What Do the Sabres Look Like in 2 years?

[LGR4GM]

Basically if they had signed Ullmark (which they tried to do) most of you would not call this a tank.

23 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Well, if Vogl was right in reporting that they only offered Linus a 1-year or 2-year deal, they didn't try very hard.

Either way, pretty much everyone agreed that given Ullmark's injury history, the Sabres needed not only Ullmark but a 2nd credible NHL goalie if they wanted to give a young and developing team the backstopping in net that it will surely need as they try to emerge from the basement.  That didn't happen either.

Bottom line is that about a million goalies moved around this summer, which is what happens every summer, and again the Sabres sat out the game of musical chairs and instead signed a couple of fringe guys whom no one expects to be any good.

They have chosen, at this point anyway, to go into the season with non-credible NHL goaltending.  That is a choice a GM makes when he wants his team to lose.  And a GM that makes that choice is a GM that is tanking.  It may not be as complete a tank as GMTM's tank, but it's still a tank. 

I sincerely hope KA pulls a rabbit out of his hat and brings in a real goalie between now and the start of the season, but I'm not optimistic.

As for your other post about the Reino and other trades -- not sure whether that was directed at me, but I haven't said anything about those trades in the context of whether they are tanking.  FWIW, I don't view those trades as part of a tank.

 

What does this mean?

 

Absolutely.  This is one of the key reasons why tanking is a stupid and shortsighted strategy.

Got it. Ullmark wasn't signed so you will label it a tank. 

I 100% disagree and stated why. There's not point arguing further. 

[Thorny]

3 minutes ago, dudacek said:

No. Cozens and Mitts would still be top-three centres, and can be the top-two whenever it is serving the development goal.

We've already seen the model over the final month with Reinhart as the other centre. Cozens and Mitts still got to play in all those situations the organization wanted them to play, even with Sam as a clear #1. Henrique, or someone similar, would be even less of a block.

So why bring in Henrique if he's not a talent block? For the room? 

It's funny, cause I'm using Adams' word "block" but to me that would be a good thing. 

If the roster can function how Adams wants with someone as good as Reinhart in there, what does "block" even mean? Why didn't we just get a better centre

[SwampD]

13 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Basically if they had signed Ullmark (which they tried to do) most of you would not call this a tank.

Got it. Ullmark wasn't signed so you will label it a tank. 

I 100% disagree and stated why. There's not point arguing further. 

The point was, by only offering him a 1 or 2 year deal, they actually weren’t even trying to sign him.

Thus, tanking.

[SwampD]

55 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

They have never claimed that this year the goal was to get better.  This year is an investment in the young players that the Sabres have hitched the wagon to.

As these young players grow and mature they will be better and that is when the Sabres will be getting better.

Why, as a Sabres fan, am I supposed to be okay with that? Every team has young developing players. Why do we always have to get rid of our actual NHL players in order to make room for the developing ones?

Oh, that's right! THE FUTURE!

It's completely ***** ridiculous.

[LGR4GM]

16 minutes ago, SwampD said:

The point was, by only offering him a 1 or 2 year deal, they actually weren’t even trying to sign him.

Thus, tanking.

I don't agree. 

[dudacek]

29 minutes ago, Thorny said:

So why bring in Henrique if he's not a talent block? For the room? 

It's funny, cause I'm using Adams' word "block" but to me that would be a good thing. 

If the roster can function how Adams wants with someone as good as Reinhart in there, what does "block" even mean? Why didn't we just get a better centre

I thought Adams was pretty clear that by "block" he meant a veteran standing in the way of a kid getting opportunities to play in important situations.

Adding a Henrique is not a "block" to Casey Mittelstadt playing with the goalie pulled, or Dylan Cozens playing shifts against Sidney Crosby.

You bring in a Henrique because the team only has two NHL centres. It needs 4.

 

Edited August 25, 2021 by dudacek

[Thorny]

3 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I thought Adams was pretty clear that by "block" he meant a veteran standing in the way of a kid getting opportunities to play in important situations.

