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The 2003 and 2018 Canadian Junior Team Thread


LGR4GM
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Because apparently the boomers on the board need a split out thread but can't do that themselves. 😝

In 2003 allegedly 6 wjc players on Canada's team had relations with an unconscious woman and there's video. Due to the 2018 wjc allegations, this video has apparently come to light. If you would like to discuss this, you may in this thread. If you want to discuss the 2018 allegations, here you go as well. 

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10 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Because apparently the boomers on the board need a split out thread but can't do that themselves. 😝

Waaahhhhh.  Go see if mommy will give you a sucker and a hug. 😂😂😂

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6 hours ago, aristocrat said:

How could having sex with a passed out girl be enjoyable at all? Is there statute of limitations in Canada?

Technically no, there isn't. Generally sexual abuse cases are not tried after 5 years and they are almost impossible to prove after lengthy amounts of time BUT there is no statute of limitations and since this is high profile and in the media spotlight charges are possible. I suspect that that would hinge on the videotape and if they have it though. 

 

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6 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Technically no, there isn't. Generally sexual abuse cases are not tried after 5 years and they are almost impossible to prove after lengthy amounts of time BUT there is no statute of limitations and since this is high profile and in the media spotlight charges are possible. I suspect that that would hinge on the videotape and if they have it though. 

 

This is certainly an unusual case in that 20 years later it’s not a he said she said but an actual video tape. That’s just crazy to me. I just did a quick google and it seems Canada does not have a statute of limitations so there are few guys lawyered up and looking at some prison time in this I’d imagine. 

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The thing that doesn't make sense, and is what Hockey Canada should be held accountable for in these situations is, how is there no adult supervision / chaperones at these things?

You allegedly have 6 players involved in the 1 incident during a 2 week long tournament and allegedly 8 players involved following a gala dinner in the other.  Understand that these are very YOUNG adults, so technically they can go on their own and allegedly do something this stupid, but these are short showcase events where the majority of players are far from their homes and in a party/ charged environment.  How does nobody that gets paid to put these events on stop & ask the question "well, what could possibly go wrong" letting a bunch of high school/ underclassmen aged "men" go off on their own.  Don't they have curfews?  Curfews aren't placed only to make sure the players are ready to do their job in the morning, they're also there to keep them from doing something really ####ing stupid they probably wouldn't do on their way to lunch in the light of day.  And professional sports teams have curfews for players when they're on the road, this isn't an outlandish thought.

This isn't a frat or a bunch of buddies deciding to take a trip to Ottawa or Montreal for a weekend only to have a party get out of hand (which would be bad enough), these are Hockey Canada / IIHF main events w/ all of Canada & parts of the world watching.  These players are going to these on Hockey Canada's dime & are in a role to be ambassadors of sorts for their country & their sport.  How the #### does somebody who wasn't literally a kid less than 2 years earlier pay attention?  How do the organizers just let a herd of players go off on their own at night?  (Presuming that's the case, if these incidents occurred right in the hotel rooms they raise other questions.)

And before the Liger or others accuse yours truly of excusing the players, am not doing that.  Don't know the details of the allegations so have no comment on the acts other than if they did something illegal (and in at least 1 of the situations it seems that if they did what's alleged they did commit a crime) & the statute of limitations hasn't expired expecting they'll be punished.

Edited by Taro T
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8 hours ago, Taro T said:

The thing that doesn't make sense, and is what Hockey Canada should be held accountable for in these situations is, how is there no adult supervision / chaperones at these things?

You allegedly have 6 players involved in the 1 incident during a 2 week long tournament and allegedly 8 players involved following a gala dinner in the other.  Understand that these are very YOUNG adults, so technically they can go on their own and allegedly do something this stupid, but these are short showcase events where the majority of players are far from their homes and in a party/ charged environment.  How does nobody that gets paid to put these events on stop & ask the question "well, what could possibly go wrong" letting a bunch of high school/ underclassmen aged "men" go off on their own.  Don't they have curfews?  Curfews aren't placed only to make sure the players are ready to do their job in the morning, they're also there to keep them from doing something really ####ing stupid they probably wouldn't do on their way to lunch in the light of day.  And professional sports teams have curfews for players when they're on the road, this isn't an outlandish thought.

