Roster Off-Season Gameplan

[Thorny]

15 minutes ago, Hoss said:

We should definitely trade some of our bottom six players for guys like Zegras and other potentially franchise-changing players then.

Haha

But seriously, we *finally* have a Cozens and a Mittelstadt etc, and almost the exact moment we do, we move the piece that keeps everyone else in their proper slot?

hard pass from me 

[WildCard]

4 minutes ago, Hoss said:

Making actual change and not just shuffling the chairs on the titanic a million times hoping it makes a difference. You have the chance to turn one asset into many which is an enticing opportunity. If you get it right it changes the fortunes of the franchise. If you get it wrong, well, you don’t have far to fall.

This isn’t me saying it’s the direction I would’ve picked two months ago but it has its appeal.

Yeah, I get all that. I'm just not convinced Eichel/Reinhart is the problem. Get some actual depth, a goalie, and a competent head coach IMO

[Hoss]

8 minutes ago, WildCard said:

Yeah, I get all that. I'm just not convinced Eichel/Reinhart is the problem. Get some actual depth, a goalie, and a competent head coach IMO

I don’t think anyone thinks they’re the problem. I’ve never seen anybody say that but it keeps getting repeated. They’re definitely not the problem but they don’t appear to be the solution right now either. The assets they return could very well be the answer.

[WildCard]

2 minutes ago, Hoss said:

I don’t think anyone thinks they’re the problem. I’ve never seen anybody say that but it keeps getting repeated. They’re definitely not the problem but they don’t appear to be the solution right now either. The assets they return could very well be the answer.

I just can't get behind a very proven 1C and 1RW (if not 2C) not being the solution. Don't get me wrong, I totally get what you're saying, but I just don't agree with trading away your best players because the team as a whole has produced the expected result so far. 

[Thorny]

4 minutes ago, Hoss said:

I don’t think anyone thinks they’re the problem. I’ve never seen anybody say that but it keeps getting repeated. They’re definitely not the problem but they don’t appear to be the solution right now either. The assets they return could very well be the answer.

They aren't THE solution because they CAN'T be the solution - you need a team, they need support. The new guys we bring in will also need us to add support. But if we are going to need to add support anyways, why not just add it to Jack, as he's going to be better than anyone we get in a trade. 

The only way it makes sense to move Jack is if he has asked out (I do not believe that to be the case) or if you believe his injury to be unworkable. 

[Hoss]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

They aren't THE solution because they CAN'T be the solution - you need a team, they need support. The new guys we bring in will also need us to add support. But if we are going to need to add support anyways, why not just add it to Jack, as he's going to be better than anyone we get in a trade. 

The only way it makes sense to move Jack is if he has asked out (I do not believe that to be the case) or if you believe his injury to be unworkable. 

That certainly should’ve been the plan and they tried to do this (but failed) with guys like Okposo and Skinner. They succeeded with guys like Kane and O’Reilly but got cheap and impatient.

[Dr. Who]

10 minutes ago, Hoss said:

That certainly should’ve been the plan and they tried to do this (but failed) with guys like Okposo and Skinner. They succeeded with guys like Kane and O’Reilly but got cheap and impatient.

Cheap and impatient is never going to land you the girl . . . 

[PerreaultForever]

7 hours ago, Thorny said:

I would argue what “isn’t working” ISN’T our best players, and, in fact, the dearth of talent on the rest of the roster. But what do I know 

It's the way the pieces fit together (or don't fit in this case) and how the TEAM plays as a while and interacts with each other. the lack of identity, pride, etc.  That has to be fixed. Current core can't lead and this is already proven. 

[Thorny]

1 minute ago, PerreaultForever said:

It's the way the pieces fit together (or don't fit in this case) and how the TEAM plays as a while and interacts with each other. the lack of identity, pride, etc.  That has to be fixed. Current core can't lead and this is already proven. 

Talent is certainly a part of the equation. And no one can claim that we've had a sufficient amount of talent. You cannot claim to know the current core can't lead when they haven't been given a proper squad to lead. Maybe they can't, but we absolutely do not know that because Eichel couldn't drag 2C Marcus Johansson and a goalie named Hutton who can't see to the playoffs. 

[PerreaultForever]

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

Talent is certainly a part of the equation. And no one can claim that we've had a sufficient amount of talent. You cannot claim to know the current core can't lead when they haven't been given a proper squad to lead. Maybe they can't, but we absolutely do not know that because Eichel couldn't drag 2C Marcus Johansson and a goalie named Hutton who can't see to the playoffs. 

