Friedman:Sabres are looking for Goaltending Help

[thewookie1]

 

8 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

Everybody needs to be patient.   

This team is in a jam because they tried the quick fix route, trading valuable futures for underachieving roster players hoping for a quick turnaround.  

KA's plan (to build from within) is on schedule, the team is actually playing better than expected (goals for) and the prospects are thriving on their respective clubs, so yeah it's frustrating that goaltending remains an issue after all these years.   

They have some goalies in the pipeline that should bear some fruit at some point.. but there's no immediate help on the way.   

This isn't the 90's or early 00's when it was much easier to acquire an NHL level starter.    Expansion has severely thinned out the goalie position so it's now more important than ever to draft and develop your own netminders.      

I just want to add that goalies not only have the longest incubation period but also are wildly difficult to get a read on; even when they play in the NHL. Every year, without exception at least 2 or 3 goalies play way above their career average and a few others tank for little to no reason at all. Some goalies are incredibly streaky (Bryzgolov), some are pretty much one hit wonders (Tim Thomas), some take the league by storm and then pitter out (Murray) Binnington was a mediocre at best AHL goalie forced into the NHL due to injuries and suddenly took the Blues to the Cup and has retained a bit better than Murray.

[GASabresIUFAN]

48 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

What exactly do you want him to do? Getting a solid goalie is far easier said than done. Should we trade our 1st for Gibson? Railing on something only can be tolerated for so long unless you have a strategy that doesn't mortgage the future. None of us are happy with the results; but no GM, even the greatest GMs, can make players appear out of thin air.

 

 

No I don’t want him to trade a 1st for a goalie.  However, there are other options.  We have 3 2nds next year and one available this season.  We also have some extra D prospects.  Vanacek was available for a 2nd this year.  Everyone assumes we need to sign someone.  We don’t.  There is a trade market for more then future considerations.  Dallas has 4 goalies for example.  It’s at least 2 years until one of our prospects maybe ready to take the net.  Is KA going to wait another 2 seasons until one proves ready to fix the problem he has known about for 2 years? What will he do if none of the prospects prove ready for another 3 years or ever?

 I’m sorry you can’t tell me over the last two off-seasons that there were no upgrades over Anderson, Dell, Tokarski, Hutton and Subban.  Maybe had he signed Ullmark to an extension when he got here, Ullmark would still be in net here.  Maybe had he replaced Hutton, we’d have had someone ready to go when Ullmark bolted.  Yzerman found a goalie for Detroit for a 3rd last season.  Arizona found decent goaltending in Europe and grabbed Scott Wedgewood offer of waivers a month ago.  

Other clubs, even bottom dwellers like us, have found goaltending solutions over the last 2 off-seasons, why not us?  Simple, KA doesn’t know what he is doing.  

So what do I want him to do?  Get creative and find a solution.  Others have without trading away 1st rd picks or key prospects. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[Indabuff]

On 12/4/2021 at 9:27 PM, Gatorman0519 said:

We need someone to hold the fort for 2-3 years 

Dude, when the hell did you change to this profile pic?!  It's friggin hilarious.

[PromoTheRobot]

9 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

How long is this alleged crucible going to last?  

 

My guess is this season and next.

[GASabresIUFAN]

6 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

My guess is this season and next.

Then we are wasting two seasons.  How are they going to get the fans back if this is the level of hockey we are going to see for the remainder of this season and all of next year because KA can't find goaltending.

[PromoTheRobot]

Just now, GASabresIUFAN said:

Then we are wasting two seasons.  How are they going to get the fans back if this is the level of hockey we are going to see for the remainder of this season and all of next year because KA can't find goaltending.

By firing Adams and clearing house again?

[LabattBlue]

I hope the Sabres org realizes fans are taking a “show me first” approach. No one is buying season tix based on a bunch of prospect hype.  The STH numbers aren’t going back up until the Sabres have a respectable season, and show that they are trending upwards. 
 

Until proven otherwise, the Pegula’s are terrible NHL owners. 

[Brawndo]

 

1 minute ago, LabattBlue said:

I hope the Sabres org realizes fans are taking a “show me first” approach. No one is buying season tix based on a bunch of prospect hype.  The STH numbers aren’t going back up until the Sabres have a respectable season, and show that they are trending upwards. 
 

