freester Posted June 13, 2021 Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 1 minute ago, Hoss said: Chandler Stephenson, Leo Komorov, Ondrej Palat, Artturi Lehkonen. Those are the names of four players playing on the first line of the four remaining teams. It is not realistic to expect to have three first-line players, six top-six players, etc etc. For cost reasons. Olofsson plays a role that can be valued on a line like that. Disagree. He can’t defend and forecheck against a teams top line. Those teams you mentioned have much greater talent and have chosen to spread their talent among the top 3 lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted June 13, 2021 Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 3 minutes ago, Kong said: Mark Schiefele is apparently in play...https://www.foreverblueshirts.com/rangers-roundup-mark-scheifele-trade-talk-and-gerard-gallant-provides-update/ I'd take Mark on my team anytime. I think I was the first card-carrying member of the Eichel to Winnipeg club worldwide 3 minutes ago, Hoss said: Chandler Stephenson, Leo Komorov, Ondrej Palat, Artturi Lehkonen. Those are the names of four players playing on the first line of the four remaining teams. It is not realistic to expect to have three first-line players, six top-six players, etc etc. For cost reasons. Olofsson plays a role that can be valued on a line like that. Agree - ideally you do want better than VO but that's not the same as an absolute statement that you "can't" win with him there, which just isn't the case 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewookie1 Posted June 13, 2021 Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Hoss said: Tkachuk gives me the same feeling. And I imagine with his contract the way it is he probably asks for $9M a year in his next deal ... so ultimately by trading Jack we’d save $1M a year but go to a young LW. That scares me. I'd make sure we can extend him, prior to any trade, at about 8 mil, after all he trended down last year. I've got Eichel, Johnson, and Thompson for Zary, Tkachuk, Lindholm, 2021 1st and 2022 3rd Risto to Anaheim for their 2021 2nd and 2022 3rd BUF 2021 2nd and 2022 3rd for Garland Olofsson & Reinhart to LAK for Turcotte, 2021 1st and TOR's 2022 3rd Skinner - Lindholm - Garland Tkachuk - Mitts - Cozens Ruots - Turcotte - Bjork Asplund - Girgs - 4RW Dahlin - Jokiharju McCabe - Borgen Bryson - VET Ullmark Mrazek Okposo is a scratch presently Signings: Garland 4x4.5mil McCabe 1x2.5mil Ullmark 3x4.5mil Mrazek 1x3.5mil Mitts 5x3mil Dahlin 8x8mil Tkachuk 6x8mil extension Jokiharju 2x2.5mil Borgen 3x1.5mil Asplund 2x1.35mil We'd still have 11.7mil in cap space for the remaining holes. Edited June 13, 2021 by thewookie1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted June 13, 2021 Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 9 minutes ago, Kong said: Mark Schiefele is apparently in play...https://www.foreverblueshirts.com/rangers-roundup-mark-scheifele-trade-talk-and-gerard-gallant-provides-update/ I'd take Mark on my team anytime. The way that team completely folded without him he’s exactly the type of player I want. I also want this team to be first in line right now. Make things happen. You might even consider trying to make a move for a guy like Schiefele BEFORE the Eichel deal. I wonder if you can flip Reinhart and Risto for Schiefele (something like this, probably need to add) and then go get a guy like Garland or another good top-six winger and then see if this gets Jack back on board. That shouldn’t be a priority but it’s a possibility to consider. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted June 13, 2021 Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 8 minutes ago, thewookie1 said: I'd make sure we can extend him, prior to any trade, at about 8 mil, after all he trended down last year. I've got Eichel, Johnson, and Thompson for Zary, Tkachuk, Lindholm, 2021 1st and 2022 3rd Risto to Anaheim for their 2021 2nd and 2022 3rd BUF 2021 2nd and 2022 3rd for Garland Olofsson & Reinhart to LAK for Turcotte, 2021 1st and TOR's 2022 3rd Skinner - Lindholm - Garland Tkachuk - Mitts - Cozens Ruots - Turcotte - Bjork Asplund - Girgs - 4RW Dahlin - Jokiharju McCabe - Borgen Bryson - VET Ullmark Mrazek Okposo is a scratch presently Signings: Garland 4x4.5mil McCabe 1x2.5mil Ullmark 3x4.5mil Mrazek 1x3.5mil Mitts 5x3mil Dahlin 8x8mil Tkachuk 6x8mil extension Jokiharju 2x2.5mil Borgen 3x1.5mil Asplund 2x1.35mil We'd still have 11.7mil in cap space for the remaining holes. I like this but I'd much sooner get Cozens at C over Turcotte 5 minutes ago, Hoss said: The way that team completely folded without him he’s exactly the type of player I want. I also want this team to be first in line right now. Make things happen. You might even consider trying to make a move for a guy like Schiefele BEFORE the Eichel deal. I wonder if you can flip Reinhart and Risto for Schiefele (something like this, probably need to add) and then go get a guy like Garland or another good top-six winger and then see if this gets Jack back on board. That shouldn’t be a priority but it’s a possibility to consider. Don't think you can get Scheifele without Eichel. They are firmly in win now mode, they can't trade their 1C and not get one back. