Around the NHL 2023-24 Season

[FrenchConnection44]

12 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

I agree with you.

With Cozens my biggest complaint is he doesn't know when to pull back on being aggressive. He is always chasing the puck, and when you are a center and you vacate your zone in coverage, you are leaving a big gaping hole in the center of the ice for the other team in prime scoring position. Plus as you said, he is good on the wall and likes to go there.

To me he would be a good winger, and right now his defensive zone coverage is pretty bad at center, It could be a win-win moving him to wing.

I still think Cozens should be a C. 
 

I think his problems this year have been Granato - the way he’s been used. 
 

Cozens is the best face off center on the team (some don’t think that matters, but possession matters for chances, imo). He was our best two way C last year. 
 

But last year he was paired mostly with Quinn and Peterka - rookies - and they formed a good line. With much better potential til Quinn got injured. I don’t like the pairings he’s been given this year. It seems Granato just does not know what to do with half (or more) the forwards on the team. I don’t have a problem with Cozens doing some dirty work on the boards. He still scored 31 goals last year and he can set up teammates. He’s not really a sniper.  

We went from a team with a solid first two lines and potential for a 3rd solid line with young talent waiting in the wings and on their way up to add more scoring … to a team with very little line identity and inconsistent scoring. That’s not the only trouble with this team. But it’s one of them. I just don’t think the staff knows what to do with these players. I don’t dislike Granato. He’s been good for the players. But if play continues this way, he’s going to rightfully take much of the blame. 
 

 

[dudacek]

You guys know that Quinn and Peterka were 30-something-point 3rd-liners last year and that Cozens got half his points playing with other people?

Is “Granato doesn’t know how to use him” code for “he’s had to play some games with Olofsson”?

Because in terms of when and how he’s being deployed, not much has changed.

[mjd1001]

10 hours ago, Broken Ankles said:

   San Jose is now tied with Edmonton after their win tonight.  Two in a row after Mike Grier rattled some cages in the dressing room.  McKenzie Blackwood played great.  Skinner, not so much, giving up 3 on 18 shots. The Sharks PK held the Oil scoreless on 4 chances.  Could be some broken LCD’s in Edmonton tonight.

Edmonton might be the biggest story in the NHL now, or for the last few years:

-They have the leagues consensus best player, and another who is considered a top 5 player by many.

-Those 2 guys were the #1 and #2  scorers in the league last year...over the last 3 years...and the past 5 years. Both are not right in the prime of their careers and should be as good as ever.

-They have no major injuries, no key players who are out of the lineup long term.

-Its not for lack of spending, they are right up against the cap, using just about every dollar they have to fill out the roster.

-This team has had over 100 points 2 seasons in a row. They lost last year in the 2nd round to the eventual cup winners, and 2 seasons ago made it to the conference finals before losing to the eventual cup winner.

-Pre-season better odds had the public placing bets on them with their over/under points at 104-107 points. Many preview publications and web sites had them at about 110 points and favorites to make the cup out of the west.

-This team still has pretty much the same roster. The minutes on Defense are pretty much the same as last year with the same 4 guys getting the most minutes, for the most part the same up front.  They started with the same goaltending duo.

Looking at their stats (and watching 1.5 of their games), goaltending is the easiest thing to blame.  But, is the goaltending just been THAT bad? or is the team in front of them playing that poorly making things so hard on the goaltenders?  Either way, they are not only the 2nd or 3rd worst team in allowing goals, they are also the 4th from the bottom in goals scored.

I think they are going to turn this around. I see little reason why they can't, but how that team and fansbase must feel after losing to San Jose last night, it might be the biggest 'low' compared to the where they expected to be just a month ago.

Edited November 10, 2023 by mjd1001

[Taro T]

38 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

Edmonton might be the biggest story in the NHL now, or for the last few years:

-They have the leagues consensus best player, and another who is considered a top 5 player by many.

