Is Kevyn Adams doing anything?

[grinreaper]

6 minutes ago, Eleven said:

 

 

Ok, but how do we magically know that Max didn't want to be here and Drury did?  It seems more likely to be the opposite, to me.

Reread my post. You are using two of my different and separate points as if they are one argument. 

[Thorny]

33 minutes ago, grinreaper said:

Something to keep in mind: Adam's first job was to jettison players that weren't part of the Sabre's future. He didn't complete the Eichel trade until somewhere around the middle of last season and didn't get the benefit of Tuch until after that. He had to clear the decks before making progress in building the team on ice. Placing a timeline based on the calendar doesn't make a lot of sense other than in general terms. Rebuilding a team or a business or even a golf course may use a timeframe as a guide but the smart operators are results driven. 

FIFY.

Ya, no.

It’s the plan’s 3rd year next year. It’s time to win. If they aren’t actually winning games by the third year, said plan is lacking. 

You cannot tell me with the forwards we have the expectation for next year shouldn’t be playoffs. Half the teams make it. It’s time for that to be the goal. 

You are absolutely correct it should be results driven. This year, our result is pacing to be the same as last. Improvement is required

- - - 

Im not saying they HAVE to make it, there’s a distinction there. I can live with not making it if that’s the goal and they fall short. But they need to internally be preaching playoffs not outwardly preaching development year, like they’ve been reasonably honest in communicating this year. We might not make it, if it’s the goal, but if it’s not the goal we DEFINITELY won’t. All I said is that if they enter into the year again with oodles of cap space and again preaching development as the priority focus, it won’t fly for this fan. 

Regardless, from all outside reports, Adams has realized it’s time to supplement now

Edited December 14, 2022 by Thorny

[Eleven]

16 minutes ago, grinreaper said:

Reread my post. You are using two of my different and separate points as if they are one argument. 

Ugh my apologies!  

[Taro T]

One thing that doesn't seem to get brought up in these discussions is that this team ISN'T going to be "broken" by a losing streak.  (Not a judgment, merely an observation.  There's good & bad in that fact.)  This team really IS a team in that they all like each other (there aren't cliques within the team) & when something good happens to one they are genuinely happy for him.

So while watching this team slide down the standings is crazy frustrating, it isn't something that will carry over into next season should it continue.  (Personally, don't expect it will carry on all year, speaking there on a worst case.)   It isn't going to splinter these guys.  They've demonstrated that coming out of last year's mid-season slump and with coming out of the 8 game streak this year.

Building that camaraderie is something Adams wanted for this team.  He's accomplished that goal along w/ having the top 6 F spots filled & the top 3 D spots filled and 1 of the goalie spots (though likely the 2nd slot rather than the 1st, would be sweet if Comrie can be the 1, we still haven't seen enough to know).  He also has already identifiable candidates to fill 4-5 of the remaining F slots and 1-2 of the D slots.  The pieces that remain outstanding are (except the 1G) the ones that SHOULD be easy to find.

Not happy that this is another "development" year.  Not convinced the 3rd teardown was absolutely necessary.  But both were advertised well in advance and they are what they are.  Also, hate that Ullmark walked and that every legit candidate to replace him (both before & after he walked) that was pursued except for Comrie fell through.  But it is what it is.

Personally, am very excited at what next year might/should be.  And am enjoying watching the kid line, the big minute D, & Thompson is getting to be worth the price of admission all by himself.  They ARE fun to watch.  Doubt they get to the playoffs, but do expect they'll put on a good show trying. 

And the resilience of being able to keep coming back w/ a smile on their faces when they come out for the next game as they do see what they're improving on isn't a bad thing.  Were they a bunch of 28 year olds, yep, it would absolutely be a damning indictment; but as a bunch of 22 year olds, it's an asset.  MHO, YMMV. (And yes, realize almost none of them are actually 22; but take away 4 or 5 of them & it has to be close to the average age.)

[Thorny]

8 minutes ago, Taro T said:

One thing that doesn't seem to get brought up in these discussions is that this team ISN'T going to be "broken" by a losing streak.  (Not a judgment, merely an observation.  There's good & bad in that fact.)  This team really IS a team in that they all like each other (there aren't cliques within the team) & when something good happens to one they are genuinely happy for him.

So while watching this team slide down the standings is crazy frustrating, it isn't something that will carry over into next season should it continue.  (Personally, don't expect it will carry on all year, speaking there on a worst case.)   It isn't going to splinter these guys.  They've demonstrated that coming out of last year's mid-season slump and with coming out of the 8 game streak this year.

