Backup goaltending: what do we really think about the situation in the crease?

[French Collection]

1 hour ago, FrenchConnection44 said:

I do think the defensive upgrades and another year of maturity of our young defenders will help a ton! I thought the D was a big problem with our giving up so many goals last season. 

Just not having Bryson on the ice should cut down on about 10 goals against. There’s probably an analytical tracking for that but my guess is probably in the ballpark. The other part of the equation is replacing him with someone better, which is happening.

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I'll amend my previous post with this question.  If Calgary, who has Vlader and Wolf waiting in the wings, is willing to move on from Markstrom, would you be interested?  Would KA be interested?  Would Markstrom waive his NMC to come to Buffalo?

Markstrom has 3 years left at $6 mill per season in cap ($20 mill in real $).  He has been solid up until last season when his Gaa jumped to 2.92 with a .892 save % in 59 games.  He was excellent the year prior with a 2.22 and a .922 in 63 games.   If interested, what would it cost?  The Flames have a full roster and 2.4 mill in cap space.  Markstrom is 33.

Calgary is motivated to move Markstrom as they could use the cap space and they really want to make a spot for Wolf. Markstrom is really the perfect guy for us. Older but not too old, not so great he blocks Levi, but 2-3 years is perfect for developing Levi. I would be very happy if we found a way to add Markstrom.

The idea of giving them our garbage (VO) to make it happen is just too silly to comment on in depth. People seem to think opposing GMs want to lose their jobs. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

6 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Calgary is motivated to move Markstrom as they could use the cap space and they really want to make a spot for Wolf. Markstrom is really the perfect guy for us. Older but not too old, not so great he blocks Levi, but 2-3 years is perfect for developing Levi. I would be very happy if we found a way to add Markstrom.

The idea of giving them our garbage (VO) to make it happen is just too silly to comment on in depth. People seem to think opposing GMs want to lose their jobs. 

VO isn’t garbage, but it’s a little hard to gauge Markstrom’s value given his age, NMC, salary, and disappointing play last year. How much is someone worth who is viewed as a cap dump and can choose his destination?

[dudacek]

6 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

VO isn’t garbage, but it’s a little hard to gauge Markstrom’s value given his age, NMC, salary, and disappointing play last year. How much is someone worth who is viewed as a cap dump and can choose his destination?

I’ll say it again. In this millennium, no goalie has ever been traded for more than the 9th overall pick.

That goalie had a reasonable contract, was coming off back-to-back outstanding years as a backup and was entering his prime.

If there has been a veteran goalie traded for more value than Darcy Kuemper or Ryan Miller’s (roughly) late 1st and a B prospect, I don’t remember it.

[LGR4GM]

16 hours ago, dudacek said:

This is why we cant find a goalie.

Over the past 3 years, Markstrom is objectively a good NHL starting goalie. He’s 6th in the league in wins, 20th in s % and 11th in GAA.

And we won’t pay more for him than Riley Stillman and a goalie we’re terrified to let play 30 games.

There’s like 5 goalies Sabrefans want and none we’re willing to give up anything for.

He's a goalie, they want cap relief, that's the market for goalies, and they want Wolf and Vlader as their 1-2punch in net. UPL gives them a chip or allows them to slow play Wolf for 1 more season (teams actually use 3 goalies in a year typically). The 3rd I suppose could become a 2nd if X is met but goalies just aren't worth much. They have to retain salary because no one is paying 6mil for Markstrom. Idk, that feels like a good deal to me. 

You don't pay a lot for goalies outside of the elite tier because goalies are like RB. Their play is very dependent on the defense in front of them and you never know which systems work best for which goalies in which years. If you think it would cost more, UPL, 2nd, 2mil retained is about all you are getting. There is no market for goalies which is why so few have been traded this offseason.

[bob_sauve28]

I just saw this, didn't read it so don't start throwing bricks at me if it is no good. 

 

 

[Randall Flagg]

I'd keep UPL over adding Vladar

[DarthEbriate]

19 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

@DarthEbriate would have kittens if we got Vlader.

He was a pupil of mine Tuuka and Essensa before he turned to evil (and Calgary).

[Thorner]

16 hours ago, dudacek said:

I’ll say it again. In this millennium, no goalie has ever been traded for more than the 9th overall pick.

That goalie had a reasonable contract, was coming off back-to-back outstanding years as a backup and was entering his prime.