Adding a Henrique is not a "block" to Casey Mittelstadt playing with the goalie pulled, or Dylan Cozens playing shifts against Sidney Crosby.

You bring in a Henrique because the team only has two NHL centres. It needs 4.

 

[Weave]

43 minutes ago, Digger said:

Why are you convinced it had to be "all futures"?  I would love to hear the deals we did not agree to or consider.

I do remember Vancouver's GM Benning making a sarcastic comment (in an unrelated interview just before the draft) about a GM asking for "all futures" being pretty crazy.  He did not mention the Sabres but it seemed reasonable that he was referring to his dealings with Adams on Reinhart.

I am convinced it had to be all futures because of the requirement that KA laid out of having players on the roster that want to be here.  Selling NHL vets on the idea of wanting to be here is a hard sell, so futures are the return.

[Weave]

27 minutes ago, SwampD said:

The point was, by only offering him a 1 or 2 year deal, they actually weren’t even trying to sign him.

Thus, tanking.

I laid out that idea a while ago.  I think they were trying to some extent, but actually landing him wasn’t a priority.  If he bit, yay!  If not, they were good with that and the repercussions.

22 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Why, as a Sabres fan, am I supposed to be okay with that? Every team has young developing players. Why do we always have to get rid of our actual NHL players in order to make room for the developing ones?

Oh, that's right! THE FUTURE!

It's completely ***** ridiculous.

I think this time it was about culture change.  Would have preferred actual hockey trades instead of futures, but I do understand that getting vets who want to be here may be problematic.

[GASabresIUFAN]

As I’ve said before, KA pivoted from a support young team reset to a full rebuild once Ullmark bolted (and my guess is no one else of quality was interested in coming here).  However, I’m going to try to pull this thread back on the tracks.  Regardless of how we got here, this team is now firmly in the hands of the kids which for the most part is a good thing.  

The question is which of these kids are the new core and where will be in 2 years. As @dudacek pointed out there a few pieces of this puzzle waiting to appear. The proceeds from the Jack trade could significantly alter the perception of what we have today and going forward.  

How long until Rosen and the 2 second round Russians come to NA?  Does Rosen have a chance of being a Sabres in 2 years?  Is his possible move to center a significant positive development for the team?  

One thing that is bothering me is KA’s no blocking policy.  I think there is a fine line between not blocking a prospect vs supporting a young core.  We saw this past season how KA, RK and even Jbot blocked some of the kids.  Why were Asplund and Mitts on the taxi squad to start the season?  Hindsight is 20/20 but why were guys like Eakin, Sheahan or Reider ever playing ahead of either guy.  

This time I think KA has gone to far the other direction (see UPL).  

For this reset to work KA and his staff need to determine who is core is pretty quickly and supplement from there with vets where appropriate.  

 

 

[pi2000]

12 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

As I’ve said before, KA pivoted from a support young team reset to a full rebuild once Ullmark bolted (and my guess is no one else of quality was interested in coming here).  However, I’m going to try to pull this thread back on the tracks.  Regardless of how we got here, this team is now firmly in the hands of the kids which for the most part is a good thing.  

The question is which of these kids are the new core and where will be in 2 years. As @dudacek pointed out there a few pieces of this puzzle waiting to appear. The proceeds from the Jack trade could significantly alter the perception of what we have today and going forward.  

How long until Rosen and the 2 second round Russians come to NA?  Does Rosen have a chance of being a Sabres in 2 years?  Is his possible move to center a significant positive development for the team?  

One thing that is bothering me is KA’s no blocking policy.  I think there is a fine line between not blocking a prospect vs supporting a young core.  We saw this past season how KA, RK and even Jbot blocked some of the kids.  Why were Asplund and Mitts on the taxi squad to start the season?  Hindsight is 20/20 but why were guys like Eakin, Sheahan or Reider ever playing ahead of either guy.  

This time I think KA has gone to far the other direction (see UPL).  

For this reset to work KA and his staff need to determine who is core is pretty quickly and supplement from there with vets where appropriate.  

 

 

 

This is essentially an AHL team.     Young kids still learning the game, growing together under a developmental head coach.    They're currently at $8mil under the cap floor... lowest in the league.      After they sign Dahlin they're still +$20mil under the cap.     How is that NOT tanking?

