Sabres Defense 2024-25 Poll

[bob_sauve28]

 

So much angst has been shown over not getting another top forward. Seems like there is a presumption that the defense is set. 

[Thorny]

There’s so much raw, exceedingly high pedigree talent on our defensive end, so much losses-turned-into-draft-capital asset value spent on our defensive group, that rightly or wrongly my mind automatically sort of goes to a “they’ll be good, or what are we even doing here, anyway?” mindset: if 1oA + 1oA + 4oA (all 3 higher draft position than any forward on team I think?) don’t amount to the strength of this team, the whole operation is shot. It’s like it necessarily needs to be taken for granted. Dallin and Power certainly need to be good enough to buoy whatever partner.

I have confidence they will. The biggest question mark always seems to be ETA: our D unit will be very good at some point I think, but is it this coming season? It’s really the only thing that matters right now

which, speaks to the difficulty of answering your poll. They are still young. At least, Power and Byram. Whether they prove ready for focal-point prime time on a playoff team THIS year probably, in my estimation, comes down to how strenuously we need the unit to be the impetus of our success: if there is balance achieved across the roster, and Dahlin isn’t running around filling in the blanks.. we should be ok

- - - 

went with the second option on polls 1 and 2, and the first option for poll 3

Edited August 29, 2024 by Thorny

[nfreeman]

Well, I voted in the majority (so far) on each one.

Regarding the 1st question -- I think right now they are just above average, but with coaching and development could become high-end.

I am less optimistic that they will become above average in physically tough to play against.  It's possible though.

 

[Getpucksdeep]

If "hard to play against" top end players that finish checks and do the little nasty things to win goes away - trying to think of current examples - maybe oveckin, crosby, landeskog, marchand, tkachuk, barkov. and the league is more Matthews, Marner, McDavid, Eichel, Reinhart, Middlestat, Panarin types. I think the Sabres are in a very good place w/ the D.  On the other hand if the hard game remains, we got all the skill to match, but when push comes to shove I don't like our chances.  Maybe, said another way, I think we look good vs Gen Z but not so much against Millennials.

[PerreaultForever]

This will not surprise anyone but until Power shows me something different I am quite skeptical about this D as a whole. 

[7+6=13]

I'm putting a lot of faith in Lindy.  Maybe too much and I know he's not the be all.  I just think it's hard to deny, he's a legitimate coach.  

I voted that we of course have above average talent.  All but Dahlin haven't realized it.  I do think we're mostly soft as a measurement of the group as a whole.  However because of the talent and Dahlin, I think they measure to above average, despite the fact it hasn't materialized on the ice.  

Power, Samuelsson Byrum and Clifton have to get better, way better.  It's a huge ask but to my original point, I trust Lindy to bring it out of them. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

The last two years this defense has been 4th worst (22/23 881) and the 6th worst (23/24 791) in HDCA and in the bottom half of the league in scoring chances in general.  Until these stats improve, this team will remain defensively challenged.  Joki, Dahlin, Power, and Samuelsson have been the core of the D group both seasons.  Clifton was added last season and was terrible defensively for the first half of the season and just average the 2nd half.  Byram was also terrible defensively after he arrived.  It's going to take some major coaching improvement to get this team to even average defensively.  Considering Marty Wilford returns as the D coach, I'm not hopeful for significant improvement.

 

Edited August 30, 2024 by GASabresIUFAN

[Dr. Who]

4 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

This will not surprise anyone but until Power shows me something different I am quite skeptical about this D as a whole. 

It's hard to vote for the first option in question 3 if you're putting great shooter and Power in the same sentence. Other aspects of his game, I am less skeptical. I think he'll get there.

40 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

The last two years this defense has been 4th worst (22/23 881) and the 6th worst (23/24 791) in HDCA and in the bottom half of the league in scoring chances in general.  Until these stats improve, this team will remain defensively challenged.  Joki, Dahlin, Power, and Samuelsson have been the core of the D group both seasons.  Clifton was added last season and was terrible defensively for the first half of the season and just average the 2nd half.  Byram was also terrible defensively after he arrived.  It's going to take some major coaching improvement to get this team to even average defensively.  Considering Marty Wilford returns as the D coach, I'm not hopeful for significant improvement.

 

I'm not as worried, because, foolish or not, I think Ruff will make a difference there.

[bob_sauve28]

15 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

This will not surprise anyone but until Power shows me something different I am quite skeptical about this D as a whole. 