If there has been a veteran goalie traded for more value than Darcy Kuemper or Ryan Miller’s (roughly) late 1st and a B prospect, I don’t remember it.

But think of all the goalies who COULD have moved, had the price indeed been paid, instead 

[Thorner]

4 hours ago, bob_sauve28 said:

I just saw this, didn't read it so don't start throwing bricks at me if it is no good. 

 

 

I appreciate Chad pushing this wagon so hard

It’s not that some combination of what we have won’t or can’t work, it’s just a significant gamble, and the lack of action would therefore weigh very heavily on analysis of the GM’s performance should we fail to make the playoffs. And if we DO make the playoffs and it’s not in spite of GT, Adams gets the proportional/corresponding credit.

At the very least it’s fascinating 

[That Aud Smell]

30 minutes ago, Thorny said:

it’s just a significant gamble, and the lack of action would therefore weigh very heavily on analysis of the GM’s performance should we fail to make the playoffs.

man, he better be right.

[Thorner]

1 minute ago, That Aud Smell said:

man, he better be right.

At this point in time, I’d guess the most likely result is that he’s somewhat wrong..and that we make the playoffs anyways

Edited July 14, 2023 by Thorny

[Marvin]

57 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I appreciate Chad pushing this wagon so hard

It’s not that some combination of what we have won’t or can’t work, it’s just a significant gamble, and the lack of action would therefore weigh very heavily on analysis of the GM’s performance should we fail to make the playoffs. And if we DO make the playoffs and it’s not in spite of GT, Adams gets the proportional/corresponding credit.

At the very least it’s fascinating 

Fascinating is one word for it.  Frightening is mine.

[thewookie1]

In the end the likely result of no moves will be due to a lack of availability of solid goalies and/or the price of acquisition being  over what any sane GM would give. 
 

Its also likely stopped up at this time league wide due to all the RFA goalies outstanding and a lack of cap space to go around. 
 

Teams that need to acquire goalies and have cap either aren’t competing or already have guys. We are arguably the closest team to one that can handle a larger cap hit while having need of a goalie. 
 

Boston is screwed if Swayman reaches arbitration. He’ll like get 4-5mil due to his team and personal success. 

[Thorner]

1 hour ago, thewookie1 said:

In the end the likely result of no moves will be due to a lack of availability of solid goalies and/or the price of acquisition being  over what any sane GM would give. 
 

Its also likely stopped up at this time league wide due to all the RFA goalies outstanding and a lack of cap space to go around. 
 

Teams that need to acquire goalies and have cap either aren’t competing or already have guys. We are arguably the closest team to one that can handle a larger cap hit while having need of a goalie. 
 

Boston is screwed if Swayman reaches arbitration. He’ll like get 4-5mil due to his team and personal success. 

No, it’s the result of how Adams has managed the position for going into his now 4th season as GM. It’s the result of his choices. 

Right, wrong, win, lose. What you wrote is just advanced apologist behaviour. 

By your statement his strategy either works, or fails but only in a situation where taking any other course of action would have been “insane”, so he’s in effect blameless. It literally alleviates him of any requirement to have the position fixed, where the results themselves aren’t necessarily the definitive factor, which they absolutely need to be 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Thorny

[JohnC]

27 minutes ago, Thorny said:

No, it’s the result of how Adams has managed the position for going into his now 4th season as GM. It’s the result of his choices. 

Right, wrong, win, lose. What you wrote is just advanced apologist behaviour. 

By your statement his strategy either works, or fails but only in a situation where taking any other course of action would have been “insane”, so he’s in effect blameless. It literally alleviates him of any requirement to have the position fixed, where the results themselves aren’t necessarily the definitive factor, which they absolutely need to be 

The GM is responsible for assembling the roster. Ultimately, he will be held accountable for the success of the team. Success is not predicated on one position, but the goalie position is a factor in success or failure more than any other position. Most people would agree on that. And so would he. 

Is the GM taking a risk by maintaining the status quo in the staffing of the position? Of course he is. At least for now, he has made a judgment that he prefers the status quo over giving up assets to bring in another goalie. If the stance he has taken doesn't work out and is a main factor in the failure of the team, he would be held accountable. It doesn't matter if there are apologists for him or not. That's the reality he works in. And he knows that. 