I hate it and I don't want to hear about a silver lining or how good some of these kids might turn out.    This is a professional team that is supposed to be the class of the sport.   It's a sub-standard product and I have no idea why anybody would pay NHL ticket prices to watch an AHL team.      This could be an historically bad season, if they don't finish DFL I'll be shocked.          

[Crusader1969]

21 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Are we tanking for Wright?   Hope not.  Nothing against Wright but I have huge issues with losing. 
 

what the best case scenario for the Sabres this season ?  I'll be amazed if they don't finish bottom 5.   

[GASabresIUFAN]

11 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

 

This is essentially an AHL team.     Young kids still learning the game, growing together under a developmental head coach.    They're currently at $8mil under the cap floor... lowest in the league.      After they sign Dahlin they're still +$20mil under the cap.     How is that NOT tanking?

I hate it and I don't want to hear about a silver lining or how good some of these kids might turn out.    This is a professional team that is supposed to be the class of the sport.   It's a sub-standard product and I have no idea why anybody would pay NHL ticket prices to watch an AHL team.      This could be an historically bad season, if they don't finish DFL I'll be shocked.          

I'm as negative as anyone about the team's chances this coming year.  I agree that this is a full on reset.  I have stated in other threads that with our current goaltending we'll be lucky to win 20 games this coming season.  I'm as pissed as you are.  I thought if we got good goaltending, added a few stay at home veteran D and kept Sam, this could be a very good hockey team even with a ton of kids in the lineup.  Instead, KA blew it up.  No McCabe (or suitable replacement), No Ullmark (or suitable replacement) no upgrades anywhere in the lineup at all.  

That said, this thread is about hope for the future.  I was and am hoping for which pieces here today are the core.  Cozens, Mitts, Dahlin, and Power are pretty obvious.  However R2 is the player that intrigues me.  He is the one guy I can see forcing himself into the future core.  I just like the way he plays.  Also Asplund is a guy who I think will be this new core's Jochen Hecht.

Edited August 25, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[Buffalonill]

3 hours ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

I don't agree. 

We are not trying to lose.  We lost Linus.  When that happened the focus was on UPL and probably Levi becoming the next Sabre good goalie(s).

Why upset the long-term rebuild plan by bringing in some 'good' goalie that will not be part of any long-term plan?  Bring in some vets that can play well enough to get the Sabres through the year.  All these guys on 1 year deals are here for that ... 1 year.  If 1 year is not long enough someone will be signed for next year.  I have a good feeling that UPL does not need much more time to be NHL ready.  Maybe Levi too.

What are we trying to do then? I would love everyone to explain to me how we're going to replace jack and Sam production? . 

 

[DarthEbriate]

To the OP: They'll definitely need a new 3rd jersey to increase revenue. Some new threads for "the next newest newer-than-next generation of the rebuild" to hype the lottery pick in the 2023 Entry Draft.

To the more recent thread conversation of blocking. The problem management is creating is that the players we're losing because they aren't wanted here (a.k.a. didn't emphatically say they want to stay on for 5 more years of rebuild)... aren't blocking anyone. Until UPL is better than Linus, there's no blocking taking place. And when it does happen, then you can worry about moving Ullmark. Likewise, Reinhart isn't blocking anyone at either RW or C because he's solid at either position. In the offensive zone, no one on the roster is blocked by Eichel. Heck, Skinner keeps dropping to the 3rd/4th line every season, so he's not blocking anyone except financially. The GM's goal should be putting a roster together that is deep enough to raise hell line-by-line, survive injuries, and have roles for everyone. (And don't so massively overpay a player that they're unmovable.) Let the coach and the players sort out ice time via their own competition. You don't eliminate internal competition from your roster by getting rid of the better player today and bank solely on hope. It's up to the prospect to play to the level that there's no decision to be made. Play so that there is no conflict.

