Is Adams Serious About Winning?

[Cityo'Rasmii]

 

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, HumanSlinky39 said:

I think they both want to win. Problem is, Granato doesn't know how to get these guys to play the way they need to to win. I think Adams believes in his plan and it eventually will win, but when? It seems pretty clear he's all in on building the roster with homegrown talent. Problem is, that will likely take years and you have a fanbase that's staring down a 13th consecutive season without sniffing the playoffs and there is no patience for a further prolonged rebuild.

Personally, I think the current roster, with a few tweaks, absolutely can win. Unfortunately, right now, they're saddled with a coaching staff that has no idea how to get them to play with the effort and ability they flash occasionally. We see the same ***** issues almost every game and nobody is held accountable and few changes are made...the ones that are made amount to shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic. This team is going to pass 2 months without winning back-to-back games. The special teams are a sludge fart. They come out listless and uninspired almost every game. They make the same boneheaded mistakes pretty much every game. Almost the entire roster has regressed significantly from a strong finish last season. These are all coaching issues. But, it seems like Adams is "all in" on Granato and crew. I don't see them making a move any time soon. We'll hear the same platitudes after every loss. We'll hear them blame injuries. We'll hear them say they just need to get back to work. And they'll keep taking one step forward followed by 2 steps back.

What this organization lacks is a buffer between the owner and the operational side. They have nobody to hold anybody accountable. A serious hockey organization would see this season slipping away, judge it a failure and hold the GM's feet to the fire. A serious organization would move on from Granato and be looking for a coach that can get these guys to actually play hockey. This is not a serious hockey organization.

I agree they want to win. 

[jad1]

Adams is serious about winning.  He wants to build the Sabres into a dynasty. Unfortunately, his plan to build that dynasty is batsh##t crazy.

We all get that he wants to develop the team internally and keep the cap pristine.  But we are in the 4th season of the Adams reign and the Sabres are the youngest team in the league.  That isn't progress; that's insanity.

The fault in Adam's plan is that a young player's progression isn't linear.  We know this from watching the careers of Thompson, Mittlestadt, and Dahlin.  Young players are often inconsistent and mistake-prone.  And when you liter your NHL roster with 1st, 2nd, and 3rd year players, your team is going to be inconsistent and mistake-prone.

That's why most NHL GMs block their young players path to the NHL and sign bridge players to the team.  Guys who maybe have lower ceilings than the younger players, but bring immediate experience and know-how to the roster.  Guys who play the game the right way, and understand the effort needed to win in the NHL.

Adams is terrible at adding these type of bridge players to the roster.  He places young players into key roles, and when those players suffer a regression common to a young player's progression, the team suffers.

But many might say that despite the Sabres youth, they only missed the playoffs by 1 point last season.  And sure, that's encouraging, but the team still finished 19th overall in the league.  Considering that the Sabres actually got younger this season, their drop-off from 19th to 25th isn't that surprising.  In fact, it's  kind of predictable.

And let's be clear that bringing in bridge players doesn't mean that you clear out the prospect pipeline or ruin the salary cap for the next 10 years.  It means bringing in talent a bit better than Clifton or Johnson.  It means finding a winger who can contribute on the 3rd line while your 18 year old wunderkind works on building up his strength in juniors.

It means throwing a couple of extra million at Ullmark to convince him to stay for 4 more years, giving your young goalies time and space to develop.

Adams plan to build a future dynasty has caused havoc to the franchise's current situation, but is the longer term goal still achievable?  It's hard to say.  I guess if you believe that failure and playing the game the wrong way leads to winning, it still is achievable.  But it's difficult to see that switch flipping for a team that will probably get even younger next season.

Adams does want to win.  He just has no clue how to do it.

[Scottysabres]

5 minutes ago, jad1 said:

Adams is serious about winning.  He wants to build the Sabres into a dynasty. Unfortunately, his plan to build that dynasty is batsh##t crazy.

We all get that he wants to develop the team internally and keep the cap pristine.  But we are in the 4th season of the Adams reign and the Sabres are the youngest team in the league.  That isn't progress; that's insanity.

The fault in Adam's plan is that a young player's progression isn't linear.  We know this from watching the careers of Thompson, Mittlestadt, and Dahlin.  Young players are often inconsistent and mistake-prone.  And when you liter your NHL roster with 1st, 2nd, and 3rd year players, your team is going to be inconsistent and mistake-prone.

That's why most NHL GMs block their young players path to the NHL and sign bridge players to the team.  Guys who maybe have lower ceilings than the younger players, but bring immediate experience and know-how to the roster.  Guys who play the game the right way, and understand the effort needed to win in the NHL.