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted June 13, 2021 Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 Eichel Reinhart / Scheifele Ehlers swap probably gets it done straight up For those keeping track it's two players back better than Tkachuk. But it cuts down on the futures quotient Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted June 13, 2021 Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 42 minutes ago, Weave said: Tkachuk and Cozens would be a hard line to play against. I like this, but my mind keeps going back to what a killer combo brother Brady was with Casey Mitts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doohickie Posted June 13, 2021 Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 8 minutes ago, Thorny said: Don't think you can get Scheifele without Eichel. They are firmly in win now mode, they can't trade their 1C and not get one back. I'd do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flashsabre Posted June 13, 2021 Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 That article doesn’t mention that Schiefele available at all. Just speculating if he somehow becomes available. I wouldn’t trade Sciefele for Eichel anyways. Sciefele will be 29. Sabres need young assets, this is going to be a rebuild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klos1963 Posted June 13, 2021 Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 24 minutes ago, thewookie1 said: I'd make sure we can extend him, prior to any trade, at about 8 mil, after all he trended down last year. I've got Eichel, Johnson, and Thompson for Zary, Tkachuk, Lindholm, 2021 1st and 2022 3rd Risto to Anaheim for their 2021 2nd and 2022 3rd BUF 2021 2nd and 2022 3rd for Garland Olofsson & Reinhart to LAK for Turcotte, 2021 1st and TOR's 2022 3rd Skinner - Lindholm - Garland Tkachuk - Mitts - Cozens Ruots - Turcotte - Bjork Asplund - Girgs - 4RW Dahlin - Jokiharju McCabe - Borgen Bryson - VET Ullmark Mrazek Okposo is a scratch presently Signings: Garland 4x4.5mil McCabe 1x2.5mil Ullmark 3x4.5mil Mrazek 1x3.5mil Mitts 5x3mil Dahlin 8x8mil Tkachuk 6x8mil extension Jokiharju 2x2.5mil Borgen 3x1.5mil Asplund 2x1.35mil We'd still have 11.7mil in cap space for the remaining holes. 8x8mil for Dahlin???? That's insane. He hasn't earned that yet. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted June 13, 2021 Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 16 minutes ago, Thorny said: Don't think you can get Scheifele without Eichel. They are firmly in win now mode, they can't trade their 1C and not get one back. Very unlikely but I’d make the call and see what is possible. 4 minutes ago, Flashsabre said: That article doesn’t mention that Schiefele available at all. Just speculating if he somehow becomes available. I wouldn’t trade Sciefele for Eichel anyways. Sciefele will be 29. Sabres need young assets, this is going to be a rebuild. Yup. I’m not all that interested in Schiefele for Eichel unless we get multiple other pieces which I’m not sure makes sense for Winnipeg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted June 13, 2021 Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 15 minutes ago, Thorny said: Eichel Reinhart / Scheifele Ehlers swap probably gets it done straight up For those keeping track it's two players back better than Tkachuk. But it cuts down on the futures quotient Absolutely not. We’re giving up the better pieces (Eichel > Schiefele, Samson > Ehlers, at worst the value there is very close). And if having those two plus their other pieces didn’t work for Winnipeg why would it work with us on a worse roster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted June 13, 2021 Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 3 minutes ago, Hoss said: Absolutely not. We’re giving up the better pieces (Eichel > Schiefele, Samson > Ehlers, at worst the value there is very close). And if having those two plus their other pieces didn’t work for Winnipeg why would it work with us on a worse roster? Ehlers is better than Reinhart for sure, imo That's what makes the deal work. I assume a loss in any deal that's why I don't want to make one - but prioritizing the "now", this deal definitely gets us the closest return to equal out of all the