This isn't a frat or a bunch of buddies deciding to take a trip to Ottawa or Montreal for a weekend only to have a party get out of hand (which would be bad enough), these are Hockey Canada / IIHF main events w/ all of Canada & parts of the world watching.  These players are going to these on Hockey Canada's dime & are in a role to be ambassadors of sorts for their country & their sport.  How the #### does somebody who wasn't literally a kid less than 2 years earlier pay attention?  How do the organizers just let a herd of players go off on their own at night?  (Presuming that's the case, if these incidents occurred right in the hotel rooms they raise other questions.)

And before the Liger or others accuse yours truly of excusing the players, am not doing that.  Don't know the details of the allegations so have no comment on the acts other than if they did something illegal (and in at least 1 of the situations it seems that if they did what's alleged they did commit a crime) & the statute of limitations hasn't expired expecting they'll be punished.

Great post.  I started writing some of these points last night and erased it as I didn't feel I could get my points across. 

In my opinion we can't really comment much more on the past events unless more facts come out.  But the WJC (postponed from Dec / Jan 22) is scheduled for August.  What can the IIHF and Hockey Canada do to help prevent this from happening again?  They don't need to have all of the answers but it would seem wise to start with something like curfews, code of ethics, consequences, etc.  I know it's not that simple, but start to make positive changes.

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15 hours ago, Taro T said:

The thing that doesn't make sense, and is what Hockey Canada should be held accountable for in these situations is, how is there no adult supervision / chaperones at these things?

You allegedly have 6 players involved in the 1 incident during a 2 week long tournament and allegedly 8 players involved following a gala dinner in the other.  Understand that these are very YOUNG adults, so technically they can go on their own and allegedly do something this stupid, but these are short showcase events where the majority of players are far from their homes and in a party/ charged environment.  How does nobody that gets paid to put these events on stop & ask the question "well, what could possibly go wrong" letting a bunch of high school/ underclassmen aged "men" go off on their own.  Don't they have curfews?  Curfews aren't placed only to make sure the players are ready to do their job in the morning, they're also there to keep them from doing something really ####ing stupid they probably wouldn't do on their way to lunch in the light of day.  And professional sports teams have curfews for players when they're on the road, this isn't an outlandish thought.

This isn't a frat or a bunch of buddies deciding to take a trip to Ottawa or Montreal for a weekend only to have a party get out of hand (which would be bad enough), these are Hockey Canada / IIHF main events w/ all of Canada & parts of the world watching.  These players are going to these on Hockey Canada's dime & are in a role to be ambassadors of sorts for their country & their sport.  How the #### does somebody who wasn't literally a kid less than 2 years earlier pay attention?  How do the organizers just let a herd of players go off on their own at night?  (Presuming that's the case, if these incidents occurred right in the hotel rooms they raise other questions.)

And before the Liger or others accuse yours truly of excusing the players, am not doing that.  Don't know the details of the allegations so have no comment on the acts other than if they did something illegal (and in at least 1 of the situations it seems that if they did what's alleged they did commit a crime) & the statute of limitations hasn't expired expecting they'll be punished.

The problem is at what age do you no longer need constant supervision and does that ever stop? I remember back when the Ben Rothlisberger rape thing came out there were a lot of Steelers fans asking why don't these guys have chaperones/drivers/whatever you want to call them keeping an eye on them and their "parties". Those were grown ass men. 

So I guess what I'm saying is their age is not an excuse. Calling them "YOUNG" just doesn't cut it. Rape is rape at any age and there's no excuse, none. Period. Full stop. That stuff just has to end. We all know there's been tons of it in the past and all kinds of disgusting hazing and other rituals and there is no excuse for any of it any more. It's 2022, and it's time for a reckoning. 