Adams is terrible at adding these type of bridge players to the roster.  He places young players into key roles, and when those players suffer a regression common to a young player's progression, the team suffers.

But many might say that despite the Sabres youth, they only missed the playoffs by 1 point last season.  And sure, that's encouraging, but the team still finished 19th overall in the league.  Considering that the Sabres actually got younger this season, their drop-off from 19th to 25th isn't that surprising.  In fact, it's  kind of predictable.

And let's be clear that bringing in bridge players doesn't mean that you clear out the prospect pipeline or ruin the salary cap for the next 10 years.  It means bringing in talent a bit better than Clifton or Johnson.  It means finding a winger who can contribute on the 3rd line while your 18 year old wunderkind works on building up his strength in juniors.

It means throwing a couple of extra million at Ullmark to convince him to stay for 4 more years, giving your young goalies time and space to develop.

Adams plan to build a future dynasty has caused havoc to the franchise's current situation, but is the longer term goal still achievable?  It's hard to say.  I guess if you believe that failure and playing the game the wrong way leads to winning, it still is achievable.  But it's difficult to see that switch flipping for a team that will probably get even younger next season.

Adams does want to win.  He just has no clue how to do it.

Oh he has a clue, it's been dropped by 10's of thousands of Sabres fans near daily now. What is that clue you ask? I'm glad you asked, it's Sabres fans walking away, they've had enough. 

[Marvin]

1 hour ago, Cityo'Rasmii said:

 

Just pointing out that McEnroe was a whiner, but he was 100% right on this one.  He had 100-0 calls go against him every now and then at Wimbledon.  It was embarrassing for tennis.

[nfreeman]

I think the most likely outcome is that the Sabres stink for the rest of the year, DM is fired (but not KA) and a real coach with a legit NHL resume is brought in over the summer.  If we're very lucky it will be Brind'Amour.

But the rest of this season will be painful.

[French Collection]

I think he is serious about winning.

His problem was running back the same team that just missed and hoping growth would push them over the edge.

It’s been mentioned a million times how goaltending was not addressed and this has been a major issue.

Leadership is another issue imo, KO shows these young guys how to be good people but he can’t teach them how to win because he has never had success in a long NHL career. He may also lack the hardness to call out teammates.

DG is great in a developmental role but he seems to lack the toughness to make people accountable for poor play. I think it is too late to make the playoffs this year and KA keeps him around provided they stay close to .500.

I would give KA another year but he needs to make impactful changes or get the f*** out.

[French Collection]

3 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

I think the most likely outcome is that the Sabres stink for the rest of the year, DM is fired (but not KA) and a real coach with a legit NHL resume is brought in over the summer.  If we're very lucky it will be Brind'Amour.

But the rest of this season will be painful.

Brind’Amour would be great, he may have gotten a bit stale in Carolina and want a change too.

Hopefully he convinces KA to part with some of his precious smurfs and bring in a few vets who have won and play the right way.

I enjoy the swashbuckling high scoring games but they need to have a clue on playing defense and stand up for each other.

[GoPuckYourself]

I lost my faith in Adams last season when he chose development over a chance to make the playoffs in 13 seasons. I thought there were several goalies we could have went after and there were some good, defensive defensmen also and our only pickup was Greenway. This guy isn't a winner imo and Granato has lost the team completely, every time we lose he has a built in excuse with no direction or answer. If we wait until the end of season to let these guys go I think it could really impact the youth on this team. Why in the world would Pegula extend these guys for multiple years without even making the playoffs yet? It baffles me completely!

[Marvin]

13 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

I think the most likely outcome is that the Sabres stink for the rest of the year, DM is fired (but not KA) and a real coach with a legit NHL resume is brought in over the summer.  If we're very lucky it will be Brind'Amour.

But the rest of this season will be painful.

If Danger Mouse is fired, what happens to Colonel K and Penfold?

[Cityo'Rasmii]

[Spoonman]

What did you say!? Serious?!

 

 

 

[LGR4GM]

17 hours ago, French Collection said:

I think he is serious about winning.

His problem was running back the same team that just missed and hoping growth would push them over the edge.

It’s been mentioned a million times how goaltending was not addressed and this has been a major issue.

Leadership is another issue imo, KO shows these young guys how to be good people but he can’t teach them how to win because he has never had success in a long NHL career. He may also lack the hardness to call out teammates.

DG is great in a developmental role but he seems to lack the toughness to make people accountable for poor play. I think it is too late to make the playoffs this year and KA keeps him around provided they stay close to .500.