deals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted June 13, 2021 Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 (edited) As to your question - Winnipeg's D is terrible, presumably Dahlin/Power give us a big advantage overall in future - plus the presence of another C, Cozens who, at projected development is better than their other Cs. At the very least until Dubois got there Goalie is another issue Also Calgary presents the same argument re: Winnipeg and winning. That deal had more futures but Scheifele Ehlers > Lindholm Tkachuk Edited June 13, 2021 by Thorny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted June 13, 2021 Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Thorny said: Ehlers is better than Reinhart for sure, imo That's what makes the deal work. I assume a loss in any deal that's why I don't want to make one - but prioritizing the "now", this deal definitely gets us the closest return to equal out of all the deals The difference in value between Eichel and Schiefele is WAY bigger than the gap between Samson and Ehlers. That deal sucks. 11 minutes ago, Thorny said: As to your question - Winnipeg's D is terrible, presumably Dahlin/Power give us a big advantage overall in future - plus the presence of another C, Cozens who, at projected development is better than their other Cs. At the very least until Dubois got there Goalie is another issue Also Calgary presents the same argument re: Winnipeg and winning. That deal had more futures but Scheifele Ehlers > Lindholm Tkachuk You’re not giving up Reinhart in the proposed Calgary deal and the futures are an important part of that deal. Edited June 13, 2021 by Hoss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klos1963 Posted June 13, 2021 Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 We need to get at least one NHL above average goalie in these deals. We have no NHL caliber goalies on our roster right now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted June 13, 2021 Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 4 minutes ago, Hoss said: The difference in value between Eichel and Schiefele is WAY bigger than the gap between Samson and Ehlers. That deal sucks. You’re not giving up Reinhart in the proposed Calgary deal. A part of the reason dealing Jack is the preferred mode at all in my estimation for KA is because of the injury situation. If it wasn't such a big factor we may not be moving him - if you combine this with the ~ 4 mil per savings in contract, I'm not sure the bold is true. Their points production is really pretty close. Let's look at points per game, so, not factoring in injury at all, even: Per 82, over career so far: Eichel : 78 points Scheifele : 72 points and Reinhart : 53 points Ehlers : 60 points Combined : Eichel and Sam - 131 points per 82, Scheifele and Ehlers - 132 points per 82 - - - Production wise, it's basically a toss up. Of course, there are team factors, but this is also per 82: we know injuries doesn't work on the eichel value side of the equation. In conclusion I think the "this deal sucks" bit is an overstatement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted June 13, 2021 Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 Already said we'll lose most any Eichel deal we make, but considering everyone knows how hard it is to "win" a trade for this type of player, if you look at a proposed deal where we actually deal Eichel, and Sam, and somehow manage to slightly *increase* the rate of now-NHL production within that deal, and think it sucks or looks terrible, and you are a lot more thrilled with some of these "futures" deals, perhaps that's an indication those deals are a little lofty in projection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted June 13, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 57 minutes ago, dudacek said: I like this, but my mind keeps going back to what a killer combo brother Brady was with Casey Mitts. Why? This has no relevance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted June 13, 2021 Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 14 minutes ago, Thorny said: A part of the reason dealing Jack is the preferred mode at all in my estimation for KA is because of the injury situation. If it wasn't such a big factor we may not be moving him - if you combine this with the ~ 4 mil per savings in contract, I'm not sure the bold is true. Their points production is really pretty close. Let's look at points per game, so, not factoring in injury at all, even: Per 82, over career so far: Eichel : 78 points Scheifele : 72 points and Reinhart : 53 points Ehlers : 60 points Combined : Eichel and Sam - 131 points per 82, Scheifele and Ehlers - 132 points per 82 - - - Production wise, it's basically a toss up. Of course, there are team factors, but this is also per 82: we know injuries doesn't work on the eichel value side of the equation. In conclusion I think the "this deal sucks" bit is an overstatement So with Eichel you’re getting six points per game better already with a 3.5 year age gap and the same production in the group with the same age gap still presenting. The value of Eichel is MUCH higher than Scheifele (both carry good value). 