Friedman:Sabres are looking for Goaltending Help

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, Norcal said:

They've been looking

 

….. For love in all the wrong places.

[Thorny]

Also @PromoTheRobotis right that it's not just the goalies. The D has been bad. Yes, the goaltending being so bad plays into the overall defensive performance structure of the team, but the team D is also bad because of the system Granato is playing that is benefiting our ability to generate offence. It's a trade off - the offense isn't "fixed", either, if we committed to a better team D, the goals would go down. 

Everything flows into each other in a fluid game like hockey. What's the net output? That's what we should look at. It's bad. We are a severe net negative in goal differential. The goalies have been bad - has anyone peeked what kind of WAR results goalies generally achieve? It's some of the problem, not all. Team D is bad. That's on the skaters, too, the D and the forwards. 

[dudacek]

53 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Per the bold, everything KA has said about the need to “earn” the return of the fans indicates the organization knows full well the fans won’t be back until they turn things around. 

Many fans simply won’t return. Ever. But there will be new fans to sit in those seats. 

I don’t think we can ignore the business element to the Sabres strategy here either. The crowds were going to be tiny, win-or-lose. I think there’s definitely a “why spend an extra $20 million to be a 78-point team and pick 8th?” return on investment mindset playing out this season.

23 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Not to the extent we are seeing. 

Adams tried to sign Ullmark. People keep ignoring this because it's convenient.

Adams didn't want the goaltending to be this bad. 

He didn't want the adversity to be this extreme. 

Absolutely.

I need to re-iterate here that certainly I, and I believe @K-9 as well, are in no way absolving Adams of anything. We are simply stating that there is no guarantee that this season is causing irreparable damage to the young Sabres.

[Thorny]

2 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I don’t think we can ignore the business element to the Sabres strategy here either. The crowds were going to be tiny, win-or-lose. I think there’s definitely a “why spend an extra $20 million to be a 78-point team and pick 8th?” return on investment mindset playing out this season.

Absolutely.

I need to re-iterate here that certainly I, and I believe @K-9 as well, are in no way absolving Adams of anything. We are simply stating that there is no guarantee that this season is causing irreparable damage to the young Sabres.

You are correct, we can't know if it will cause psychological damage to the younger players.

On the same note, we can't know the fans wouldn't be back right now, win-or-lose, just for the record. Because they've never had a chance to witness the "win" you are alluding to. 

A 5-1-1 start following a 14 losses in 17 stretch is not even CLOSE to the required sample size to know they wouldn't be here if we were winning more sustainably, beyond a mere 7 game stretch to start the season. 

[PromoTheRobot]

27 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Also @PromoTheRobotis right that it's not just the goalies. The D has been bad. Yes, the goaltending being so bad plays into the overall defensive performance structure of the team, but the team D is also bad because of the system Granato is playing that is benefiting our ability to generate offence. It's a trade off - the offense isn't "fixed", either, if we committed to a better team D, the goals would go down. 

Everything flows into each other in a fluid game like hockey. What's the net output? That's what we should look at. It's bad. We are a severe net negative in goal differential. The goalies have been bad - has anyone peeked what kind of WAR results goalies generally achieve? It's some of the problem, not all. Team D is bad. That's on the skaters, too, the D and the forwards. 

How many goals are the result of one certain player who can't stop coughing the puck up, especially on powerplays?

[Thorny]

6 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

How many goals are the result of one certain player who can't stop coughing the puck up, especially on powerplays?

He giveth, and he taketh. 

Right now he's probably a net-taketh.

I'd wager he's not a net-taketh relative to the rest of the team, though. And that's the key point.

This is why he plays. 

[K-9]

25 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I don’t think we can ignore the business element to the Sabres strategy here either. The crowds were going to be tiny, win-or-lose. I think there’s definitely a “why spend an extra $20 million to be a 78-point team and pick 8th?” return on investment mindset playing out this season.

The business element plays a huge part this season and rightfully so, imo. There’s a time to spend and a time not to and currently we don’t sit in a position where it makes sense to spend after years of throwing good money after bad only to see last place finishes. It may not sit well with fans, but KA is a realist about the situation and I can respect that. Rebuilds are not pretty, especially after purging the team of players who didn’t get it done after purposely tanking to acquire them. A bitter pill for fans indeed. But a pill that was absolutely necessary to swallow, imo.

It’s funny to see so much teeth gnashing by people who predicted the very on ice results we are seeing. Never have so many been so upset by their own accurate predictions. And I think that mentality ties in to the idea that the “kids” will become demoralized and lose their “love of hockey” because it’s the fans who are demoralized and insist on projecting their scarred psyches onto the players. 

All that said and as others have said as well, there are still things worth watching this season. So I’ll keep watching and attending games whenever I can. 

[thewookie1]

Go get Bishop Adams, take Khudobin too If that’s the price. Between all of these old injuries we should be able to cobble up 82 games worth of starts 

[Taro T]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

I don’t think we can ignore the business element to the Sabres strategy here either. The crowds were going to be tiny, win-or-lose. I think there’s definitely a “why spend an extra $20 million to be a 78-point team and pick 8th?” return on investment mindset playing out this season.