Oh come on, you can see it on the bench. Eichel smashes his sticks sulks, hangs his head. Reinhart just sits there like he's elsewhere. You don't see them encouraging, interacting, talking to the new guys, etc.  You watched them. You see how the good teams behave. It's damn obvious they are not leaders.

Risto will hit some people or play hard and he's fine actually, it's just psychologically I think he's a little broken. Exaggerated expectations, years of losing, it's just time. I think he tried his best, he's just not that #1 guy he was told he was. 

Skinner? He's just a useless piece of *****. No comments on him. 

[Radar]

6 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Talent is certainly a part of the equation. And no one can claim that we've had a sufficient amount of talent. You cannot claim to know the current core can't lead when they haven't been given a proper squad to lead. Maybe they can't, but we absolutely do not know that because Eichel couldn't drag 2C Marcus Johansson and a goalie named Hutton who can't see to the playoffs. 

Agree. Tbe depth of this team is weak. Goaltending sub par. 

[Hoss]

43 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

Cheap and impatient is never going to land you the girl . . . 

But you might land a girl when she realizes your box is much bigger on the inside.

[WildCard]

8 minutes ago, Hoss said:

But you might land a girl when she realizes your box is much bigger on the inside.

[Marvin]

Question: Can this team be built now with two lines of youth getting protection while veterans take the harder minutes?  And can you make them so that the veterans are effective enough to allow the youth to feast on the bottoms of most rosters?  This looks like a way to actually threaten the playoffs -- beat the opposition with will and depth.

IMHO, it is much easier to land the other team's current #2/3C in an Eichel or Reinhart trade because he becomes an overpriced #3/4C after the trade.  As the team is now, you would have Girgensons - #3C - Okposo and Skinner - #2C - Olofsson getting harder minutes while Asplund-Mittlestadt-Thompson and Ruotsalainen-Cozens-Bjork get mostly offencive starts.  (I personally would try to trade excess skill for excess will, but that's my bias.)

Your next 3 up would be the prospects and depth players that come in the Eichel and Reinhart packages.  (This presumes none of them are as useless as Sobotka, Eakin, et al.)  That seems like an eminently reasonable way of slotting the forwards next year.  Then, as the youth grows up, you increase their ice time and defencive responsibilities.

[Hoss]

17 minutes ago, WildCard said:

[Marvin]

Leadership is a lot easier with talent.  During some crucial games, Guy Lafleur sometimes had sex during intermission.

[dudacek]

5 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Oh come on, you can see it on the bench. Eichel smashes his sticks sulks, hangs his head. Reinhart just sits there like he's elsewhere. You don't see them encouraging, interacting, talking to the new guys, etc.  You watched them. You see how the good teams behave. It's damn obvious they are not leaders.

Risto will hit some people or play hard and he's fine actually, it's just psychologically I think he's a little broken. Exaggerated expectations, years of losing, it's just time. I think he tried his best, he's just not that #1 guy he was told he was. 

Skinner? He's just a useless piece of *****. No comments on him. 

I saw all of that, consistently for Sam, post-Eichel injury.

I think Adams plan might be to keep Sam this year, even if he won’t sign long-term, in order to shield and lead the youngsters. He’s gambling that Sam can find success in that role, and a home there as team starts to jell, and sign an extension.

If he gets a good return for Eichel and the team moves ahead it might work. 

But it’s a helluva risk.

4 hours ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

Leadership is a lot easier with talent.  During some crucial games, Guy Lafleur sometimes had sex during intermission.

Rejean Houle was on that roster for a reason.

[Dr. Who]

17 hours ago, Hoss said:

But you might land a girl when she realizes your box is much bigger on the inside.

Indeed, when the adventures of a Time Lord from Gallifrey began, it was thought a convenient device to instruct earth children about history. It quickly became evident that the real purpose was to defeat giant malevolent salt shakers and to pick up chicks.

[GASabresIUFAN]

12 hours ago, dudacek said:

I saw all of that, consistently for Sam, post-Eichel injury.

I think Adams plan might be to keep Sam this year, even if he won’t sign long-term, in order to shield and lead the youngsters. He’s gambling that Sam can find success in that role, and a home there as team starts to jell, and sign an extension.

If he gets a good return for Eichel and the team moves ahead it might work. 

But it’s a helluva risk.

Rejean Houle was on that roster for a reason.

I'm beginning to think the same thing.  He saw what I saw in a spine of Sam, Mitts and Cozens; effort on each shift and a much more dynamic forwards when coupled with hard workers like Asplund and R2.  I think they also brought the best out of VO.

The question I have and we all should have is can KA/Karmanos negotiate a better return for Eichel then Jbot did for ROR.  I highly doubt it, but one can only hope.

At this point everything else has failed might as well take a risk.