Building that camaraderie is something Adams wanted for this team.  He's accomplished that goal along w/ having the top 6 F spots filled & the top 3 D spots filled and 1 of the goalie spots (though likely the 2nd slot rather than the 1st, would be sweet if Comrie can be the 1, we still haven't seen enough to know).  He also has already identifiable candidates to fill 4-5 of the remaining F slots and 1-2 of the D slots.  The pieces that remain outstanding are (except the 1G) the ones that SHOULD be easy to find.

Not happy that this is another "development" year.  Not convinced the 3rd teardown was absolutely necessary.  But both were advertised well in advance and they are what they are.  Also, hate that Ullmark walked and that every legit candidate to replace him (both before & after he walked) that was pursued except for Comrie fell through.  But it is what it is.

Personally, am very excited at what next year might/should be.  And am enjoying watching the kid line, the big minute D, & Thompson is getting to be worth the price of admission all by himself.  They ARE fun to watch.  Doubt they get to the playoffs, but do expect they'll put on a good show trying. 

And the resilience of being able to keep coming back w/ a smile on their faces when they come out for the next game as they do see what they're improving on isn't a bad thing.  Were they a bunch of 28 year olds, yep, it would absolutely be a damning indictment; but as a bunch of 22 year olds, it's an asset.  MHO, YMMV. (And yes, realize almost none of them are actually 22; but take away 4 or 5 of them & it has to be close to the average age.)

So what’s your expectation for next season? 

Or, more to the point, what do you feel their expectation should be? 

[Taro T]

Just now, Thorny said:

So what’s your expectation for next season? 

With legit GTing - PLAYOFFS.  

Without - ???  Would need to see the other pieces.

[Weave]

At Taro,

I 100% disagree.  Continued losing will break them.  It will break any team.  The plan, any plan, is on borrowed time.  Players are competitive.  Players are driven.  They won’t be content to see their peers win while this team evaluates and struggles.  There needs to be an end point.

[Thorny]

1 minute ago, Taro T said:

With legit GTing - PLAYOFFS.  

Without - ???  Would need to see the other pieces.

Please see edit 

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, Weave said:

At Taro,

I 100% disagree.  Continued losing will break them.  It will break any team.  The plan, any plan, is on borrowed time.  Players are competitive.  Players are driven.  They won’t be content to see their peers win while this team evaluates and struggles.  There needs to be an end point.

Fair enough.  Like said above, MHO, YMMV.  And absolutely expect that winning becomes the goal next season.

Would agree though that continued losing will break the fans.  GD threads can be darn near unbearable.

[Brawndo]

21 hours ago, dudacek said:

I can’t get behind the idea that Kevyn Adams is blithely sitting on his hands when he clearly spelled out his plan then spent the past 18 months doing exactly what he said he would.

And I can’t get behind the idea that Adams needs to deviate from his plan when he has made so much clear and demonstrable progress over such a relatively short period of time.

Adams told you he was going to strip the roster of players who didn’t want to be here, and invest his time and effort in developing and rewarding the players who did. And that he would assemble a team that would respect the fans, the city and each other, and grow together into something that would endure.

He broke up a 31st-place, .330 team that sported the league’s 29th best offence and 29th best defence with terrible analytics, a league-worst goal differential and, by all accounts a miserable dressing room.

His bag of assets included:

• An intriguing collection of unproven NHL talent (Dahlin, Jokiharju, Bryson, Cozens, Olofsson, Thompson, Mittelstadt, Asplund)
• Perhaps the worst contract in the league, along with another generally considered bottom-10 (Skinner, Okposo)
• A bucket of prospects and picks (Quinn, Peterka, Johnson, Portillo, Levi, Samuelsson, 6 1sts and 6 2nds over the next 3 drafts)
• Not a single proven top-six forward, top pairing defenceman or starting goalie
• A whack of cap space

109 games later he has progressed to a 24th-place, .464 team that sports the league’s best offence and 24th best defence, with middle of the pack analytics and goal differential, and, by all accounts, a tight, happy room.

His bag of assets now includes:

• An intriguing collection of unproven NHL talent (Power, Quinn, Peterka, Krebs, Luukkonen)
• No anchor contracts
• A bucket of prospects and picks (Johnson, Portillo, Levi, Rosen, Poltapov, Kisakov, Savoie, Östlund, Kulich, Leinonen, Neuchev and more, 3 1sts and 5 2nds over the next 3 drafts)
• An emerging legitimate #1 NHL centre (Thompson) signed long-term on a 2C contract
• An emerging legitimate #2 NHL centre (Cozens)
• An emerging legitimate shutdown defenceman (Samuelsson) on a long-term contract
• A legitimate Norris Trophy contender (Dahlin)
• A legitimate 1st-line NHL scoring winger (Skinner, 5th in scoring among NHL LWs)
• A legitimate 1st-line NHL power forward (Tuch, 6th in scoring among NHL RWs) on a bargain long-term contract.
• No starting goalie
• A whack of cap space

In short, in less than a season and a half, Adams’ plan has produced 6 core pieces where none existed before. And he’s done that without cutting into our cap space, or sacrificing our treasure chest of futures, just trying to maximize what each player has to give.