I would give KA another year but he needs to make impactful changes or get the f*** out.

That's a ***** hilarious thing to write about Okposo. It's also bull hockey. Okposo might not be able to push them further as a leader, but to say he hasn't had success in his career is laughable. 

I agree with the rest here. 

[sabremike]

18 hours ago, nfreeman said:

I think the most likely outcome is that the Sabres stink for the rest of the year, DM is fired (but not KA) and a real coach with a legit NHL resume is brought in over the summer.  If we're very lucky it will be Brind'Amour.

But the rest of this season will be painful.

The chance of this happening is -459.67: Absolute zero.

[French Collection]

48 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

That's a ***** hilarious thing to write about Okposo. It's also bull hockey. Okposo might not be able to push them further as a leader, but to say he hasn't had success in his career is laughable. 

I agree with the rest here. 

I should have said playoff success. He has only played 24 playoff games in 16 years, 2 first round exits and one season in the second round. 3 years out of 17 in the playoffs if you count this one.

[Archie Lee]

18 minutes ago, sabremike said:

The chance of this happening is -459.67: Absolute zero.

Brind'Amour?  Or any experienced coach?  

Brind'Amour is a long shot I agree.  Not absolute zero but near zero.  

There would be experienced coaches willing to come to Buffalo though, I'm certain of that.  There are currently three coaches available who coached in the NHL playoffs last season (Gallant, Woodcroft and Evason), a guy who won a Stanley Cup 5 years ago (Berube).  Some will get snapped up by other teams of course, but there will be more who join the list of unemployed (the list of high-end coaches who may be vulnerable to being fired after an early playoff exit is actually pretty long). There won't be enough chairs for everyone.  If we want an experienced coach with a history of 45+ win playoff seasons, we will get one so long as we are willing to let Donnie go and pay what it would cost to bring in an experienced winner.  

 

[sabresouth]

The length of this thread tells you all you need to know.

No one doubts he wants to win. But how serious is he really. No real additions in this past off season. Not even gonna start about the goalie thingy. 

Anyone serious about winning is willing to make changes when needed, not late or maybe never in KA's instance. 

[PASabreFan]

43 minutes ago, sabresouth said:

The length of this thread tells you all you need to know.

No one doubts he wants to win. But how serious is he really. No real additions in this past off season. Not even gonna start about the goalie thingy. 

Anyone serious about winning is willing to make changes when needed, not late or maybe never in KA's instance. 

That's all that ever needed to be said. No one is impugning his desire to win. Strategically for whatever reason he is not serious about it right now.

[Archie Lee]

I started this thought in the Olivier Nadeau thread, and then realized it maybe belonged more here.

Nadeau being assigned to the ECHL is not remarkable.  I'm not personally too concerned with the fate of any particular prospect. Nadeau will get ice-time and hopefully he finds a role in Rochester next year. His situation does though, perhaps, speak to the issue of us having too many prospects.  This is particularly the case when one considers how young our current base of NHL players is.

Barring a trade or two and assuming none of our UFA forwards are brought back, 10 of our 12 forward positions are spoken for next year.  The two open positions would be 4th line wingers flanking Krebs. If we bump Greenway to the 4th line, that opens one middle-6 forward spot.  Only Greenway is a UFA after next season. 

We have, I think, 5 prospects (aside from Benson, who I still consider a prospect) who project as top-9 forwards. Again, barring trades, and assuming not all will develop as hoped, we won't have room for all of them at the NHL level.  This is even taking into account that their arrivals can be staggered over the next 2-3 years. Never mind the reality that adding a couple of 20-21 year old forwards to what is already the NHL's youngest roster, is not exactly what the Sabres need if they are trying to become a playoff team.

What's the point of this post? If the Sabres don't even have room for their top forward prospects, what space is left for the B, C and D level prospects to develop?  There is no oxygen left for Rousek, Nadeau, Poltapov, Cederqvist, Neuchev, Kisakov, Marjala, Huglen, Constantini, Richard, ..., etc.. Of course, the odds of any one of these players developing into a middle-6 NHL player is not high.  But there is no room for them here, even if they do. 

Is Adams serious about winning?  I think he is.  The path to getting there is becoming harder to find though.

 

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by Archie Lee

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, Archie Lee said:

I started this thought in the Olivier Nadeau thread, and then realized it maybe belonged more here.