 

[thewookie1]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I'm beginning to think the same thing.  He saw what I saw in a spine of Sam, Mitts and Cozens; effort on each shift and a much more dynamic forwards when coupled with hard workers like Asplund and R2.  I think they also brought the best out of VO.

The question I have and we all should have is can KA/Karmanos negotiate a better return for Eichel then Jbot did for ROR.  I highly doubt it, but one can only hope.

At this point everything else has failed might as well take a risk.

 

A curiosity I've always had is whether Eichel isn't a good team player or he's unintentionally made look that way. As in, when Eichel plays, 90% of the team merely defaults to giving him the puck and standing around. Yet when he was injured the players actually seemed to try and adjust and work together game to game. Does Eichel demand the puck constantly? Alternatively it could be the other 22 players wanting Eichel to literally carry them to wins so they personally don't have to worry about it; and without that pressure release they are all forced to play harder.   

Dahlin is one of the few players who, when confident, never merely deferred to Eichel. Yet when he wasn't confident he was just as willing to force feed Eichel.

Perhaps, Eichel isn't a bad guy or teammate but he's been placed on this pedestal. Most of the team never get their confidence up and thus immediately give up and hand it off to their best player. When Eichel was out, guys like Mitts and Reinhart seemed to honestly grow up. There was no Eichel safety blanket; figure it out or just keep losing. Essentially an even less successful version of the Oilers reliance on McDavid and Draisital to effectively carry the team.  

 

In a strange sense, I wonder if that's what we did wrong to begin with. We gave players this idea that all we need to do is ride Eichel to success instead of a team working towards the playoffs. Essentially if all the players feel they are truly important to a piece of the whole, an Eichel will actually be a full-blown star since he's merely the cherry on top of a solid team. All superstars thrive when they are a major cog within a machine versus the only cog.

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 hour ago, thewookie1 said:

A curiosity I've always had is whether Eichel isn't a good team player or he's unintentionally made look that way. As in, when Eichel plays, 90% of the team merely defaults to giving him the puck and standing around. Yet when he was injured the players actually seemed to try and adjust and work together game to game. Does Eichel demand the puck constantly? Alternatively it could be the other 22 players wanting Eichel to literally carry them to wins so they personally don't have to worry about it; and without that pressure release they are all forced to play harder.   

Dahlin is one of the few players who, when confident, never merely deferred to Eichel. Yet when he wasn't confident he was just as willing to force feed Eichel.

Perhaps, Eichel isn't a bad guy or teammate but he's been placed on this pedestal. Most of the team never get their confidence up and thus immediately give up and hand it off to their best player. When Eichel was out, guys like Mitts and Reinhart seemed to honestly grow up. There was no Eichel safety blanket; figure it out or just keep losing. Essentially an even less successful version of the Oilers reliance on McDavid and Draisital to effectively carry the team.  

 

In a strange sense, I wonder if that's what we did wrong to begin with. We gave players this idea that all we need to do is ride Eichel to success instead of a team working towards the playoffs. Essentially if all the players feel they are truly important to a piece of the whole, an Eichel will actually be a full-blown star since he's merely the cherry on top of a solid team. All superstars thrive when they are a major cog within a machine versus the only cog.

Deferral to Jack and his talent is an issue.  I think the locker room expected Jack to carry the team and then suddenly he was gone (and Rasputin was gone) and a breath of fresh air wafted into the locker room.  Sam moved to center and played his best hockey although he is the one guy who seems to produce with or without Jack.  

 

[thewookie1]

Perhaps in the end we tanked too hard; we needed a 1C primarily because no team of middling centers would get us anywhere in the playoffs unless Miller played out of his mind.

 

The other thought I have is that McDavid was so integral to Murray's plans that not getting him specifically set his entire strategy into a tailspin. Essentially, regardless of the skill difference between Eichel and McDavid; it was the personality that was the biggest difference. Eichel was a brash Bostonian kid who devoured his savior of the franchise moniker. He's not a bad guy, just more aggressive in his persona. McDavid is the stereotypical Canadian player; very competitive still but far more outwardly quiet and boring. I highly doubt McDavid becomes best buds with Evander Kane and even if given the Captaincy, ROR likely backs down and never sulks due to who the player was. Furthermore McDavid would of been more likely to side with Gionta's supposed faction. Effectively our acquisitions worked better on paper with a McDavid personality type better than an Eichel type.

What we needed was either a couple very well known players which Eichel would of been so star-struck he would of listened to whatever they said or a Joe Thornton type who is a bit crazy but a masterful manipulator in terms of channeling the more brash youngsters into pouring it into their on ice play.