-Those 2 guys were the #1 and #2  scorers in the league last year...over the last 3 years...and the past 5 years. Both are not right in the prime of their careers and should be as good as ever.

-They have no major injuries, no key players who are out of the lineup long term.

-Its not for lack of spending, they are right up against the cap, using just about every dollar they have to fill out the roster.

-This team has had over 100 points 2 seasons in a row. They lost last year in the 2nd round to the eventual cup winners, and 2 seasons ago made it to the conference finals before losing to the eventual cup winner.

-Pre-season better odds had the public placing bets on them with their over/under points at 104-107 points. Many preview publications and web sites had them at about 110 points and favorites to make the cup out of the west.

-This team still has pretty much the same roster. The minutes on Defense are pretty much the same as last year with the same 4 guys getting the most minutes, for the most part the same up front.  They started with the same goaltending duo.

Looking at their stats (and watching 1.5 of their games), goaltending is the easiest thing to blame.  But, is the goaltending just been THAT bad? or is the team in front of them playing that poorly making things so hard on the goaltenders?  Either way, they are not only the 2nd or 3rd worst team in allowing goals, they are also the 4th from the bottom in goals scored.

I think they are going to turn this around. I see little reason why they can't, but how that team and fansbase must feel after losing to San Jose last night, it might be the biggest 'low' compared to the where they expected to be just a month ago.

MHO, it's as simple as the Eulers have always (well, ever since Muckler left) been bad at drafting anywhere outside the top 5 picks (and even those are hit or miss more than they should be), so they have very little support for the Big Two, and Skinner, while a nice story last year, was a mirage.  Maybe he becomes as good as he was getting credit for being last year; but the league is littered with 1 hit wonders in net, expect there's a better chance he's another than he'll be able to pull a Carter Hart and get back to his early pro self after a couple of down years.

[DarthEbriate]

The Oilers are sackin' for Macklin. I mean, Draisaitl and McDavid are quite possibly going to walk out of the darkness for their next contracts, and the Oilers need a #1 overall in the lineup. However, they'll need to trade for Taylor Hall to ensure they win the lottery.

[Marvin]

26 minutes ago, DarthEbriate said:

The Oilers are sackin' for Macklin. I mean, Draisaitl and McDavid are quite possibly going to walk out of the darkness for their next contracts, and the Oilers need a #1 overall in the lineup. However, they'll need to trade for Taylor Hall to ensure they win the lottery.

RNH for Taylor Hall?

[DarthEbriate]

11 minutes ago, Marvin said:

RNH for Taylor Hall?

I was mostly in jest, but if I'm Chicago I retain salary and ask for futures. All the pricey players on EDM have NMCs and they'll want them to try to resurrect the season.

Chicago's timeline is tied to Bedard and they have veterans that can hold together for a couple years for the "how-to". Retain $3M, take one salary back (Fogele+a prospect, Jack Campbell?), and then get some picks. Lottery protected 2024 1st (in case the Hall-gambit works) and some other picks that people can quibble over (a 2nd and a 4th or whatever).

But in reality, if I'm Chicago I keep Hall for my own 2024 #1 double-dip purposes. Bedard and Celebrini would be OK.

[nfreeman]

6 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

Edmonton might be the biggest story in the NHL now, or for the last few years:

-They have the leagues consensus best player, and another who is considered a top 5 player by many.

-Those 2 guys were the #1 and #2  scorers in the league last year...over the last 3 years...and the past 5 years. Both are not right in the prime of their careers and should be as good as ever.

-They have no major injuries, no key players who are out of the lineup long term.

-Its not for lack of spending, they are right up against the cap, using just about every dollar they have to fill out the roster.

-This team has had over 100 points 2 seasons in a row. They lost last year in the 2nd round to the eventual cup winners, and 2 seasons ago made it to the conference finals before losing to the eventual cup winner.

-Pre-season better odds had the public placing bets on them with their over/under points at 104-107 points. Many preview publications and web sites had them at about 110 points and favorites to make the cup out of the west.