All this and we’re upset that he didn’t put in a waiver claim for a 29-year-old depth blueliner who has been an NHL regular exactly one season in his entire career? Or paid Jack Eichel trade prices for a Doug Bodger-level defenceman?

Does the above mean Adams is beyond reproach? Of course not.

But it does mean that he is capable and consistent: two qualities this organization’s leadership has been bereft of for far too long. We are making progress - significant, measurable progress. I suspect he will have no hesitation to make moves to fill in the holes when the right moves come available at the right time. I’m confident the groundwork is being laid and re-laid on a daily basis.

We’ve been at the bottom of a deep, dark pit for far too long for quick fixes.

From my vantage point, he’s doing what needs to be done.

Excellent post.

With Adams mentioning The Team would like to reward Cozens, Dahlin and Power with long term deals this offseason, that would leave Quinn and Peterka for the Summer of 24, that would provide maximum flexibility moving forward. 

19 hours ago, SwampD said:

Great read. You are pretty spot on with everything.

Am I out of line for thinking that it’s gotta happen next year, though? I mean, I don’t expect a SCF appearance, but they have to be a lock for the playoffs next year, right? Maybe with even a shot at a second round series? I don’t think that’s unreasonable.

I am one of the biggest Adams Supporters on here. That being said Next year the goal has to be playoffs, no questions about it

 

21 hours ago, Pimlach said:

So, another guy who really didn't want to be here.  (See ROR, Reinhart, Eichel, )

I can’t say I blame him with everyone else leaving.

 

8 hours ago, nfreeman said:

I think the bolded is true regarding this season, but for his 1st 2 seasons, the sins were of omission IMHO.  In 2020-21, he didn't upgrade in net and went into the season with Ullmark and Hutton -- even though Hutton was clearly not an NHL goalie at that point and Ullmark was very much unproven. 

It was even worse in 2021-22 -- despite finishing 2nd-last in goals against the previous year, and losing Ullmark, all KA did was add the elderly Craig Anderson and a bunch of Tokarski-type AHL journeymen.

I could be wrong, but I don't remember the Sabres being in on any Matt Murray-type deals in those 2 offseasons where KA was clearly trying to bring in legit goaltending but the deals were vetoed by a goalie with a NTC.

 

 

Great post, as always, and I largely agree, but with one quibble:  KA has been the GM for 166 games now -- 56 in 2020-21, 82 last year and 28 this year.  So 3 offseasons and 2+ regular seasons worth of games.

 

 

 

I guess I just think at this point, there are very few guys on D or in net that would represent a difference-making upgrade and are available, and, of those, most or all wouldn't be interested in coming here.  That may change by the deadline or next offseason, but in the meantime, I'm not interested in committing term to a guy who isn't a real difference-maker.

Yes Adams has been GM for three off seasons, but the First One was  to attempt to make Jack Happy by signing Hall and trading for Staal. Remember the owner did say that Hall makes them a Stanley Cup Contender. Fortunately He also drafted Quinn and Peterka that offseason. 
 

The second one was the start of the tear down and rebuild, not everyone will agree, but to me that’s year one to me 

 

 

[Thorny]

17 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

Excellent post.

With Adams mentioning The Team would like to reward Cozens, Dahlin and Power with long term deals this offseason, that would leave Quinn and Peterka for the Summer of 24, that would provide maximum flexibility moving forward. 

I am one of the biggest Adams Supporters on here. That being said Next year the goal has to be playoffs, no questions about it

 

I can’t say I blame him with everyone else leaving.

 

Yes Adams has been GM for three off seasons, but the First One was  to attempt to make Jack Happy by signing Hall and trading for Staal. Remember the owner did say that Hall makes them a Stanley Cup Contender. Fortunately He also drafted Quinn and Peterka that offseason. 
 

The second one was the start of the tear down and rebuild, not everyone will agree, but to me that’s year one to me 

 

 

I like all this and especially the bold. Maybe it was rocky for a bit but after these last two, trying years, our viewpoints are aligning right up now for next season, and going forward it seems 

[nfreeman]

2 hours ago, Eleven said:

Ok, but how do we magically know that Max didn't want to be here and Drury did?  It seems more likely to be the opposite, to me.

