Lines October 1st

[TrueBlueGED]

9 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

You've agreed that after a certain number of additional crappy seasons, you will admit that it was a mistake, right?  Is this the last one?

The season immediately after the tank was the best since the tank. That we have gotten worse since that season seems to suggest the rebuild was more of a problem than the tank itself.

[LGR4GM]

14 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

You've agreed that after a certain number of additional crappy seasons, you will admit that it was a mistake, right?  Is this the last one?

 

3 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

The season immediately after the tank was the best since the tank. That we have gotten worse since that season seems to suggest the rebuild was more of a problem than the tank itself.

As I have constantly argued. The tank did exactly what it was supposed to do. The problem was and continues to be the rebuild following the tank. 

[...]

4 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

The season immediately after the tank was the best since the tank. That we have gotten worse since that season seems to suggest the rebuild was more of a problem than the tank itself.

 

3 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

As I have constantly argued. The tank did exactly what it was supposed to do. The problem was and continues to be the rebuild following the tank. 

There is nothing else to say here - except the fact that they botched the rebuild brought us Dahlin, so I'm okay with that.  I think the significant botching started the summer of 2018.

[dudacek]

12 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I’m not some Vlad apologist, but I look at the other options and don’t really see where we have a good one.  I like Erod and have been a proponent, but he did nothing in camp to earn the slot.  Not having an option here is on Jbot.

However, the real strength of this team is likely the mobile defense.  Not only as you have said has Jbot upgraded the group with the additions of Pilut, Montour, Miller and Jokiharju, but once Montour and Pilut get healthy, maybe Jbot will finally be able to swing a trade to get an upgrade at 2 RW or 2C.

While I agree that Krueger thought Sobotka was better the ERod in camp, the difference must have been far greater than what was evident to me to overcome the obvious difference in last season’s performances.

Thompson was better than Skinner too, or if you want less extreme, Asplund outplayed Mittelstadt.

Ralph himself said resumes count for something.

[Taro T]

6 minutes ago, dudacek said:

While I agree that Krueger thought Sobotka was better the ERod in camp, the difference must have been far greater than what was evident to me to overcome the obvious difference in last season’s performances.

Thompson was better than Skinner too, or if you want less extreme, Asplund outplayed Mittelstadt.

Ralph himself said resumes count for something.

And again, Sobotka is apparently intelligent and a decent guy and apparently can also perform at a high level at the pace practices have.

Adding to that, Rodrigues is either a bit dumber, looks bad in practice, or a bit of both.  Because this is the 2nd year in a row, with a different coach, that Rodrigues finds himself getting benched early in the year and Sobotka finds himself in a spot where he'll get significant ice time.

Even though the in game results from the past season indicate that, if anything, those decisions should be nearly reversed.

[nfreeman]

23 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

The season immediately after the tank was the best since the tank. That we have gotten worse since that season seems to suggest the rebuild was more of a problem than the tank itself.

While you're right that it was indeed the tallest dwarf, they were still 3rd-worst in the conference that year.  It was much more of an insignificant blip than any kind of indicator of an effective strategy.

 

21 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

 

As I have constantly argued. The tank did exactly what it was supposed to do. The problem was and continues to be the rebuild following the tank. 

So -- is this the last crappy season that it will take for you to admit it was a mistake? 

In any case, the tank did not deliver a winning team, or even a "generational" player, so it's hard to see how it did what it was supposed to do.

[TrueBlueGED]

5 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

While you're right 

I'm declaring victory and leaving. 

[...]

Let's not forget RK apparently had some extensive conversations with the players over the summer to find out "how they want to play".  It's pretty clear that RK is mixing in variables other than stats and last year's performance to come to whatever conclusions he has thus far.  And again, one of those variables is unarguably Botterill.

[That Aud Smell]

13 minutes ago, Taro T said:

And again, Sobotka is apparently intelligent and a decent guy and apparently can also perform at a high level at the pace practices have.

Adding to that, Rodrigues is either a bit dumber, looks bad in practice, or a bit of both.  Because this is the 2nd year in a row, with a different coach, that Rodrigues finds himself getting benched early in the year and Sobotka finds himself in a spot where he'll get significant ice time.

Even though the in game results from the past season indicate that, if anything, those decisions should be nearly reversed.

He does have a sorta stupid face.

 

[LGR4GM]

14 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

While you're right that it was indeed the tallest dwarf, they were still 3rd-worst in the conference that year.  It was much more of an insignificant blip than any kind of indicator of an effective strategy.

 

So -- is this the last crappy season that it will take for you to admit it was a mistake? 

In any case, the tank did not deliver a winning team, or even a "generational" player, so it's hard to see how it did what it was supposed to do.

We've already had this conversation. You're wrong, I've explained why. I'm not doing it again. You disagree, fine. Keep up your the tank was bad crusade. 