[Taro T]

44 minutes ago, Thorny said:

No, it’s the result of how Adams has managed the position for going into his now 4th season as GM. It’s the result of his choices. 

Right, wrong, win, lose. What you wrote is just advanced apologist behaviour. 

By your statement his strategy either works, or fails but only in a situation where taking any other course of action would have been “insane”, so he’s in effect blameless. It literally alleviates him of any requirement to have the position fixed, where the results themselves aren’t necessarily the definitive factor, which they absolutely need to be 

It really IS ok to say that Adams has done a very good job at F, appears to be putting D on a similar footing (helps having 50 minutes/game of #1 OA picks still on an upward trajectory), and needs to have had a rookie hit big to say that he hasn't yutzed up the G for a 4th year (barring additional moves that might happen later this summer) out of 4.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Taro T
G not D

[PerreaultForever]

20 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

VO isn’t garbage,

Then why doesn't a single person here want him in the starting line up? 

[JohnC]

46 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Then why doesn't a single person here want him in the starting line up? 

I have no problem with him in the starting lineup. When training camp starts (assuming he isn't dealt), he will be competing for a position on one of the lines. He'll either earn a position or will not. That's how it works. Because of Quinn's injury his chances of being on the roster and playing has increased. 

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

It really IS ok to say that Adams has done a very good job at F, appears to be putting D on a similar footing (helps having 50 minutes/game of #1 OA picks still on an upward trajectory), and needs to have had a rookie hit big to say that he hasn't yutzed up the G for a 4th year (barring additional moves that might happen later this summer) out of 4.

Overall, I'm more than pleased with how KA has managed the operation. Of all the personnel decisions he has made there is one decision that I strenuously disagreed with: That is how he handled the Ullmark issue. I felt at the time, and still do, that he should have gone outside the contract parameters he set for this goalie to get a deal done. I thought he should have exhibited more flexibility in his effort to sign him. In my opinion, if Ullmark were on the roster last ylear, the Sabres would have been a playoff team. And this year, if Ullmark and Levi were the tandem goalies, the Sabres would be a formidable team. The past is the past, and you move on. 

 

Edited July 15, 2023 by JohnC

[thewookie1]

3 hours ago, Thorny said:

No, it’s the result of how Adams has managed the position for going into his now 4th season as GM. It’s the result of his choices. 

Right, wrong, win, lose. What you wrote is just advanced apologist behaviour. 

By your statement his strategy either works, or fails but only in a situation where taking any other course of action would have been “insane”, so he’s in effect blameless. It literally alleviates him of any requirement to have the position fixed, where the results themselves aren’t necessarily the definitive factor, which they absolutely need to be 

I'd like him to get a goalie but I still personally agree that trading premier pieces for a rental in Hellebuyck would be idiotic and/or paying him 8x9mil would be idiotic.

Could we get Markstrom cheap and to bounce back, that would be worth a look but Vladar doesn't move the needle. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

25 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

I'd like him to get a goalie but I still personally agree that trading premier pieces for a rental in Hellebuyck would be idiotic and/or paying him 8x9mil would be idiotic.

Could we get Markstrom cheap and to bounce back, that would be worth a look but Vladar doesn't move the needle. 

What kind of wookie are you if you don't think Vladar moves the needle?

 

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

I have no problem with him in the starting lineup. When training camp starts (assuming he isn't dealt), he will be competing for a position on one of the lines. He'll either earn a position or will not. That's how it works. Because of Quinn's injury his chances of being on the roster and playing has increased. 

Okay, so change my comment from "not a single person" to "almost no one"

[GASabresIUFAN]

14 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Okay, so change my comment from "not a single person" to "almost no one"

VO is just this month's forward scapegoat.  Mitts was the scapegoat last year and VO is his replacement.  Some of the criticism leveled at Mitts was warranted, but the majority was off the deep end.  This time it's VO.  Again some of the criticism is warranted and he has acknowledged that himself and said he is going to work on it.  in the second half of the season before last, VO was probably our best forward.  I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.  How many 28-goal scorers are lying around anyway? (He was tied for 56th in goals last year and his 21 Even goals were tied for 48th.)  That production is top-line goal-scoring and he is likely on the Sabres 3rd line.  

[thewookie1]

54 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

What kind of wookie are you if you don't think Vladar moves the needle?

 

 

Love the name, but he doesn't seem any different than UPL with good AHL stats in Providence