I'll bet he is better this year, and will be even better the next. He's just a baby. I don't think he will ever be a heavy hitter though, but that's ok 

[LGR4GM]

35 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

I'll bet he is better this year, and will be even better the next. He's just a baby. I don't think he will ever be a heavy hitter though, but that's ok 

Tried to say what he was at draft time and was ridiculed and told I was wrong etc... Owen Power is almost exactly the player I thought. He's a solid #2/3 defender and shouldn't have been the 1st overall pick. Really hope he takes a big step this year and proves me wrong. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

7 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Tried to say what he was at draft time and was ridiculed and told I was wrong etc... Owen Power is almost exactly the player I thought. He's a solid #2/3 defender and shouldn't have been the 1st overall pick. Really hope he takes a big step this year and proves me wrong. 

…and that’s how Ruff should deploy him as Dahlin’s partner.  Let’s create a dynamic 1st pair.  Give Byram his own pair to anchor and see if he can handle it without the pressure of having to play 25 minutes a night.

Edited August 30, 2024 by GASabresIUFAN

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, bob_sauve28 said:

I'll bet he is better this year, and will be even better the next. He's just a baby. I don't think he will ever be a heavy hitter though, but that's ok 

He is and that's why I just don't know about the timeline. Ultimately I think he ends up somewhere between Tyler Myers and Alex Pietrangelo but where he is this year and whether or not he can be good enough to make this D core decent now is hard to say. 

The Ruff factor is an interesting one but with him and all the young guys any one or more of them might take a step back adjusting to what Ruff wants before leaping forward. 

No, I don't think he will ever be a heavy hitter either, but he does need to get strong enough to box out in front and win puck battles.

Right now, the health of Samuelsson is more important to this D's success than Power's timeline. At least for this season. 

[Taro T]

2 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

…and that’s how Ruff should deploy him as Dahlin’s partner.  Let’s create a dynamic 1st pair.  Give Byram his own pair to anchor and see if he can handle it without the pressure of having to play 25 minutes a night.

Ruff has said that Dahlin will be used with both Power and Samuelsson.  The rest of them'll likely get a little bit of time with him too.  But Lindy explicitly said Dahlin will be paired with multiple guys and those 2 were specifically mentioned.

[tom webster]

As I’ve said before, Power is thought of much more highly outside of Buffalo then he is on this board. Frankly, I’m not sure which side is right but it’s a thing.

[Pimlach]

Dahlin is a star player.  Power looks promising but still very young, and he needs to use the body more as has been stated here a lot.  
 

Byram?  I’m not sure yet.  

Joker is meh, ok.  Clifton adds some much needed muscle back there.  

Samuelsson may be the key.   The team lacks the physical and defensively strong stay at home guy(s), unless Samuelsson can play that game and be available more (injured less).    He very well may be the key to a stout defense.   

Watching the playoffs and seeing the intense battles in front of the net, I’m not sure we have enough physicality to get the job done in a deep playoff run.   

In summary, I think they have well above average talent on defense, but the top talent is not diversely skilled.  The addition of Byram brought in more of the same skills that he have.   They are young but very experienced for their age.  This crew should be good enough to get us to the playoffs.  

People here talk about the puck moving aspects of Dahlin, Byram, and Power - can’t wait to see what they do this season under Ruff.     Ryan Johnson, our most ready prospect on defense, can also move the puck and pass.   

 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2024 by Pimlach

[dudacek]

This is probably the most talented group of defencemen the Sabres have ever had.

I'm not sure there is a more mobile group in the league, and I expect them to be very good in transition — offensively and defensively — and in the offensive end.

Overall, they aren't nasty or disciplined enough without the puck in their own zone.

Dahlin is a stud, Jokiharju and Clifton match up well with any team's 5th and 6th defencemen, and there are capable fill-in bodies behind them.

The unit will sink or swim on what they get from Power, Byram and Samuelsson — a trio that did not play a single game together last year, and has each played 164 or less NHL career games.

Edited August 31, 2024 by dudacek

[JohnC]

17 hours ago, tom webster said:

As I’ve said before, Power is thought of much more highly outside of Buffalo then he is on this board. Frankly, I’m not sure which side is right but it’s a thing.

I'm a believer that Power is eventually going to be categorized as an elite defenseman. With tall defensemen, and players in general, it takes more time for them to develop. Hedman, and to an extent Tage, are examples of taller players getting better as they physically mature. It's my opinion that many local fans are more critical of Power than he deserves because he doesn't play an overly physical and a banger stye of game. With a little more experience this guy is going to be a gem. There was a reason why he was the first pick in his draft year. 