I just love how some need to feel right on this. It eats at you to finally get that vindication. It's not coming from me ever. The tank brought us eichel the rebuild failed. If the rebuild is part of the tank it brought us Dahlin too soooooo extra win. 

Edited October 1, 2019 by LGR4GM

[That Aud Smell]

12 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

In any case, the tank did not deliver ... a "generational" player

Paging Mr. Dahlin. Paging Mr. Dahlin. Mr. Dahlin to the nearest blue and gold courtesy phone, please.

[darksabre]

I think LGR and freeman are both half-right.

My feeling about the tank is that it was a good idea executed with the worst foundation in place. Tanking a year to try to get a good player is no big deal but you have to have some things in place first, like a good farm system with a handful of developed players ready to make the jump. And you have to keep some of your good team vets around.

The Sabres started their tank with no farm and got rid of too many vets. They tanked about 3 years too early and this has been the result. Meanwhile, a team like Toronto has recovered much quicker by doing exactly the things the Sabres failed to do. Pittsburgh is another team that executed a tank correctly.

It's totally doable. The Sabres just screwed it up in every possible way.

 

[thewookie1]

12 minutes ago, darksabre said:

I think LGR and freeman are both half-right.

My feeling about the tank is that it was a good idea executed with the worst foundation in place. Tanking a year to try to get a good player is no big deal but you have to have some things in place first, like a good farm system with a handful of developed players ready to make the jump. And you have to keep some of your good team vets around.

The Sabres started their tank with no farm and got rid of too many vets. They tanked about 3 years too early and this has been the result. Meanwhile, a team like Toronto has recovered much quicker by doing exactly the things the Sabres failed to do. Pittsburgh is another team that executed a tank correctly.

It's totally doable. The Sabres just screwed it up in every possible way.

 

 

We also we extremely unlucky in terms of our early pseudo-tank years. If we fell while still having Vanek or Pommers we’d be better off now as we’d of had a few old guard to bring the new guys in. Murray/Regier gutted us to the bone and left no rock unturned. One thing Chicago, Toronto, and Pittsburgh had were a handful of old players who had played in the franchise in and through the tank. They were the rope bridge that connected past teams with the present incarnation. We had absolutely nothing in terms of long term players who we kept around. So we swung across the “chasm” but forgot to tie the other side of the bridge. Now we are stuck as this amorphous franchise with no identity. I do think Pommers returning helped. Hopefully we will regain an identity 

[LGR4GM]

29 minutes ago, darksabre said:

I think LGR and freeman are both half-right.

My feeling about the tank is that it was a good idea executed with the worst foundation in place. Tanking a year to try to get a good player is no big deal but you have to have some things in place first, like a good farm system with a handful of developed players ready to make the jump. And you have to keep some of your good team vets around.

The Sabres started their tank with no farm and got rid of too many vets. They tanked about 3 years too early and this has been the result. Meanwhile, a team like Toronto has recovered much quicker by doing exactly the things the Sabres failed to do. Pittsburgh is another team that executed a tank correctly.

It's totally doable. The Sabres just screwed it up in every possible way.

 

This is fair

[Thorny]

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

It just seems so common sensical, doesn’t it?

i posted a couple days ago about how “practice Vlad” has fooled three consecutive coaches.

Evan seems to be the flip side of that. Three consecutive coaches have marginalized him only to eventually realize their mistake once the real bullets start flying, even if it was too late.

If only there was some sort of, I don’t know, some position responsible for overseeing and managing the entire roster in a “general” sense, ya know? Someone who’s been here for a few years and a couple of those coaches who has a broader experience with the player in question who might be able to prevent all that fooling. 

[Thorny]

3 hours ago, nfreeman said:

Well, I think decisions about lower-order items like Sobotka's playing time (14 min per game last year) vs ERod or whoever else might've replaced Sobotka played a small role in their suckitude, but were dwarfed by much more important factors like coaching, goaltending, lousy franchise-wide talent level, tank hangover, etc.

 

I think the bolded needs to include the concept of "relative to the alternatives."  Playing Sobotka over ERod isn't like playing him over Mike Bossy.

 

 

I'm nowhere near as optimistic as @darksabre about them having a good October, but I am pretty confident that if they have a lousy October, it won't be due to Sobotka playing over ERod.

But it’s not just about playing Sobotka over Rodrigues, it’s much more about WHERE Sobotka is in the lineup. 

If Sobotka has to be in for Rodrigues, it still should be someone like Sheary playing on line 2.

Edited October 1, 2019 by Thorny

[Thorny]

2 hours ago, Taro T said:

Perhaps not.  But it is a very easily avoidable hurdle that has been added to their list of items to overcome.

I disagree with the idea it won’t be a top 5 problem. They are actively sabotaging what’s supposed to be our secondary scoring line 

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

While I agree that Krueger thought Sobotka was better the ERod in camp, the difference must have been far greater than what was evident to me to overcome the obvious difference in last season’s performances.