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18 hours ago, Taro T said:

Understand that these are very YOUNG adults, so technically they can go on their own and allegedly do something this stupid, but these are short showcase events where the majority of players are far from their homes and in a party/ charged environment.  How does nobody that gets paid to put these events on stop & ask the question "well, what could possibly go wrong" letting a bunch of high school/ underclassmen aged "men" go off on their own.

You're talking about my, and lots of other people's, freshman year of college.

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18 hours ago, Taro T said:

How the #### does somebody who wasn't literally a kid less than 2 years earlier pay attention? 

They probably partied just as hard when they went through it and saw no harm in it, maybe even viewed it as a rite of passage. 

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5 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

The problem is at what age do you no longer need constant supervision and does that ever stop? I remember back when the Ben Rothlisberger rape thing came out there were a lot of Steelers fans asking why don't these guys have chaperones/drivers/whatever you want to call them keeping an eye on them and their "parties". Those were grown ass men. 

So I guess what I'm saying is their age is not an excuse. Calling them "YOUNG" just doesn't cut it. Rape is rape at any age and there's no excuse, none. Period. Full stop. That stuff just has to end. We all know there's been tons of it in the past and all kinds of disgusting hazing and other rituals and there is no excuse for any of it any more. It's 2022, and it's time for a reckoning. 

Made what seemed to be a clear distinction between everyday activities of these players and being flown out to a special event for the benefit of the organization (Hockey Canada) sponsoring the event & reaping the profits from the event. So, the Rapelisberger nightclub incident really isn't apples to apples.  

Also, specifically said the comments about providing some supervision were completely separate from the actions alleged.  There was specifically no excusing of the players' alleged behaviors; if they did commit a crime, expect there will be consequences.  (But knew somebody would claim the post was excusing the behavior; surprised it was you.)   

Had the people at Hockey Canada running these events provided supervision then these young men that literally millions of Canadians look up to wouldn't have had the opportunity to do these things that they are alleged to have done.  When does the need for a degree of supervision when you've arranged to send these teenaged men out of hometowns/ homebases end?  Would expect that's something that would be determined on a case by case basis, (though as pointed out, professional sports teams see a need for an enforced curfew for their players when they travel out of town; if players in their mid-20's - early 30's need supervision, perhaps assuming teens & 20 year olds need it too would be a good thing) but sending a bunch of teenagers (& 20 year olds) out of town to celebrate them & tell them they're all that would seem to still fall under the umbrella of "yes we need to provide supervision."  And again, that Hockey Canada didn't provide nearly enough supervision nor apparently a strong enough framework to deter these activities seems clear in hindsight.

2 hours ago, Doohickie said:

You're talking about my, and lots of other people's, freshman year of college.

Yes, & last time we checked freshmen in college are underclassmen.  And the 18 year olds on the team were high school aged.  What is your point?

Would you expect RPI to have some sort of supervision / curfews for the players should they fly out to LA for the Great Western Shootout?  If the answer to that is yes, why shouldn't Hockey Canada provide some form of supervision in extremely analogous situations?

2 hours ago, Doohickie said:

They probably partied just as hard when they went through it and saw no harm in it, maybe even viewed it as a rite of passage. 

These men who were barely beyond being kids at the time these events were alleged to have occurred are being accused of gang raping women.  You still going to stick with the response that the people running Hockey Canada and the events these players were at "partied just as hard ... and saw no harm from it, maybe even viewed it as a rite of passage."  Gang rape a "rite of passage?"  

(And PS, the line you quoted should've had the word "not" before "pay attention."  Fortunately people seem to have understood the meaning even with the grammatical error.  Thank you.)

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2 hours ago, Doohickie said:

They probably partied just as hard when they went through it and saw no harm in it, maybe even viewed it as a rite of passage. 

If you have a daughter im pretty sure you wouldn't think this way.

And if it was your son you wouldn't think this way .

I know my son wouldn't be part of the family anymore 

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3 hours ago, Taro T said:

What is your point?