-This team still has pretty much the same roster. The minutes on Defense are pretty much the same as last year with the same 4 guys getting the most minutes, for the most part the same up front.  They started with the same goaltending duo.

Looking at their stats (and watching 1.5 of their games), goaltending is the easiest thing to blame.  But, is the goaltending just been THAT bad? or is the team in front of them playing that poorly making things so hard on the goaltenders?  Either way, they are not only the 2nd or 3rd worst team in allowing goals, they are also the 4th from the bottom in goals scored.

I think they are going to turn this around. I see little reason why they can't, but how that team and fansbase must feel after losing to San Jose last night, it might be the biggest 'low' compared to the where they expected to be just a month ago.

Great post.  I would just add that Edmonton is now 2-9-1!  That is freaking terrible. 

[PerreaultForever]

10 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Get back to me when we're healthy and doing it. You have no logic behind your Mitts panic. Dude's BFF is Dahlin and he's been given lots of love by this staff and coach. The reason other teams don't run 3 offensive lines is because they can't. A shutdown line is cheaper. I also think it's a fallacy to assume a scoring line can't be a shutdown line. 

 

Now you're back to the original point. I simply think it is going to be difficult, if not impossible to have 3 top level centers and be cap compliant down the road. I'm thinking ahead. Mitts has elevated his play and may now want Cozens type money. If we give it to him, that's a lot of money for whichever player ends up being the 3C. 

Shutdown works, and in a cap era, it's necessary. Partly yes, because it's cheaper. 

[sabresparaavida]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

Now you're back to the original point. I simply think it is going to be difficult, if not impossible to have 3 top level centers and be cap compliant down the road. I'm thinking ahead. Mitts has elevated his play and may now want Cozens type money. If we give it to him, that's a lot of money for whichever player ends up being the 3C. 

Shutdown works, and in a cap era, it's necessary. Partly yes, because it's cheaper. 

It is difficult to have 3 top level centers, easier if you have 2 for 14 mil. If you can lock up Mitts at 7 mil, you do it IMO. It’s not as if any of them will be a typical 3C, they’re all going to be getting top 6 minutes, and it gives us a chance of having 3 effective scoring lines. We have plenty of young talented wingers in the system that won’t be breaking the bank for the next handful of years (Quinn, Peterka, Savoie, Rosen, Kulich, Benson). And all 3 of Thompson, Cozens and Mitts can play wing. 
Toronto has had Matthews and Tavares together at a more expensive rate than Thompson, Cozens and Mitts would be (if he signed the Cozens contract). 

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, sabresparaavida said:

It is difficult to have 3 top level centers, easier if you have 2 for 14 mil. If you can lock up Mitts at 7 mil, you do it IMO. It’s not as if any of them will be a typical 3C, they’re all going to be getting top 6 minutes, and it gives us a chance of having 3 effective scoring lines. We have plenty of young talented wingers in the system that won’t be breaking the bank for the next handful of years (Quinn, Peterka, Savoie, Rosen, Kulich, Benson). And all 3 of Thompson, Cozens and Mitts can play wing. 
Toronto has had Matthews and Tavares together at a more expensive rate than Thompson, Cozens and Mitts would be (if he signed the Cozens contract). 

I might try to sign Mitts to something like 5x6.5 and see if he'll bite. 

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, sabresparaavida said:

It is difficult to have 3 top level centers, easier if you have 2 for 14 mil. If you can lock up Mitts at 7 mil, you do it IMO. It’s not as if any of them will be a typical 3C, they’re all going to be getting top 6 minutes, and it gives us a chance of having 3 effective scoring lines. We have plenty of young talented wingers in the system that won’t be breaking the bank for the next handful of years (Quinn, Peterka, Savoie, Rosen, Kulich, Benson). And all 3 of Thompson, Cozens and Mitts can play wing. 
Toronto has had Matthews and Tavares together at a more expensive rate than Thompson, Cozens and Mitts would be (if he signed the Cozens contract). 

