About that trade…

[Taro T]

2 minutes ago, Curt said:

It goes like this:

32 - Cup winner 

31 - Cup finals loser

30 - Losing conference finalist w/better record

29 - Losing conference finalist w/worse record

17-28 - arranged by regular season standings

Only the conference finals and cup finals impact draft order.  The rest of the playoff results don’t factor into it.

Correct.  & division winners that don't get to the semis are seeded at the back of the 17-28 grouping.

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I’m going to play Jack apologist for a second.  Jack is coming back from a career threatening injury and a difficult surgery.  He had no camp, had to play his way back into shape and play with guys he was unfamiliar with.  The fact he has done as well as he has is pretty amazing.  LV won’t get what they paid for until next season.  

That said there are reasons for LV to be worried about acquiring Jack, but his play this season isn’t the cause of their hopefully missing the playoffs. Injuries (they still have 7 players out with injuries) and mediocre goaltending are responsible.

 

When ROR was traded most of us felt that we didn't get an adequate return. Now that a few years have gone by that deal looks much better with the current play of Tage. And, if Johnson, the draft pick from that trade, ends up playing for us that deal will look even more favorable. The point is that your first assessment of a transaction might dramatically change as time passes. 

As I have said before the trade of Jack was the right thing for him; and the trade and return for Jack was the right thing for this franchise. 

[Doohickie]

5 hours ago, Buffalonill said:

I think the excessive joy over the Eichel trade is magnified by the abject horror most felt after the O'Reilly trade.

The two really are seminal points in the story of the Sabres.  One trade was just horrible, not only for the team but for its reputation.  The other is the polar opposite:  The team disposed of what was increasingly a liability, and in exchange got assets both for right now and in the future.

Add that to the improvement of the Sabres' fortunes of late, but not so good to make the playoffs (the hole was too deep)... well, just let us enjoy this for a change.

[PerreaultForever]

Well that was a fun read, and I can't disagree with any of it. 

Regarding ROR, I still think it broke down when they made Jack captain. If they'd given the C to ROR maybe things would have gone differently. or in hindsight, maybe the one who should have been traded then was Jack. 

In any event, cleaning house was the right move and I'm glad KA did it. Now maybe we get to stop talking about draft position in December and focus on playoff possibilities. Jack can just be forgotten about, wallowing out west until he leaves Vegas and becomes a Bruin which I still think will happen one day. Then we can really relish a downfall and reversal. 

[matter2003]

That article is fantastic!

 

And even the O'Reily trade is looking pretty good with how Thompson has developed.

[mjd1001]

We have gotten to the point where, as others have said, the discussion has gone circular.  Same points are getting repeated....and not many people are moving off of their point of view. That is fine though, that is what discussion boards are for.

I'm still of the Opinion that Eichel isn't close to the generational player we wanted him to be when he was in Buffalo...and he is not as good as Vegas thought he would be when they traded Tuch, Krebs, and a first for him.  It seems like many Sabres fans (when he was here) and Vegas fans now wanted/expected him to be a top 5 NHL scorer, a potential 40-50+ goal, 100+ point guy, who can carry a team on his back. 

What he appears to be now is a guy who is 20th or so best in terms of scoring (his best year, his CAREER year got him to #10 in the league), a guy who will get you 30-35 goals and 90 points, and doesn't have the mentality to carry a team on his back. He might crack 40 goals and 90 points in the next year or two, but that would become his 'career' year, not the norm.  Oh, and that is IF he is fully healthy for an entire season, something that with him seems less likely than with most other players.

If he comes back strong next year and proves me wrong...breaks the top 10 in scoring and is the primary reason Vegas makes the playoffs, then he will prove me and a lot of other people wrong.  But by this point, he no longer gets the benefit of the doubt that a season like that will LIKELY happen...to me it is likely NOT to happen until he proves it.

 

Here is the what I would really like to know:

How many people here (what percentage) would like to undo the Eichel trade if he was willing to stay here for the rest of his contract?

How many people here (what percentage) at this point would undo the ROR trade?

Edited April 26, 2022 by mjd1001

[PerreaultForever]

17 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

Here is the what I would really like to know:

How many people here (what percentage) would like to undo the Eichel trade if he was willing to stay here for the rest of his contract?

How many people here (what percentage) at this point would undo the ROR trade?

I would not have undone the Eichel trade. At the time I felt it should have been Tuch Krebs and 2 firsts but now the way things have gone I'm happy with just Tuch and Krebs and the picks are just free dessert. If either is a decent player we win the trade big time. 

ROR for me is harder to answer. Tage is younger, and it looks like he is pretty good now, but imo ROR is still the better player and more valuable to a team. Having said that, the trade had to be made so it's fine in the long run. If we could go back in time and undo the situation and never make the trade however, that might have been ideal. 