Nadeau being assigned to the ECHL is not remarkable.  I'm not personally too concerned with the fate of any particular prospect. Nadeau will get ice-time and hopefully he finds a role in Rochester next year. His situation does though, perhaps, speak to the issue of us having too many prospects.  This is particularly the case when one considers how young our current base of NHL players is.

Barring a trade or two and assuming none of our UFA forwards are brought back, 10 of our 12 forward positions are spoken for next year.  The two open positions would be 4th line wingers flanking Krebs. If we bump Greenway to the 4th line, that opens one middle-6 forward spot.  Only Greenway is a UFA after next season. 

We have, I think, 5 prospects (aside from Benson, who I still consider a prospect) who project as top-9 forwards. Again, barring trades, and assuming not all will develop as hoped, we won't have room for all of them at the NHL level.  This is even taking into account that there arrivals can be staggered over the next 2-3 years. Never mind the reality that adding a couple of 20-21 year old forwards to what is already the NHL's youngest roster, is not exactly what the Sabres need if they are trying to become a playoff team.

What's the point of this post? If the Sabres don't even have room for their top forward prospects, what space is left for the B, C and D level prospects to develop?  There is no oxygen left for Rousek, Nadeau, Poltapov, Cederqvist, Neuchev, Kisakov, Marjala, Huglen, Constantini, Richard, ..., etc.. Of course, the odds of any one of these players developing into a middle-6 NHL player is not high.  But there is no room for them here, even if they do. 

Is Adams serious about winning?  I think he is.  The path to getting there is becoming harder to find though.

 

 

Idk who your 5 prospects are but pick 2 of them and assume they don't stick in the NHL. It's likely that 2 of Savoie, Rosen, Östlund, and Kulich don't make it long term. 

[Archie Lee]

8 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Idk who your 5 prospects are but pick 2 of them and assume they don't stick in the NHL. It's likely that 2 of Savoie, Rosen, Östlund, and Kulich don't make it long term. 

My 5th would be Wahlberg.  

I understand that they all won't make it longterm.  But if the plan is to just let it play out and see which ones make it and which ones fall by the wayside, then we have a long road ahead of us.

[Pimlach]

20 hours ago, nfreeman said:

I think the most likely outcome is that the Sabres stink for the rest of the year, DM is fired (but not KA) and a real coach with a legit NHL resume is brought in over the summer.  If we're very lucky it will be Brind'Amour.

But the rest of this season will be painful.

The “show me” part is bringing in a real coach. A real NHL coach will want some say in the roster and will want to move things along faster because a real coach knows his job is almost always on the line.  
 

RB’A is not leaving Raleigh for Buffalo.  I can’t see it. 

[sabremike]

6 hours ago, Archie Lee said:

Brind'Amour?  Or any experienced coach?  

Brind'Amour is a long shot I agree.  Not absolute zero but near zero.  

There would be experienced coaches willing to come to Buffalo though, I'm certain of that.  There are currently three coaches available who coached in the NHL playoffs last season (Gallant, Woodcroft and Evason), a guy who won a Stanley Cup 5 years ago (Berube).  Some will get snapped up by other teams of course, but there will be more who join the list of unemployed (the list of high-end coaches who may be vulnerable to being fired after an early playoff exit is actually pretty long). There won't be enough chairs for everyone.  If we want an experienced coach with a history of 45+ win playoff seasons, we will get one so long as we are willing to let Donnie go and pay what it would cost to bring in an experienced winner.  

 

Would you work for an organization that has a GM whose only qualification for the job was being a loyal sycophant of the least successful owner in hockey history? 

[Sidc3000]

https://www.thescore.com/nhl/news/2807951

 

Sabres GM: 'I understand frustration, but I truly believe in this group'

I understand frustration, but I truly believe in this group. I truly believe in the players, and I also believe that we will come out the other side better for it. It's adversity, it's frustration, and we need to push through."

In terms of my belief in Donnie Granato, I have a lot of faith in him," he said. "I have a lot of trust in him. He's one of those types of coaches that he looks at every situation to how he can help individual players perform at their best and then how do we get (there) collectively as a team?

 

 

[Thorny]

8 minutes ago, Sidc3000 said:

https://www.thescore.com/nhl/news/2807951

 

Sabres GM: 'I understand frustration, but I truly believe in this group'

I understand frustration, but I truly believe in this group. I truly believe in the players, and I also believe that we will come out the other side better for it. It's adversity, it's frustration, and we need to push through."

In terms of my belief in Donnie Granato, I have a lot of faith in him," he said. "I have a lot of trust in him. He's one of those types of coaches that - …wait, hold on a moment….WE GOT HIM?! We got Matt Irwin??

 

 

Ftfy