Absolutely.

I need to re-iterate here that certainly I, and I believe @K-9 as well, are in no way absolving Adams of anything. We are simply stating that there is no guarantee that this season is causing irreparable damage to the young Sabres.

And nobody on the gnashing of teeth side of this is saying the players are guaranteed irreparable harm.  But, when there was even reasonable goaltending, several of these kids were showing that they were taking strides.  The development goal WAS getting met.  So, though from a standings perspective, this season is a waste like the dozen that came before it, at least there was something worth watching and that the fans could cling to.

Now, that is gone (at least for now) & there doesn't seem to be all that much separating pick 3 OA from pick 8 OA and it takes luck to be higher than that I any case.  So, we're back to just having another wasted year.  It's frustrating & people are venting.

But if the goal is development, it's shaping up that one won't be met as well as it should given legit backstoppers.

[Marvin]

30 minutes ago, Taro T said:

And nobody on the gnashing of teeth side of this is saying the players are guaranteed irreparable harm.  But, when there was even reasonable goaltending, several of these kids were showing that they were taking strides.  The development goal WAS getting met.  So, though from a standings perspective, this season is a waste like the dozen that came before it, at least there was something worth watching and that the fans could cling to.

Now, that is gone (at least for now) & there doesn't seem to be all that much separating pick 3 OA from pick 8 OA and it takes luck to be higher than that I any case.  So, we're back to just having another wasted year.  It's frustrating & people are venting.

But if the goal is development, it's shaping up that one won't be met as well as it should given legit backstoppers.

This is where I land: better goaltending would beget better development.  Players were just doing their jobs early in the year.  Since Anderson went down, there has been a lot of "try too hard".  I think the lack of trust in the goaltenders has made them overthink and become less defencively aware.  And that's too bad -- IMHO, in Florida, had the team stuck to its discipline, they probably win that game.

This is why I want to pilfer Holtby from Dallas and take another contract off their hands.  Maybe get a 3rd team involved to off-load that contract to someone who could use that player.  Send Dallas a late pick back.

[Stads]

If UPL plays tomorrow, the total cap hit for all 5 goalies that played in a game for us is $3,853,333. That is less than the singular cap hit of 24 NHL goalies. I'm no mathematician but that seems to be a problem

 

[pi2000]

20 minutes ago, Stads said:

If UPL plays tomorrow, the total cap hit for all 5 goalies that played in a game for us is $3,853,333. That is less than the singular cap hit of 24 NHL goalies. I'm no mathematician but that seems to be a problem

 

Is there a moderately paid goaltender available who is worth his contract?

They've gone the cheap route because nothing else is a available.   They're not giving up futures for an heroic run to 9th place this season.

[kas23]

3 hours ago, K-9 said:

It’s funny to see so much teeth gnashing by people who predicted the very on ice results we are seeing. Never have so many been so upset by their own accurate predictions. And I think that mentality ties in to the idea that the “kids” will become demoralized and lose their “love of hockey” because it’s the fans who are demoralized and insist on projecting their scarred psyches onto the players. 

This is because most of us on here have now seen how good the Sabres really can be. With decent goaltending, this team can at least be competitive every night. We want to see that the team is at least in the game, which is what we saw in the first half of our season. However, ever since Anderson went down and Toker got overworked, it’s been blow-out after blow-out. Nobody here expects them to be contending for the playoffs. But we expect them to be competitive. The goalie situation has made this untenable. 

[Stads]

35 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

Is there a moderately paid goaltender available who is worth his contract?

They've gone the cheap route because nothing else is a available.   They're not giving up futures for an heroic run to 9th place this season.

At this point, the season is lost to me and I don't want them to make any more goalie moves. It speaks more to what they came into the season with at the position

[K-9]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

And nobody on the gnashing of teeth side of this is saying the players are guaranteed irreparable harm.  But, when there was even reasonable goaltending, several of these kids were showing that they were taking strides.  The development goal WAS getting met.  So, though from a standings perspective, this season is a waste like the dozen that came before it, at least there was something worth watching and that the fans could cling to.

Now, that is gone (at least for now) & there doesn't seem to be all that much separating pick 3 OA from pick 8 OA and it takes luck to be higher than that I any case.  So, we're back to just having another wasted year.  It's frustrating & people are venting.

But if the goal is development, it's shaping up that one won't be met as well as it should given legit backstoppers.

Were you ever under the impression that this was gonna be anything other than a wasted year, at least in terms of standings? There is still development happening before our eyes, but like any developmental process, it’s not always a linear process. There are gonna be fits and stops. Especially when goalie plans A thru Z have already blown up due to injury and lack of development by UPL. 

I get that it’s frustrating as hell for us fans, but it doesn’t have to be if we keep the expectations real. We are only 24 games in and we don’t have to pull out all of our hair before the All Star break. 