That's the problem though right. Half the cap on 5 guys is Toronto's problem. Their bottom end is garbage. We'd end up the same only in our case 2 D and 3 forwards rather than 4 forwards and 1 D. Same problem though. Unless you cap cheat like Tampa and Vegas did it's a formula that doesn't work. 

The window provided by the ELCs will be short and unsustainable when we need it the most. I can see us having cap trouble right around the same time we might become a legit cup contender and that could derail the whole thing. Again, I'm thinking ahead. 

[sabresparaavida]

18 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

That's the problem though right. Half the cap on 5 guys is Toronto's problem. Their bottom end is garbage. We'd end up the same only in our case 2 D and 3 forwards rather than 4 forwards and 1 D. Same problem though. Unless you cap cheat like Tampa and Vegas did it's a formula that doesn't work. 

The window provided by the ELCs will be short and unsustainable when we need it the most. I can see us having cap trouble right around the same time we might become a legit cup contender and that could derail the whole thing. Again, I'm thinking ahead. 

Toronto didn’t have the prospect pool that the Sabres have. they have enough talent coming up to have three skilled scoring lines in the future. If one of the young players (Quinn or Peterka) breaks out to where you can’t afford him, do a Kevin Fiala style trade to reload the prospect pool and keep depth. And we may not even need to move one of them, with Skinner coming off the books shortly after they need their next contracts.
 

This would also be locking them up early with a rising cap. At the time of the Tavares signing, Matthews and Tavares accounted for 27% of the cap. With projections for next year, Mitts at 7 mil, Thompson and Cozens would be ~24% of the cap at the time of signing  for 3 players which is significantly better. 

[Taro T]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I might try to sign Mitts to something like 5x6.5 and see if he'll bite. 

IF he were willing to sign for that, expect that he'd already be signed.  He's going to get Thompson/Cozens money soon or he'll be eclipsing them in a couple of years.  It's in the Sabres best interest to get him onto a Cozens-esque deal.

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, sabresparaavida said:

Toronto didn’t have the prospect pool that the Sabres have. they have enough talent coming up to have three skilled scoring lines in the future. If one of the young players (Quinn or Peterka) breaks out to where you can’t afford him, do a Kevin Fiala style trade to reload the prospect pool and keep depth. And we may not even need to move one of them, with Skinner coming off the books shortly after they need their next contracts.
 

This would also be locking them up early with a rising cap. At the time of the Tavares signing, Matthews and Tavares accounted for 27% of the cap. With projections for next year, Mitts at 7 mil, Thompson and Cozens would be ~24% of the cap at the time of signing  for 3 players which is significantly better. 

If you talk about Matthews you have to include Dahlin (best player on each team) for the comparison. 

The prospect pool is just a pool until that water freezes over and they can skate on it. Savoie didn't impress me tonight at all. Definitely not at Benson's level right now. Yes, it was the first time I saw him play in the NHL but it's just what it is until it changes. You know prospect pools are a funny thing. Bruins were supposed to have the worst one in the league (and it still might be ranked that way) but they have 3 prospects in the line up and they are all playing very good. Until Rosen or Kulich or whoever comes up and contributes they are just wish fulfillment. 

But back to the point, I have said many times what you call the Kevin Fiala type trade at some point is inevitable. Have to hope they keep the right guys and make the right trade(s) when that moment comes.

[Taro T]

44 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

If you talk about Matthews you have to include Dahlin (best player on each team) for the comparison. 

The prospect pool is just a pool until that water freezes over and they can skate on it. Savoie didn't impress me tonight at all. Definitely not at Benson's level right now. Yes, it was the first time I saw him play in the NHL but it's just what it is until it changes. You know prospect pools are a funny thing. Bruins were supposed to have the worst one in the league (and it still might be ranked that way) but they have 3 prospects in the line up and they are all playing very good. Until Rosen or Kulich or whoever comes up and contributes they are just wish fulfillment. 