Thompson was better than Skinner too, or if you want less extreme, Asplund outplayed Mittelstadt.

Ralph himself said resumes count for something.

I'm glad someone else noticed this. I don't understand why they send Thompson down (who looked better than last year in preseason) and kept Mitts up (who looked worse than last year). It would have made far more sense to me (development wise) to send them both down together with bringing them both up together next year. Let them bond and develop potential future chemistry as they could in time be complimentary pieces. Let them be the Rochester leaders.

Leaving Asplund up, playing him with Johanson takes care of that right side is a mess thing mentioned earlier and also bumps Vlad down the roster which would lower the blood pressure of all the Vlad haters. 

I think it's safe to say Kreuger is not basing anything on last year and was going with what he saw and what he judged getting to know people. I don't think it's an issue of Vlad is Better than E-Rod but E-Rod can't score and adds very little threat to any top line. He's a decent utility guy for injuries, but if he's your great hope you're playing for a high draft pick. 

Will this Sobodka thing work, I don't see how it can, but I do see the value in TRYING to blend different types of players together into combinations that might fit or have chemistry. maybe Johanson and Sobodka are great friends and he sees some sort of symbiosis developing. maybe there's still a trade for a RW or 2C in the works and he's a placeholder? I dunno, I'm going to give them the benefit of a doubt until it proves wrong.

Trying to be anything like last year though would be the wrong approach.

[Derrico]

My two thoughts?  We are one friggen RW away from having a decent forward group.  Not top 10 in the league but not bottom 10 either.  I'm still holding out hope we can atleast bring a good RW in (I know we all want centre).  Put a good RW in that second line and all of a sudden alot of things make sense.  Man it makes too much sense trading Risto, just need that partner.

Also, we have several regulars on D injured to start the season.  But holy this is some depth to still field that top 6 AND still sending Borgan down.  All this Vlad talk, I do want to point out this is the best Defense all around Buffalo has had in atleast 10 years.  Probably much longer.

[triumph_communes]

The tank only failed because Murray spent all the teams capital on busts and bad egos

 

At least Botterill is going to get Vesey with that 3rd round pick 

Edited October 1, 2019 by triumph_communes

[Randall Flagg]

5 hours ago, nfreeman said:

Negative.

The most obvious one -- and the stupidest, and the most destructive, on several orders of magnitude -- rhymes with "skank."

Moreover, there have been many other moves this decade that were materially worse than starting this season with Sobotka as #2 RW, including, just off the top of my head:

- Keeping Darcy

- Leino

- Rolston

- Trading a #1 for Lehner

- Trading McNabb and 2 second-rounders for Fasching

- Nylander

- Grigorenko

- Trading ROR for a pupu platter

- Relying on Mitts last year

- Relying on Hutton/Ullmark last year and this year

True and Drunkard and I got a looooooooooooooooooot of push-back last summer for me to buy that the bold was obvious to everyone! ?

And right on, eff the tank

Edited October 1, 2019 by Randall Flagg

[Curt]

5 hours ago, darksabre said:

I'm going to throw this out here and really let people melt down:

One of the reasons Housley was fired was for his misuse of Sobotka the last two seasons compared to how he was used historically prior to coming to Buffalo.

Only had Sobotka in Buffalo for one year, though I agree, it felt like longer at times.

[nfreeman]

4 hours ago, Thorny said:

But it’s not just about playing Sobotka over Rodrigues, it’s much more about WHERE Sobotka is in the lineup. 

If Sobotka has to be in for Rodrigues, it still should be someone like Sheary playing on line 2.

I don't think the spread between Sobotka and Sheary will be even close to an important factor in how well or badly the Sabres do.  Again, it's not like we're playing Sobotka over a good RW.

[Curt]

5 hours ago, darksabre said:

They tanked about 3 years too early and this has been the result.

And 3 years later finished last again and got Dahlin.  Tanked to early and still were tanking when the time was right.  The 2014-15 Buffalo Sabres were just ahead of their time.

[Thorny]

17 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

I don't think the spread between Sobotka and Sheary will be even close to an important factor in how well or badly the Sabres do.  Again, it's not like we're playing Sobotka over a good RW.

It's the same as the difference between a replacement level player, and a good one. Sheary isn't quite "good", but Sobotka is below replacement. I think it matters. 

As @Taro T always says, he is an offensive black hole. Pairing him with your 9 million dollar winger, after getting him to that 9 mil by playing him with Jack all year the year before, seems extremely sub-optimal. Especially considering how Skinner was scoring his goals: off Eichel rebounds. Don't fancy Vlad's shot as a replacement. 

Like, if the answer to why Vladmir Sobotka is playing SECOND LINE RW (on his off-hand, mind you) is that "there's no one much better", that's a vicious indictment in and of itself counter argument be damned. 

Edited October 2, 2019 by Thorny