Until proven otherwise, the Pegula’s are terrible NHL owners. 

Not too many would argue against the last point 

[GASabresIUFAN]

22 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

By firing Adams and clearing house again?

I have repeated said since Karmanos was hired and we should kick KA upstairs and let Karmanos run the show

[Doohickie]

15 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

Still don’t believe Adams refused to offer Ullmark a fair contract.

I contend that Ullmark was gone to another team at the first reasonable offer.  His agent used his Sabres offer as leverage for other teams.  The only way the leverage was effective is if Ullmark gave every indication he was happy to stay with the Sabres.   And if no decent offer was forthcoming, he would have stayed.  But the Sabres were his 32nd choice.

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Then we are wasting two seasons.  How are they going to get the fans back if this is the level of hockey we are going to see for the remainder of this season and all of next year because KA can't find goaltending.

Let’s not talk past each other here.

I don’t think the plan is to have the type of goaltending we got in November right through until the end of next season.

I think the plan was to not invest significant assets or long-term cap space in net because they expected UPL to emerge fairly soon as their long-term starter and that we’d get the type of adequate goaltending we got in October from the bargain bin.

Subban is proof they hope to stick with that plan at least a while longer, but he is also proof that they aren’t content to hand the reins to Aaron Dell regardless of how poorly Dell plays.

Other options will be tried if the beatings continue.

Edited December 6, 2021 by dudacek

[PromoTheRobot]

56 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I have repeated said since Karmanos was hired and we should kick KA upstairs and let Karmanos run the show

And what basis are you assuming Karmanos would immediately fix the goaltending issue?

[GASabresIUFAN]

3 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Let’s not talk past each other here.

I don’t think the plan is to have the type of goaltending we got in November right through until the end of next season.

I think the plan was to not invest significant assets or long-term cap space in net because they expected UPL to emerge fairly soon as their long-term starter. 

Subban is proof they hope to stick with that plan at least a while longer, but he is also proof that they aren’t content to hand the reins to Aaron Dell regardless of how poorly Dell plays.

Other options will be tried if the beatings continue.

What has UPL done to make the above stated plan a reasonable one?  Nothing. UPL was 36th in save % last season in the AHL and he's 40th this season.  

You say that plan was not to invest significantly in the position on the faint hope UPL proves ready sooner then later.  The funny thing is that they are wasting decent money already on the position with nearly zero return.  Subban, Anderson and Dell alone are costing 2.35 million.  Add the foolish contract to Butcher (2.8) and we could have invested $5 mill in real goaltending and not spent a single $ more then we are currently spending with likely better results in goal and on defense.   

So you say now that the plan is to keep putting band-aids on the problem until UPL finally proves ready.  In essence continue to waste more money on bad goaltending.  How does this make any sense?  So what do they do when UPL gets shelled again in his next callup?

 

[nfreeman]

16 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Let’s not talk past each other here.

I don’t think the plan is to have the type of goaltending we got in November right through until the end of next season.

I think the plan was to not invest significant assets or long-term cap space in net because they expected UPL to emerge fairly soon as their long-term starter and that we’d get the type of adequate goaltending we got in October from the bargain bin.

Subban is proof they hope to stick with that plan at least a while longer, but he is also proof that they aren’t content to hand the reins to Aaron Dell regardless of how poorly Dell plays.

Other options will be tried if the beatings continue.

"The beatings will continue until morale improves."

[GASabresIUFAN]

Just now, PromoTheRobot said:

And what basis are you assuming Karmanos would immediately fix the goaltending issue?

Honestly, it's based on what happened in Carolina while trying to rebuild without adequate goaltending.  He has seen that problem first hand and I hope wouldn't make the same mistake twice.

[dudacek]

1 minute ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

What has UPL done to make the above stated plan a reasonable one?  Nothing. UPL was 36th in save % last season in the AHL and he's 40th this season.  

You say that plan was not to invest significantly in the position on the faint hope UPL proves ready sooner then later.  The funny thing is that they are wasting decent money already on the position with nearly zero return.  Subban, Anderson and Dell alone are costing 2.35 million.  Add the foolish contract to Butcher (2.8) and we could have invested $5 mill in real goaltending and not spent a single $ more then we are currently spending with likely better results in goal and on defense.   