That's not to say we haven't had some blockages in the past (Staal blocked Mitts once we saw Staal was done and Eichel was broken; Eakin blocked either Cozens/Asplund depending on time of year; Girgensons blocked Angry Larry at center for a season). But that's on the coach to sort those out in season, not the GM on the roadmap of a rebuild.

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, Crusader1969 said:

what the best case scenario for the Sabres this season ?  I'll be amazed if they don't finish bottom 5.   

To mirror @pi2000's post

• Eichel is traded for 4 good young pieces, including a potential top 6 centre.
• Dahlin emerges as stud, leading the team in scoring and getting votes for the Norris.
• Casey Mittelstadt creates offence and puts up 60 points
• Cozens gets 40 points and looks good both ends of the ice
• The main Eichel return piece shows he is already a good NHL 3rd liner with obvious upside.
• One of Tage, Skinner, Bjork and Ruotsalanien emerges as a 25-goal scorer, while the other 3 combine for 45
• The majority of Peterka, Rosen, Poltapov, Quinn, Portillo and Levi dominate their leagues and climb up the prospect rankings
• UPL surprises and shows himself the equal to Ullmark, with Anderson a big improvement over Hutton in the back-up role.
• Butcher Hagg Miller and Pysyk put together decent seasons and are flipped for picks at the deadline.
• Johnson and Power sign as their replacements and immediately show they are NHL-ready adding to good showing s from Samuelsson and Jokiharju.
• The team works hard, is entertaining most nights, finishes with 70-75 points, wins the lottery and takes Wright.

Edited August 25, 2021 by dudacek

[DarthEbriate]

1 hour ago, pi2000 said:

This is essentially an AHL team.     Young kids still learning the game, growing together under a developmental head coach.    They're currently at $8mil under the cap floor... lowest in the league.      After they sign Dahlin they're still +$20mil under the cap.     How is that NOT tanking?

I hate it and I don't want to hear about a silver lining or how good some of these kids might turn out.    This is a professional team that is supposed to be the class of the sport.   It's a sub-standard product and I have no idea why anybody would pay NHL ticket prices to watch an AHL team.      This could be an historically bad season, if they don't finish DFL I'll be shocked.          

It's semantics at this point. We're not tanking; we've already tanked. We finished last and we're the worst team over the last 5 years and we're the worst team over the last 10 years. We aren't blowing up anything of value to plummet in the standings.

Now --- if we get off to a great start, we could tank this season if we start selling off good or overachieving players in an effort to keep pace with... say... Arizona. (I mean, they signed Hutton. Dell is at least better than Hutton, right?) If we're 5 games better than Arizona and we trade Dahlin (our lone All-Star representative) for futures, then that would be tanking again.

[Digger]

22 minutes ago, dudacek said:

To mirror @pi2000's post

• Eichel is traded for 4 good young pieces, including a potential top 6 centre.
• Dahlin emerges as stud, leading the team in scoring and getting votes for the Norris.
• Casey Mittelstadt creates offence and puts up 60 points
• Cozens gets 40 points and looks good both ends of the ice
• The main Eichel return piece shows he is already a good NHL 3rd liner with obvious upside.
• One of Tage, Skinner, Bjork and Ruotsalanien emerges as a 25-goal scorer, while the other 3 combine for 45
• The majority of Peterka, Rosen, Poltapov, Quinn, Portillo and Levi dominate their leagues and climb up the prospect rankings
• UPL surprises and shows himself the equal to Ullmark, with Anderson a big improvement over Hutton in the back-up role.
• Butcher Hagg Miller and Pysyk put together decent seasons and are flipped for picks at the deadline.
• Johnson and Power sign as their replacements and immediately show they are NHL-ready adding to good showing s from Samuelsson and Jokiharju.
• The team works hard, is entertaining most nights, finishes with 70-75 points, wins the lottery and takes Wright.

Yep, that's best case (well written and thought out). 

I hope that we come closer to the best case scenario you outlined than the worst case scenario.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

3 hours ago, SwampD said:

Why, as a Sabres fan, am I supposed to be okay with that? Every team has young developing players. Why do we always have to get rid of our actual NHL players in order to make room for the developing ones?

Oh, that's right! THE FUTURE!