But back to the point, I have said many times what you call the Kevin Fiala type trade at some point is inevitable. Have to hope they keep the right guys and make the right trade(s) when that moment comes.

3 prospects in the lineup and all playing very well you say?  Sounds an awful lot like Levi, Benson (when healthy), and Johnson.  😉

[PerreaultForever]

37 minutes ago, Taro T said:

3 prospects in the lineup and all playing very well you say?  Sounds an awful lot like Levi, Benson (when healthy), and Johnson.  😉

I'm not saying we don't have more prospects than them, that's not the point. The point is how many do you need to be good. They filled the holes they had. That's all you ever need. 

 

[LGR4GM]

17 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I'm not saying we don't have more prospects than them, that's not the point. The point is how many do you need to be good. They filled the holes they had. That's all you ever need. 

 

The Bruins have 1 playing good. Maybe 2 if you count Lohrei but Poitras is the only one playing better than a Sabres prospect. 

[Weave]

What would you give up for Nikita?

Hey!  Twitter imbed actually worked!

[Curt]

9 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

That's the problem though right. Half the cap on 5 guys is Toronto's problem. Their bottom end is garbage. We'd end up the same only in our case 2 D and 3 forwards rather than 4 forwards and 1 D. Same problem though. Unless you cap cheat like Tampa and Vegas did it's a formula that doesn't work. 

The window provided by the ELCs will be short and unsustainable when we need it the most. I can see us having cap trouble right around the same time we might become a legit cup contender and that could derail the whole thing. Again, I'm thinking ahead. 

I think about the cap as much as anyone, but you are honest way overstating this as an issue.

Having their top 5 players locked up at around $40M for the next several years is a good cap position.  It’s not an abnormally large amount.  It’s difficult to find a good team this year that has their top 5 for less than 40 (there are a couple, but not many).  A few years from now that $40M for a top 5 would actually be an asset, not a hindrance.

It has been an issue for Toronto the past few years, but do you know what they have actually been paying their guys?  Their top 5 has been making $48M for the past few years.  Compare that to what the Sabres are looking at.  ~$40M for the next several years as the cap rises sharply.  The two situations really are not in the same ballpark.

Before you continue to repeat this position over and over, please look closely at the cap #s of other team’s top 5.  Go look at all the good teams.  How many of them actually have their top 5 for less than $40M?  How many of them project to maintain that for the next several years?

[Scottysabres]

2 hours ago, Weave said:

What would you give up for Nikita?

Hey!  Twitter imbed actually worked!

Doesn't he want a longterm deal? Can he stay healthy?

 

[Archie Lee]

22 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

Edmonton might be the biggest story in the NHL now, or for the last few years:

-They have the leagues consensus best player, and another who is considered a top 5 player by many.

-Those 2 guys were the #1 and #2  scorers in the league last year...over the last 3 years...and the past 5 years. Both are not right in the prime of their careers and should be as good as ever.

-They have no major injuries, no key players who are out of the lineup long term.

-Its not for lack of spending, they are right up against the cap, using just about every dollar they have to fill out the roster.

-This team has had over 100 points 2 seasons in a row. They lost last year in the 2nd round to the eventual cup winners, and 2 seasons ago made it to the conference finals before losing to the eventual cup winner.

-Pre-season better odds had the public placing bets on them with their over/under points at 104-107 points. Many preview publications and web sites had them at about 110 points and favorites to make the cup out of the west.

-This team still has pretty much the same roster. The minutes on Defense are pretty much the same as last year with the same 4 guys getting the most minutes, for the most part the same up front.  They started with the same goaltending duo.

Looking at their stats (and watching 1.5 of their games), goaltending is the easiest thing to blame.  But, is the goaltending just been THAT bad? or is the team in front of them playing that poorly making things so hard on the goaltenders?  Either way, they are not only the 2nd or 3rd worst team in allowing goals, they are also the 4th from the bottom in goals scored.