So you say now that the plan is to keep putting band-aids on the problem until UPL finally proves ready.  In essence continue to waste more money on bad goaltending.  How does this make any sense?  So what do they do when UPL gets shelled again in his next callup?

 

Never said I approved of the plan.

Pretty sure I predicted it would lead to what we’ve seen the past month.

 

[GASabresIUFAN]

Just now, dudacek said:

Never said I approved of the plan.

Pretty sure I predicted it would lead to what we’ve seen the past month.

 

That's the problem.  All this was foreseeable.  I wrote about it in the off-season as did so many others.  If we could see it as fans on a message board, then why couldn't Sabres management?  If they did see it, why did they do it anyway unless it was to tank the franchise again.  If the plan was to tank, then their stated goal to build a new culture was BS.

[PromoTheRobot]

9 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Honestly, it's based on what happened in Carolina while trying to rebuild without adequate goaltending.  He has seen that problem first hand and I hope wouldn't make the same mistake twice.

So it's your opinion that Adams doesn't see goaltending as a problem.

[GASabresIUFAN]

9 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

So it's your opinion that Adams doesn't see goaltending as a problem.

Yes.  He said as much when he discussed the signings of Anderson and Dell.  If he truly believed it is a problem he’d have found better solutions then keeping Hutton, signing Dell and Anderson and acquiring Subban.  Subban was only acquired to replace injured or ill players, not to upgrade the position.

Edited December 6, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[K-9]

2 hours ago, LabattBlue said:

I hope the Sabres org realizes fans are taking a “show me first” approach. No one is buying season tix based on a bunch of prospect hype.  The STH numbers aren’t going back up until the Sabres have a respectable season, and show that they are trending upwards. 

Per the bold, everything KA has said about the need to “earn” the return of the fans indicates the organization knows full well the fans won’t be back until they turn things around. 

Many fans simply won’t return. Ever. But there will be new fans to sit in those seats. 

[Thorny]

22 hours ago, K-9 said:

Being demoralized is a choice. If our young players are so delicate and fragile that they choose to be demoralized rather than determined to keep their noses to the grindstone and keep working to turn it around, then perhaps we don’t have the right type of players. Success starts with overcoming adversity and growing from it. 

Considering that Adams has stated several times his aim is to bring in/keep the players who want to be HERE, he'd be as much on the hook for bringing in and keeping guys that "wilted", then, as a different GM would be for bringing in and keeping players who didn't have enough talent, if talent was THAT GM's goal. 

He's made it a point that that type of character is what he's trying to identify. 

It's on him to identify the guys that fit what he is trying to do. We can only ask the GM to be successful at accomplishing what they are actually trying to accomplish - he's made it very clear that "character" guys are a target, and therefore his ability to identify those players is one of the things he must be evaluated on. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Thorny

[Thorny]

21 hours ago, JohnC said:

The young players such as Dahlin, Mitts, Tage etc have been exposed to losing for their whole careers. This isn't a one year hurdle that they need to work through. Success certainly entails working through adversity. No question about that. But having the right support system also is a factor in the development of players. In the workplace or even in a school setting the more positive environment there is the greater chance there will be for growth. 

And this. A good point. 

[Thorny]

14 hours ago, dudacek said:

 

 

This is an outstanding series of posts.

I will take it a step further and suggest that this season is intentionally a crucible designed to forge and test the type of character you speak about. I believe the coaching staff has made sure from day one the players are fully aware of this and watching to see who cracks and who perseveres.

I agree with those who say Adams is walking a dangerous road, but it’s a road that his chosen role models (Z and KO) have passed through and continue to walk. And I believe that if and when reinforcements arrive it is one that will serve the survivors well.

Not to the extent we are seeing. 

Adams tried to sign Ullmark. People keep ignoring this because it's convenient.

Adams didn't want the goaltending to be this bad. 

He didn't want the adversity to be this extreme. 

[Thorny]

13 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

What exactly do you want him to do? Getting a solid goalie is far easier said than done. Should we trade our 1st for Gibson? Railing on something only can be tolerated for so long unless you have a strategy that doesn't mortgage the future. None of us are happy with the results; but no GM, even the greatest GMs, can make players appear out of thin air.

 

 

So why did we lambast Botterill for not getting a 2C? Is that any easier than finding a COMPETANT goaltender?

The "what could he have even done?!" posts miss the mark by the greatest amount. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Thorny

[Norcal]

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