It's completely ***** ridiculous.

Hey, I'm not okay with it, I don't think that anyone should be.  I was on record as wanting the Sabres NOT to trade Samson, nor Jack.  Risto yes.

We were told that this was going to happen, so we better deal with it, or stop following the team, at least for a while.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

1 hour ago, Buffalonill said:

What are we trying to do then? I would love everyone to explain to me how we're going to replace jack and Sam production? . 

 

The Sabres can't right now, but that does not mean that they are trying, or wanting, to lose.

[jsb]

3 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

One thing that is bothering me is KA’s no blocking policy.  I think there is a fine line between not blocking a prospect vs supporting a young core.  We saw this past season how KA, RK and even Jbot blocked some of the kids.  Why were Asplund and Mitts on the taxi squad to start the season?  Hindsight is 20/20 but why were guys like Eakin, Sheahan or Reider ever playing ahead of either guy.

I'm guessing you weren't very good in history class, the reason those guys were picked up at all was because the Sabres had a historically bad PK team the year before and they were all looked at as upgrades in that department. Otherwise I don't have an issue with your post except that if it smells like a tank and looks like a tank, IT'S A TANK. Having said that the start of this one has some young pieces that have the ability to grow into a team unlike the previous reset, that blew it up and was left with little in the tank/depth.

[Buffalonill]

1 hour ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

The Sabres can't right now, but that does not mean that they are trying, or wanting, to lose.

If they're trying to win they wouldn't trade sam,Ristolainen for a bunch of futures and  Signed perhaps the worst goalie tendom I've ever seen.

And now we're gonna trade our franchise center for futures .

And probably have Girgensons  as our 1st line center .

Thats tanking 101 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2021 by Buffalonill

[JohnC]

5 hours ago, SwampD said:

The point was, by only offering him a 1 or 2 year deal, they actually weren’t even trying to sign him.

Thus, tanking.

According to some reports Ullmark through his agent was asking for a 6 year term for $36 m from Buffalo. He ended up signing a 4 yr contract with Boston for $20 M. The amount of money he wanted certainly was a factor but the the 6 yr term he was asking for was more problematic. The organization made the right decision in not signing him. Ullmark did what was right for himself and the GM made the right decision for the organization. 

https://buffalonews.com/sports/sabres/linus-ullmarks-exit-opens-door-for-ukko-pekka-luukkonen-to-be-sabres-starter/article_7af9bba6-f0af-11eb-935d-07125018f070.html

 

[SabresVet]

5 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

As I’ve said before, KA pivoted from a support young team reset to a full rebuild once Ullmark bolted (and my guess is no one else of quality was interested in coming here).  However, I’m going to try to pull this thread back on the tracks.  Regardless of how we got here, this team is now firmly in the hands of the kids which for the most part is a good thing.  

One thing that is bothering me is KA’s no blocking policy.  I think there is a fine line between not blocking a prospect vs supporting a young core.  We saw this past season how KA, RK and even Jbot blocked some of the kids.  Why were Asplund and Mitts on the taxi squad to start the season?  Hindsight is 20/20 but why were guys like Eakin, Sheahan or Reider ever playing ahead of either guy.  

This time I think KA has gone to far the other direction (see UPL).  

For this reset to work KA and his staff need to determine who is core is pretty quickly and supplement from there with vets where appropriate.  

It's short-sighted to think that one player (Ullmark) dictated the GM's roster planning for 2021-22.  Adams knew heading into the off-season that he was going to trade Eichel, Reinhart, and Ristolainen to go with the youth.  But based on their goaltending moves, I don't believe they considered Ullmark would move on.  

From a managerial perspective, I think Adams started formulating his rebuild plan by the end of the season.  That is, remove as many of the "guys who don't want to be here" and see what these young players have.  Besides, Adams watched this roster fail to perform under RK and has been watching this team for a while - both before his GM tenure and now in that role.  

[Zamboni]

7 hours ago, SwampD said:

The point was, by only offering him a 1 or 2 year deal, they actually weren’t even trying to sign him.

Thus, tanking.

I thought It was much more than 2 years.