I think they are going to turn this around. I see little reason why they can't, but how that team and fansbase must feel after losing to San Jose last night, it might be the biggest 'low' compared to the where they expected to be just a month ago.

This is an anecdotal observation from a random Oiler game from last season that I happened to catch a portion of.  The Oilers were playing in Columbus in late February.  With 6-7 minutes left they were trailing 6-4.  McDavid and Draisaitl were taking extended double-shifts.  They eventually made the score 6-5.  The Oilers called a time-out with a minute or so left.  When they showed the Oiler bench during the time out, with the exception of the guys who were on the ice trying to get the tying goal, it was a collection of the most disinterested looking players I have seen.  Nobody was into it. Nobody was standing up encouraging the guys on the ice. Guys looked entirely uninvested in the proceedings. I recall seeing one of them yawn.  They looked like a group of guys who knew they had no role. The team would win or lose with how well McDavid and Draisaitl played and the rest of them were there to fill out the bottom half of the roster. 

Speculation is that McDavid is battling an injury.  If he is not rolling at near 100%, I don't think there is a culture there that will see the team rally.  

[French Collection]

2 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

This is an anecdotal observation from a random Oiler game from last season that I happened to catch a portion of.  The Oilers were playing in Columbus in late February.  With 6-7 minutes left they were trailing 6-4.  McDavid and Draisaitl were taking extended double-shifts.  They eventually made the score 6-5.  The Oilers called a time-out with a minute or so left.  When they showed the Oiler bench during the time out, with the exception of the guys who were on the ice trying to get the tying goal, it was a collection of the most disinterested looking players I have seen.  Nobody was into it. Nobody was standing up encouraging the guys on the ice. Guys looked entirely uninvested in the proceedings. I recall seeing one of them yawn.  They looked like a group of guys who knew they had no role. The team would win or lose with how well McDavid and Draisaitl played and the rest of them were there to fill out the bottom half of the roster. 

Speculation is that McDavid is battling an injury.  If he is not rolling at near 100%, I don't think there is a culture there that will see the team rally.  

Interesting observations.

Vegas rolling 4 lines and 3 pairs keeps everyone engaged, and healthier. Not everyone has that depth though.

2 superstars getting most of the playing time is more of an NBA model than the NHL.

[Archie Lee]

Just now, French Collection said:

Interesting observations.

Vegas rolling 4 lines and 3 pairs keeps everyone engaged, and healthier. Not everyone has that depth though.

2 superstars getting most of the playing time is more of an NBA model than the NHL.

It's true.  The Oilers don't have the VGK depth.  When I watched that game I remember thinking that the Oilers were a lock to be a playoff team and here they are playing an afternoon game in Columbus, a non-conference rival, and they are pushing McDavid and Draisaitl in the final half of the 3rd period like the game was do or die. It seemed like a great opportunity to give some other players a chance to step-up.  I don't mean that they shouldn't have had McDavid or Draisaitl on the ice at the end of the game, but it was odd to me that leading up to that moment they chose to almost entirely lean on their big two and deny the team a more collective stake in the outcome. 

[mjd1001]

12 minutes ago, French Collection said:

Interesting observations.

Vegas rolling 4 lines and 3 pairs keeps everyone engaged, and healthier. Not everyone has that depth though.

2 superstars getting most of the playing time is more of an NBA model than the NHL.

Judging by the recent comments Granato made, and ice time usage when they are able to, I think the Sabres are going for the "roll 3 lines equally and 2 D-pair equally" strategy.

Not like vegas as you said that rolls everyone out there almost equally, but also not to the other extreme like Edmonton with one top line and then everyone falling in behind.  I really think of Granato had his wish he would not have a 'top line' but he would have 3 lines almost perfectly balanced.  No 'top' line forwards get over 20 minutes per game....but even the third line gets 18+ minutes.