17 minutes ago, klos1963 said: We need to get at least one NHL above average goalie in these deals. We have no NHL caliber goalies on our roster right now. Strong disagree. It could be a piece but getting a goalie should not be a priority in these deals. It should be a priority in the offseason because of your last sentence but these are not the assets to use to get one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted June 13, 2021 Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 1 minute ago, Hoss said: So with Eichel you’re getting six points per game better already with a 3.5 year age gap and the same production in the group with the same age gap still presenting. The value of Eichel is MUCH higher than Scheifele (both carry good value). How much have you seen of Ehlers this year? I've watched quite a few of his games here and to me eye at least he's taken a big step this year. He was point a game, dynamic, and I think they Jets best player - been saying that all year. With his speed - I think there's a non-negligible chance he's a significantly better asset than Reinhart - especially considering, what's Reino going to sign for? Definitely not better than Ehlers 6+ per Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted June 13, 2021 Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 I'm not saying you wouldn't "lose" this deal, if Jack gets and stays healthy (which is a big ?), but we've come along way from "these deals are almost impossible to win" to a hockey trade like this being completely written off. Expectations are that high now? Or maybe people just like futures. It should be interesting to see how it all unfolds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kong Posted June 13, 2021 Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 Eichel might have a better scoring ceiling than Scheifele but Scheifele's team wins and Eichel's team doesn't. I haven't seen Eichel as a leader since day 1. He seems to think he's better than everyone else. Skill wise he's right but ...no one will run through a wall for a guy like that. Looking at the highlights, Scheifele's a team guy and his mentor: Dale Hawerchuk. I'd like a heart transplant like that, damn the age difference. The only bad thing I can see about Scheifele is I can't spell his name. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveoath Posted June 13, 2021 Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 1 hour ago, dudacek said: I like this, but my mind keeps going back to what a killer combo brother Brady was with Casey Mitts. Reinhart to Ottawa for Brady? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewookie1 Posted June 13, 2021 Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 1 hour ago, klos1963 said: 8x8mil for Dahlin???? That's insane. He hasn't earned that yet. The Athletic had an article regarding Dahlin's next contract and it boiled down to 2x5.5mil or 8x8mil Since on my scenario we'd have Cozens, Jokiharju, and Turcotte all coming off their respective contracts after 2 years. That's why I went long term with Dahlin who's agent turns out to be the same as Skinner's *ugh* On the topic of Eichel & Reinhart for Scheifele & Ehlers, I wouldn't do it. Let's just equate their present stats as equal. Scheifele is 28 and under contract for 3x6.125mil Ehlers is 25 and under contract for 4x6mil Reinhart is 25 and would likely get 7x7mil Eichel is 24 and has 5x10mil The major problem comes to Scheifele being much older than Eichel and under contract 3 more years versus 5. But worse, he's approaching the age where players drop off and they always seem to do that here. Ehlers vs Reinhart is more of a toss up. They both are 25 and contribute similar numbers but in different ways. IF Scheifele was a couple years younger I'd be far more willing as his timeline would line up better with the youngsters. In reality, we'd have him around 2 years as a solid to great player and 1 year of mediocre to solid play. Barring him turning into Gordie Howe, he will begin to waste away by the end of the contract meaning we'd either have no 1C, have to pray who we still have has become a legit 1C, pay Scheifele a lot to just likely be mediocre and kind of hold the 1C spot, or end up with a lesser version of our 2011/2012 teams where we had no 1C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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