[PerreaultForever]

17 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

What exactly do you want him to do? Getting a solid goalie is far easier said than done. Should we trade our 1st for Gibson? Railing on something only can be tolerated for so long unless you have a strategy that doesn't mortgage the future. None of us are happy with the results; but no GM, even the greatest GMs, can make players appear out of thin air.

 

 

I agree there's not much he can do NOW, not without giving away assets no one wants to give away so that's that. Subban is the best you get. 

The time to make the moves was before the expansion draft, negotiating with the numerous teams that had to leave goalies exposed. Or sign a free agent back then. Heck even Martin Jones has played better than Dell. 

idk why people always talk about Gibson though. Why do they think he's even an option at any price? Anaheim's rebuild is soaring ahead and they're currently a playoff team. Helps when you have a goalie, good veteran leadership and of course DesLauriers 🙂

 

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, K-9 said:

Were you ever under the impression that this was gonna be anything other than a wasted year, at least in terms of standings? There is still development happening before our eyes, but like any developmental process, it’s not always a linear process. There are gonna be fits and stops. Especially when goalie plans A thru Z have already blown up due to injury and lack of development by UPL. 

I get that it’s frustrating as hell for us fans, but it doesn’t have to be if we keep the expectations real. We are only 24 games in and we don’t have to pull out all of our hair before the All Star break. 

Coming into the season, absolutely not.  So much so, came extremely close to asking to get my tix treated like the Canadian ticket holders & getting them bounced back another year.  But last minute decided to keep them.  And it had been the failure to retain Ullmark that triggered the really low expectations.

And the preseason pick was this'll be a 71 point season with them only being better than 3 other teams.  So, there were NO illusions entering the year.

But bringing in Subban just makes that Ullmark misstep all that more raw again.  Will get over it & almost nothing is ever as good or as bad as it seems, but right now that nerve is raw.  

The season HAD actually been entertaining the 1st month.  The last 3 weeks have had nearly as many unwatchable games as truly entertaining ones.  That can't continue, but yet there really is no reason to expect it won't.  They could can Granato, but it wouldn't really help & likely would be a big mistake.

Hopefully they're still looking for another goalie to at least get the team to Adams' sweet spot.  Until they get there, there's gonna be suffering.

 

[GASabresIUFAN]

So how do you solve the attendance problem?  Winning or at the very least putting a product on the ice that has a chance of winning each night.   We can do that right now with some real goaltending.  

[mjd1001]

6 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

So how do you solve the attendance problem?  Winning or at the very least putting a product on the ice that has a chance of winning each night.   We can do that right now with some real goaltending.  

I think the Sabres are a LOT more willing to 'stick to their plan' than to trade for a goalie to get a handful more wins that might, MIGHT lead to an increase in attendance toward the end of the season.

[SABRESfan]

Just now, mjd1001 said:

I think the Sabres are a LOT more willing to 'stick to their plan' than to trade for a goalie to get a handful more wins that might, MIGHT lead to an increase in attendance toward the end of the season.

You’re probably right but the situation at the Keybank Center is dire and will get worse before it gets better.  If ownership has no issue with an empty.. no, not two-thirds full, not half full.. but an EMPTY arena on a regular basis, then that’s precisely what they will have.  The fan base seems to be split about what is happening this season.  You have the camp that believes in this GM and is muttering “patience” and then you have the “I’m all out of patience” contingent.  I find myself somewhere in the middle.. 

[Thorny]

12 hours ago, SABRESfan said:

You’re probably right but the situation at the Keybank Center is dire and will get worse before it gets better.  If ownership has no issue with an empty.. no, not two-thirds full, not half full.. but an EMPTY arena on a regular basis, then that’s precisely what they will have.  The fan base seems to be split about what is happening this season.  You have the camp that believes in this GM and is muttering “patience” and then you have the “I’m all out of patience” contingent.  I find myself somewhere in the middle.. 

The average paying customer simply looks at the standings and decides if the team is good enough to put in the effort/cash to attend. That’s the majority. Those of us online preaching patience and delving into our 6th best wing prospect for reasons to hope are the minority. 

[Taro T]

12 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

So how do you solve the attendance problem?  Winning or at the very least putting a product on the ice that has a chance of winning each night.   We can do that right now with some real goaltending.  

THIS season, attendance can't be "fixed" at this point.  Expect it'll pick up after the Olympics, but even in a best case, it'll still be a 1/2 empty barn.

But, if they bring in a goalie now or in January at the latest, attendance for next year CAN be fixed.  Play competitive hockey down the stretch and DON'T raise prices next year and that combined with them getting Canadian STHers again can get them to where they were coming out of the lockout - ~14,000 per game to start the year & a full barn by the end if they play well enough to get people wanting to attend.

But, they have to whet people's appetites this year or they'll be looking at 8-10k in the building even with an open border & Canadian STHers who've already paid for next year coming back.

[Brawndo]

 

[Marvin]

1 hour ago, Brawndo said:

 

So we have an option if Dell gets injured and GMKA still won't trade?

[SabresBillsFan]

Their defense ain’t that good either. Yes a great goalie helps but you need the players in front of him to pick up a man, tie up sticks and start bodying people in front of the net. They run around like crazy in their own zone!