[bob_sauve28]

51 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I'm a believer that Power is eventually going to be categorized as an elite defenseman. With tall defensemen, and players in general, it takes more time for them to develop. Hedman, and to an extent Tage, are examples of taller players getting better as they physically mature. It's my opinion that many local fans are more critical of Power than he deserves because he doesn't play an overly physical and a banger stye of game. With a little more experience this guy is going to be a gem. There was a reason why he was the first pick in his draft year. 

Yup, Chara took awhile to become a great player 

[Pimlach]

 

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

I'm a believer that Power is eventually going to be categorized as an elite defenseman. With tall defensemen, and players in general, it takes more time for them to develop. Hedman, and to an extent Tage, are examples of taller players getting better as they physically mature. It's my opinion that many local fans are more critical of Power than he deserves because he doesn't play an overly physical and a banger stye of game. With a little more experience this guy is going to be a gem. There was a reason why he was the first pick in his draft year. 

12 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

Yup, Chara took awhile to become a great player 

I hear those tall comments a lot - there are also tall players that develop quickly or on a "normal" time frame.   Including star players.  

Power's issues have nothing to do with height and a lot to do with his age, experience, his playing style, and probably even the level of coaching he has received thus far.  His size and skill made him a dominant player prior to the NHL.  Now he has to do it in the best hockey league in the world. 

[LabattBlue]

6 hours ago, JohnC said:

I'm a believer that Power is eventually going to be categorized as an elite defenseman. With tall defensemen, and players in general, it takes more time for them to develop. Hedman, and to an extent Tage, are examples of taller players getting better as they physically mature. It's my opinion that many local fans are more critical of Power than he deserves because he doesn't play an overly physical and a banger stye of game. With a little more experience this guy is going to be a gem. There was a reason why he was the first pick in his draft year. 

I’m okay with him not being a banger, but there is no way he can play like it is a “no contact” league.   If he can’t or won’t play the body at all…then he needs to move on(IMO). 

He doesn’t need to put on 20 pounds or have years of NHL experience in order to “play the man” vs his preferred method of “stick checking”.

Edited September 1, 2024 by LabattBlue

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, Pimlach said:

 

I hear those tall comments a lot - there are also tall players that develop quickly or on a "normal" time frame.   Including star players.  

Power's issues have nothing to do with height and a lot to do with his age, experience, his playing style, and probably even the level of coaching he has received thus far.  His size and skill made him a dominant player prior to the NHL.  Now he has to do it in the best hockey league in the world. 

 

2 hours ago, LabattBlue said:

I’m okay with him not being a banger, but there is no way he can play like it is a “no contact” league.   If he can’t or won’t play the body at all…then he needs to move on(IMO). 

He doesn’t need to put on 20 pounds or have years of NHL experience in order to “play the man” vs his preferred  method of “stick checking”.

Power is a young player playing a challenging position on a top two pairing. I'm confident that he will get steadily better the more he plays. He was an elite player in college in his short stint there. That doesn't mean that the dominance he demonstrated in college will immediately translate to the NHL. Speaking for myself, he's one young player that I am not worried about. 

[LGR4GM]

Owen Power was not a dominant or elite player in college. He was very good, yes. But y'all are talking about him like he was some super star, he wasn't. He was a good defender with good production. 

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Owen Power was not a dominant or elite player in college. He was very good, yes. But y'all are talking about him like he was some super star, he wasn't. He was a good defender with good production. 

He was the consensus #1 pick prospect in that draft. No one made the claim that he was a super star in college. That's your manufactured red herring you created to argue against. In time, he's going to be an upper tier defenseman in the NHL. If you think otherwise, that's okay. Time will tell.  

 

Edited September 1, 2024 by JohnC

[dudacek]

“Elite” is a vague term.

Owen Power’s production in his 19-year-old NCAA season was 32 points in 33 games, or 0.97 points/game.

Some of his peers in comparison at 19:

• Adam Fox 0.97
• Luke Hughes 1.23
• Quinn Hughes 1.03
• Jake Sanderson 1.13
• Charlie McAvoy 0.68
• Brock Faber 0.44
• Cale Makar 0.62

Lane Hutson’s 1.29 is the best of the past 25 years. Power ranks 11th.

Edited September 1, 2024 by dudacek

[dudacek]

Power’s draft year was a much more pedestrian 0.63 p/g, behind Luke’s .95, Quinn’s .78 and Fox’s amazing 1.14 (it was against easier competition in Harvard, but how the heck did that guy last until the 3rd round?)

Power’s 17-year-old season is the 3rd best p/g over a full season by a defenceman in USHL history.