[triumph_communes]

5 hours ago, Doohickie said:

I think the excessive joy over the Eichel trade is magnified by the abject horror most felt after the O'Reilly trade.

The two really are seminal points in the story of the Sabres.  One trade was just horrible, not only for the team but for its reputation.  The other is the polar opposite:  The team disposed of what was increasingly a liability, and in exchange got assets both for right now and in the future.

Add that to the improvement of the Sabres' fortunes of late, but not so good to make the playoffs (the hole was too deep)... well, just let us enjoy this for a change.

Both trades were the same. Remove locker room cancers and bring in kids with skill and culture. People are just impatient. 

Edited April 26, 2022 by triumph_communes

[PerreaultForever]

18 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

Both trades were the same. Remove locker room cancers and bring in kids with skill and culture. People are just impatient. 

Ya, but I'd argue ROR was not a cancer. He wanted to get away from the cancer. That's certainly the way it seems in hindsight. He definitely didn't ruin St. Louis. 

[PromoTheRobot]

14 hours ago, North Buffalo said:

While I hate websites with way too many ads... I like that the author craps on Lehner first than goes apoplectic on John... Of course he is not wrong... saw it way too much when jack was needed it.... only issue and maybe it takes more than a year to realize but he does not acknowledge the curse of Jack... though his timeline illustrates it continues straight from wence Jack came... nearby Salem, the town of witches? 🤔 

Chelmsford---> Salem not that close. Over an hour away. 

[Doohickie]

55 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

Both trades were the same. Remove locker room cancers and bring in kids with skill and culture. People are just impatient. 

[triumph_communes]

47 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Ya, but I'd argue ROR was not a cancer. He wanted to get away from the cancer. That's certainly the way it seems in hindsight. He definitely didn't ruin St. Louis. 

StLouis was literally last place until they changed coaches that season and radically changed some big mistakes and rode that high through the cup. Been downhill ever since then and ROR brings no leadership. StLouis just wasn’t a tire fire for him to set off 

Edited April 27, 2022 by triumph_communes

[nfreeman]

28 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

StLouis was literally last place until they changed coaches that season and radically changed some big mistakes and rode that high through the cup. Been downhill ever since then and ROR brings no leadership. StLouis just wasn’t a tire fire for him to set off 

I don't think this is a fair description of events.  STL missed the playoffs the year before the ROR trade, then won the cup with him, then made the playoffs and lost in the 1st round in the 2 covid-affected seasons, and are having a great season this year, with 109 pts in 80 games so far.  That's not a team that had 1 good run with ROR and then fell apart. 

ROR is the captain of a very good team that he's led to the playoffs 4 times in 4 years, including 1 cup.  That's pretty good leadership.

And you can be sure that the Blues are very glad they made the trade.

 

 

[North Buffalo]

3 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Chelmsford---> Salem not that close. Over an hour away. 

Lol... I still call upper Westchester part of NYC... its close enough... lol

PS Vegas lost again to Dallas in a SO

Not sure how Dallas hasnt clinched... are wins not first tie breaker? Dallas has 3 more than Vegas with 2 to go.

Edited April 27, 2022 by North Buffalo

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, triumph_communes said:

StLouis was literally last place until they changed coaches that season and radically changed some big mistakes and rode that high through the cup. Been downhill ever since then and ROR brings no leadership. StLouis just wasn’t a tire fire for him to set off 

Except they won the Stanley Cup and ROR was the Conn Smyth winner but whatever. 

[TheAud]

14 minutes ago, North Buffalo said:

Lol... I still call upper Westchester part of NYC... its close enough... lol

PS Vegas lost again to Dallas in a SO

Not sure how Dallas hasnt clinched... are wins not first tie breaker? Dallas has 3 more than Vegas with 2 to go.

Tie breaker is wins in regulation. Vegas actually has more than Dallas.

[RochesterExpat]

5 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Except they won the Stanley Cup and ROR was the Conn Smyth winner but whatever. 

He wasn't brought in for leadership either.

Either way, there's no scenario in which Buffalo 'wins' or even 'breaks even' on this trade until Thomspon/Johnson lift the cup.

[GoPuckYourself]

15 hours ago, inkman said:

The curmudgeon in me has a hard time getting past the writing style.  
 

 

Hell hath no fury like a Buffalo fan scorned. Enjoy the schadenfreude.  

Yeah it’s off putting 

I agree, I bet he wrote that in crayon first.

[nucci]

10 hours ago, triumph_communes said:

StLouis was literally last place until they changed coaches that season and radically changed some big mistakes and rode that high through the cup. Been downhill ever since then and ROR brings no leadership. StLouis just wasn’t a tire fire for him to set off 

He arrived there and won MVPs and a Cup. We still haven't made the playoffs

[Pimlach]

15 hours ago, triumph_communes said:

Both trades were the same. Remove locker room cancers and bring in kids with skill and culture. People are just impatient. 