Oh, I agree that Drury didn't want to be here.  He made that clear in his interviews when he was first traded here and by his action in leaving when OSP jerked him around.  Nevertheless, he was a great player.

 

2 hours ago, grinreaper said:

I agree with much of this, and Drury was better than Max, but Max was about a million times better than Hall was when playing for the Sabres. 

FIFY.

I'm not sure I would definitively state that Hall was better than Max, full stop. 

(I realize that Hall was the MVP once, so my stance on this is probably ridiculous, but still.  Max never dogged it anywhere the way Hall did here.  And Max was electrifying.  He could score it, he could pass it, and he was the fastest guy on the ice at all times.  Hall, even at his best, is a strong skater and a decent playmaker but not elite at anything.)

[grinreaper]

1 minute ago, nfreeman said:

Oh, I agree that Drury didn't want to be here.  He made that clear in his interviews when he was first traded here and by his action in leaving when OSP jerked him around.  Nevertheless, he was a great player.

 

I'm not sure I would definitively state that Hall was better than Max, full stop. 

(I realize that Hall was the MVP once, so my stance on this is probably ridiculous, but still.  Max never dogged it anywhere the way Hall did here.  And Max was electrifying.  He could score it, he could pass it, and he was the fastest guy on the ice at all times.  Hall, even at his best, is a strong skater and a decent playmaker but not elite at anything.)

Max was one hell of a skilled player who seemed to always try to win the game all on his own and not include his teammates. 

[SwampD]

26 minutes ago, grinreaper said:

Max was one hell of a skilled player who seemed to always try to win the game all on his own and not include his teammates. 

His hands were also faster than his brains.

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, grinreaper said:

Oh goody, a new subject to discuss. 

The team's plan is not a specific blueprint that demands following it to the letter and not providing any room for flexibility.

Simply put, GMKA first set out to get rid of people who didn't want to be here or didn't have a fit for the kind of club he (and I presume the owners) wanted to ice. Recognizing that he had an abundance of potentially really good but unproven players plus an unusual amount of high draft choices he knew that he might end up with more top NHL players than what he could afford or utilize. The Sabres are presently in the stage in which these players are being evaluated regarding their value. Some have shown enough to earn long term, team friendly contracts, some might be close while the value of others has not yet been determined. The whole idea right now is for them to find out what they have and to lock up those that are deserving while avoiding picking up anyone that makes it difficult for them to stick to their plan. The Sabres, either by astute drafts & trades or dumb luck have their skill players under control and prime for reasonable contracts. What they need now and most likely for a few years are players like stay at home defensemen and a high caliber goalie. Those kind of D-men can be had at reasonable prices but not until the trading deadline or in the Summer. The goalie, who knows? To me, solving the goaltending issue is and will be Adam's biggest single challenge.

Demanding that the Sabre's rebuild timeline is determined by the calendar rather than progress is wishing for feel good headlines rather than results. 

 

There's nothing new here, we already know this, but at some point you have to be able to evaluate the plan to see if it's working or not. At what point is making the playoffs the actual goal and failing to do so is in fact failure? 

It's been 11 years. I do not want to hear any more next year  talk. 

[Porous Five Hole]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

Oh, I agree that Drury didn't want to be here.  He made that clear in his interviews when he was first traded here and by his action in leaving when OSP jerked him around.  Nevertheless, he was a great player.

To the bolded, this is not at all how I remember it. During Drury’s introductory press conference, I actually remember Chris saying, “it’s nice to be wanted” when he got here because he had already been traded twice in his young career. 

He then signed a four year deal shortly after he arrived. 
 

How it ended is another story, as you said. 

[Marvin]

Just now, Porous Five Hole said:

To the bolded, this is not at all how I remember it. During Drury’s introductory press conference, I actually remember Chris saying, “it’s nice to be wanted” when he got here because he had already been traded twice in his young career. 

He then signed a four year deal shortly after he arrived. 
 

How it ended is another story, as you said. 

I remember the hockey community deriding that contract as overpayment and wishful thinking. Wow, were they wrong.

[grinreaper]

23 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

There's nothing new here, we already know this, but at some point you have to be able to evaluate the plan to see if it's working or not. At what point is making the playoffs the actual goal and failing to do so is in fact failure? 

It's been 11 years. I do not want to hear any more next year  talk. 