My point is that I, as a young adult, went a whole school year "unsupervised" and somehow I managed to avoid gang-raping an unconscious woman.  My point is that I don't see the lack of supervision as the cause of the incident.

3 hours ago, Taro T said:

"partied just as hard ... and saw no harm from it, maybe even viewed it as a rite of passage."  Gang rape a "rite of passage?"

No.  The rite of passage is being unsupervised, tying on a few, bonding with the other players on the team.  I suspect that the coaches didn't know it went that far.

3 hours ago, Buffalonill said:

If you have a daughter im pretty sure you wouldn't think this way.

And if it was your son you wouldn't think this way .

I know my son wouldn't be part of the family anymore 

See my reply to @Taro T.  That's not what I meant by rite of passage.

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32 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

My point is that I, as a young adult, went a whole school year "unsupervised" and somehow I managed to avoid gang-raping an unconscious woman.  My point is that I don't see the lack of supervision as the cause of the incident.

No.  The rite of passage is being unsupervised, tying on a few, bonding with the other players on the team.  I suspect that the coaches didn't know it went that far.

See my reply to @Taro T.  That's not what I meant by rite of passage.

How often as a freshman did you get flown across the country to be the guest of honor at a gala dinner with 20 or so of your peers and then get turned loose on the night?  The moment for a "rite of passage" ISN'T at a gala dinner where your tournament team was reassembled for the night.

These guys on that evening were getting told how great they are and how they can do no wrong on a national stage.  With the egos & libidos people can have at that age, why would you NOT provide some form of supervision in that environment if it was your event?  EVERYBODY (literally, everybody) involved directly & indirectly in the incident would've been better off for it. 

Again, pro teams & college teams have curfews & other forms of supervision.  Why didn't Hockey Canada have them in place as well?  And if they did, wtf didn't they actually enforce them?

You seem to be equating this to the team being out on a normal Tuesday night in their normal settings.  Neither alleged incident happened in that sort of a setting.  They both were at major events on a national stage.  You never did anything dumb on a trip with your buddies that you wouldn't have done back at home?  Honestly?  Had there been somebody there paying attention to what you were doing, might you not have done that?  Well, somebody paying attention could've kept both of these alleged incidents from happening.

 

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On a semi related note, Virtanen just got off in his trial. Jury found him not guilty. As the story went the woman in question had a few memory lapses on events so Jake's lawyer stressed the "inconsistencies" and she hadn't fought back enough to convince the jury she wasn't a willing participant. 

In these cases, I suspect they will be even harder to "prove" with the time that's gone by, but that videotape is still the main piece of evidence. 

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12 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

The problem is at what age do you no longer need constant supervision and does that ever stop? I remember back when the Ben Rothlisberger rape thing came out there were a lot of Steelers fans asking why don't these guys have chaperones/drivers/whatever you want to call them keeping an eye on them and their "parties". Those were grown ass men.

The NFL more so, but hockey canada also has a significant investment in these players.  So while someone may not need supervision, it does provide insurance against both the players' actions themselves and from false accusations.  So yeah, it may not be necessary, but is it really all that bad of an idea?

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4 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

On a semi related note, Virtanen just got off in his trial. Jury found him not guilty. As the story went the woman in question had a few memory lapses on events so Jake's lawyer stressed the "inconsistencies" and she hadn't fought back enough to convince the jury she wasn't a willing participant. 

In these cases, I suspect they will be even harder to "prove" with the time that's gone by, but that videotape is still the main piece of evidence. 

 Canucks world class 

 

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10 hours ago, shrader said:

The NFL more so, but hockey canada also has a significant investment in these players.  So while someone may not need supervision, it does provide insurance against both the players' actions themselves and from false accusations.  So yeah, it may not be necessary, but is it really all that bad of an idea?

Oh I'm not saying it wouldn't be a good idea, it's just something that hasn't been done, they've been treated as free adults, like me and you, and I think there'd be push back from the players if they were not given freedom. 

 

7 hours ago, Buffalonill said:

 Canucks world class 

 

The team or the members of the jury? Not sure what this means. 

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