ROR is not a cancer in St Louis.   He is the opposite.  I argue that he needed to grow up a bit, and he needed a coach like Berube, and he needed other vets on the team that care about the team and their performance.  All of which he got in in St Louis.  

The Sabres did not bring in kids with skill AND culture.  They brought in kids with skill, that are willing to work on their game, and that  buy into the culture that the team wants to achieve.  

I  don't think you can call the fans impatient  - this playoff drought is the biggest in NHL history.  The past Sabre's management was definitely  impatient - they played Thompson and Mitts before either were ready, they asked Mitts to be a 2C because they got fleeced on Berglund and Sobotka.   Both Murray and Botts did not know how to find the right veteran help.  Thankfully Adams is different, even the JAGs he brought in would at least work hard and buy in and listen to Granato.  Meanwhile, KA very patiently let Quinn and Perterka develop in the AHL.  

[Pimlach]

14 hours ago, triumph_communes said:

StLouis was literally last place until they changed coaches that season and radically changed some big mistakes and rode that high through the cup. Been downhill ever since then and ROR brings no leadership. StLouis just wasn’t a tire fire for him to set off 

Just plain wrong.  St Louis benefited from the coaching change, the goaltending change, and ROR's all around excellent play added to the solid mix of vets and youth. 

The Covid year was tough on all teams and it is a season with an asterisk.  Right now St Louis is a top contender in the West, so how is that downhill?   They have added more youth and more skill that was developed in their system. They run four lines that all contribute with a mix of size and skill - they look built for playoffs.  If their goalie gets hot again they will make noise.  

[Doohickie]

30 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I  don't think you can call the fans impatient

He's referring to how long it took Tage to provide a return to Buffalo on the trade I believe.

[Pimlach]

17 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

Here is the what I would really like to know:

How many people here (what percentage) would like to undo the Eichel trade if he was willing to stay here for the rest of his contract?

How many people here (what percentage) at this point would undo the ROR trade?

1.  I would not undo the Eichel trade.   He wanted out before the injury.  He really failed to see the team improve under DG.  In his end of year  presser he showed who he is - he talked about a disconnect, he talked about himself, he said nothing about the team and the teams  future.  He wanted out.  You should never keep players that don't want to be there.   I think getting Tuch and Krebs and a #1 is a good return given the circumstances.  Eichel can go on to be a star in the future and I will still say the trade needed to happen and the return looked good given the situation.  

2.  I think Bots and Pegula really blew the ROR situation and the trade.  Berglund was known as a guy who took shifts off and never played to his potential.   Lots of personal issues with Berglund that Botts was not astute enough to know (lack of league wide connections?).   Sobotka was finished, he was a 4th liner on a bad team at best.   Thompson was a prospect that still needed time in the AHL, instead we tried to rush him into the NHL.  Rather then hastily trade ROR, why not bring him and other vets in and listen to what is going on with the team and try to fix it?   Why trade a guy that hates losing?   You cannot undue the trade but I think we all know that ROR should have had the C to begin with, not Jack.   I think we all know that the trade was rushed to avoid payment of the bonus.  I think we all know a veteran GM took advantage of a rookie GM.   The Sabres organization took huge hits around the league for this trade.  

You cannot undo the trade - I think we are fortunate that Tage is a hard worker and that his effort is paying off.  Thankfully, DG knows what he is doing with these kids.  The move to center came out of necessity but it was executed brilliantly by DG.   To take the sting out of this trade maybe Tage helps bring us a cup and becomes a great Sabre someday?   

Someday the Eichel-ROR dynamic may come to light.  

 

[triumph_communes]

Does anyone truly believe there was a place in Buffalo for the guy who introduced himself to the town by drunk drive crashing into a restaurant named after a guy in our rafters who died drunk driving?

 

They closed the last Timmy’s in St Louis before he moved

[Doohickie]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

19 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

Here is the what I would really like to know:

How many people here (what percentage) would like to undo the Eichel trade if he was willing to stay here for the rest of his contract?

1.  I would not undo the Eichel trade.   He wanted out before the injury. 

Right, but the question said what if he didn't want out?

I can't really do the mental gymnastics about undoing either trade, but I can say that I like the direction the team is going now.

I would also say that this last decade was at least as much about coaching as it was about those two players and who they were traded for.  A Granato-type, culture-building coach who could institute a decent system of Xs and Os who get players to buy in might have been able to keep the dressing from from descending into the hell it became and salvaged the Sabres for both ROR and Jack.

ROR and Jack failed because of management:  GM and coaching.  ROR got out in time but at this point I think Jack is damaged goods.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Doohickie