[dudacek]

2 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

A curiosity I've always had is whether Eichel isn't a good team player or he's unintentionally made look that way. As in, when Eichel plays, 90% of the team merely defaults to giving him the puck and standing around. Yet when he was injured the players actually seemed to try and adjust and work together game to game. Does Eichel demand the puck constantly? Alternatively it could be the other 22 players wanting Eichel to literally carry them to wins so they personally don't have to worry about it; and without that pressure release they are all forced to play harder.   

Dahlin is one of the few players who, when confident, never merely deferred to Eichel. Yet when he wasn't confident he was just as willing to force feed Eichel.

Perhaps, Eichel isn't a bad guy or teammate but he's been placed on this pedestal. Most of the team never get their confidence up and thus immediately give up and hand it off to their best player. When Eichel was out, guys like Mitts and Reinhart seemed to honestly grow up. There was no Eichel safety blanket; figure it out or just keep losing. Essentially an even less successful version of the Oilers reliance on McDavid and Draisital to effectively carry the team.  

 

In a strange sense, I wonder if that's what we did wrong to begin with. We gave players this idea that all we need to do is ride Eichel to success instead of a team working towards the playoffs. Essentially if all the players feel they are truly important to a piece of the whole, an Eichel will actually be a full-blown star since he's merely the cherry on top of a solid team. All superstars thrive when they are a major cog within a machine versus the only cog.

I think this is where Adams head might be at.

 

[Brawndo]

 

 Eichel to Anaheim for 3OA, Comtois and Perrault plus a 2022 2nd. If they want to include Henrique the 2nd becomes a conditional 1st, Lottery Protected in 2022.

Samson with an extension to The Kings for 8OA and Turcotte, yes it’s an overpayment by the Kings but Samson will have a lot of suitors. 

In this scenario draft Power, Beniers, Guenther, or Elkund at 3OA and MacTavish/Kent Johnson at 8 OA. 

(Still think Beniers should be First OA) 

Or Eichel to Seattle for 2nd Overall and One or Two Top Choices of Their Expansion Haul( Whether it be picks or players) plus a few other assets.  Seattle’s Analytics Department would see the value of having an elite 25 Year Old Center to start a Franchise with and that Eichel’s long term value would exceed Beniers. And players of Jack’s Ability to not become available often, which really sucks if you are a Sabres Fan. 

Reinhart(with an extension)plus Ryan Johnson to Anaheim for 3OA. Anaheim is under pressure to do something quickly. They add a Top 6 Forward with team control and A Top 4 LHD Prospect
 

In these scenarios draft Power, Beniers and Elkund or Guenther. 
 

Overpay Phillip Danualt on a 4 year deal to be the 1C while Cozens and Mitts are sheltered. 

Then take advantage of Capped Out Teams and pay less for good players in trades. 
 

Leave Quinn and JJP in Rochester to develop properly, then they along with the 2021 Draft Picks will be ready for 2022 or late season 2021 call ups. 
 

In reality I would rather keep Jack and Sam.

Edited June 11, 2021 by Brawndo

[Hoss]

29 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

 

 Eichel to Anaheim for 3OA, Comtois and Perrault plus a 2022 2nd. If they want to include Henrique the 2nd becomes a conditional 1st, Lottery Protected in 2022.

Samson with an extension to The Kings for 8OA and Turcotte, yes it’s an overpayment by the Kings but Samson will have a lot of suitors. 

In this scenario draft Power, Beniers, Guenther, or Elkund at 3OA and MacTavish/Kent Johnson at 8 OA. 

(Still think Beniers should be First OA) 

Or Eichel to Seattle for 2nd Overall and One or Two Top Choices of Their Expansion Haul( Whether it be picks or players) plus a few other assets.  Seattle’s Analytics Department would see the value of having an elite 25 Year Old Center to start a Franchise with and that Eichel’s long term value would exceed Beniers. And players of Jack’s Ability to not become available often, which really sucks if you are a Sabres Fan. 

Reinhart(with an extension)plus Ryan Johnson to Anaheim for 3OA. Anaheim is under pressure to do something quickly. They add a Top 6 Forward with team control and A Top 4 LHD Prospect
 

In these scenarios draft Power, Beniers and Elkund or Guenther. 
 

Overpay Phillip Danualt on a 4 year deal to be the 1C while Cozens and Mitts are sheltered. 

Then take advantage of Capped Out Teams and pay less for good players in trades. 
 

Leave Quinn and JJP in Rochester to develop properly, then they along with the 2021 Draft Picks will be ready for 2022 or late season 2021 call ups. 
 

In reality I would rather keep Jack and Sam.

If that’s the Eichel trade I’d be absolutely livid. Like throwing ***** and considering abandoning the team angry.