If there's nothing new here then I for one haven't changed the opinions that I have previously posted. Did you expect me to? The team is on a journey to become a legitimate Cup contender. Making the playoffs of course is only a part of that journey. Using the fact that the Sabres haven't made the playoffs in 11 years is not really germane to this subject. We have a new GM that had nothing to do with nearly all of those years. He has his own plan that appears to be on schedule. 

[Porous Five Hole]

5 minutes ago, Eleven said:

??

Drury was an RFA when acquired by Buffalo. He inked a four year deal shortly after the trade. 
 

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.380709

[grinreaper]

11 minutes ago, Eleven said:

Drury's initial contract in Buffalo? That came from Calgary, no?   Can you explain?

Drury came from Colorado.

[Eleven]

5 minutes ago, Porous Five Hole said:

Drury was an RFA when acquired by Buffalo. He inked a four year deal shortly after the trade. 
 

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.380709

OK I have stuff to delete now...

3 minutes ago, grinreaper said:

Drury came from Colorado.

No.  Calgary.   You have stuff to delete now, too.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Eleven

[grinreaper]

35 minutes ago, Eleven said:

OK I have stuff to delete now...

No.  Calgary.   You have stuff to delete now, too.

He started out in Colorado. I won't do any deleting though. I'm not afraid to show that I can be wrong. (rarely)😀

[Brawndo]

3 hours ago, Thorny said:

I like all this and especially the bold. Maybe it was rocky for a bit but after these last two, trying years, our viewpoints are aligning right up now for next season, and going forward it seems 

This upcoming offseason is lining up perfect for Adams, He will have zero excuses not to make moves. 
 

It’s appears the salary cap is only going up by a Million next season unless the NHL and NHLPA come to an agreement. This means there will be some teams remaining in cap trouble.

Adams said on Sabres Live they are open to doing long term deals with Cozens, Dahlin and Power as soon as they can, meaning only Peterka and Quinn will be the only two core players not locked in long term, although they should have a good projection on how much they will cost in the  Summer of 2024. 
 

With this cost certainty they can be bigger players in UFA and comfortably pay a little more for players they need. (They could have done this at anytime the past two seasons, but they wanted to know what they have in house first). The potential available defenseman look better than last Summer and the one that interests Me the most is Damon Severson from NJ. The Devils have plenty of cap space, but with Nemec, Hughes and Casey ready to make the jump in the near future, the number of roster spots for Defenseman gets interesting. Severson is 28, plays RHD, could be a Power Partner for a few seasons. 
 

At this point I would rather they use the assets in a potential Chychrun Trade for a goalie. looking at You Demko. They will know the true value of their 2023 1st as it will be locked in next May. They will know which of their Young Forwards to keep and being able to retain 50% of either Mitts or Olofsson, should make them more attractive in a trade. Especially if their point totals continue to increase. 

Hopefully once Lybushkin and Comrie are back and the latter is playing behind a more consistent defense, there will be improvement.

If the Sabres are going to commit major assets in a deal, especially in season, the player has to have at least 2-3 seasons of control and it makes more sense to have a trade like this during the offseason, when rosters are most flexible and are 31 other teams to negotiate with. 

All this makes it easier  for Adams to make moves this summer, as the 2023-24 Season Goal has to be playoffs or bust. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

23 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

This upcoming offseason is lining up perfect for Adams, He will have zero excuses not to make moves. 

Everything you asked for above was available last summer and was just as set up for Adams as next off-season.  The team turned the corner last year and had he done what you suggest for next off-season last off-season we wouldn’t still be in the bottom 1/3 of the NHL.  We knew last off-season we needed at least two capable NHL D for the top 6, we knew we needed a legit starter in goal, we knew we needed a 4th line center and he had and has $20 mill in cap to do it.  The needs remain the same.  The only real difference is that the franchise has wasted another season.

How different would we look if we just did what NJ did, in addition to signing Bush.  They acquired Vanacek and the 46th pick for picks 37 & 70.  They also acquired John Marino for Ty Smith (who is in the AHL) and a 3rd after this season.  

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, grinreaper said:

If there's nothing new here then I for one haven't changed the opinions that I have previously posted. Did you expect me to? The team is on a journey to become a legitimate Cup contender. Making the playoffs of course is only a part of that journey. Using the fact that the Sabres haven't made the playoffs in 11 years is not really germane to this subject. We have a new GM that had nothing to do with nearly all of those years. He has his own plan that appears to be on schedule. 

You see it's this last sentence that I question. Last year we were 9th from the bottom. Right now we are 11th from the bottom. So was that the schedule - move up 2 places? 

How can you say it's "on schedule" when we don't know what the schedule is?