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Trade:Defenseman Colin Miller to Sabres for Picks


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For perspective, Chuck Fletcher traded a 2nd and 3rd for a 32 yo D Man with one year left on his Deal. Botterill trades a 2nd and 5th for a 26 yo D Man with 3 years left on his contract.

Edited by Brawndo
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6 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Oh wow, that might be the most extreme example of overrating our talent ever. No argument that this makes a bad D better but (as an example) I'd still trade our top 6 D for say Boston's top 6 D in a heartbeat. 

My own feeling is that this likely is the first step towards a Risto trade for a top forward. If that happens, not sure we will be better, but we will definitely be different. 

And this might be the worst example of not comprehending context ever. 

No doubt there are better defenses in the league than the Sabres current iteration and this Sabres D isn't remotely in the conversation of league all time best.  (They aren't even in the top 3 just this year.). But this is (on paper) the best the Sabres have had since that '74-'75 squad and it has the POTENTIAL to be the best SABRES D in forever.  (Thus saying they "MAY" be better than that' 74-'75 D.)

That Sabres D wasn't the best in the league (can think of at least 3 that were better and arguably 5-6 that were better) that year and didn't even have a true #1, though Schoenfeld was a solid #2.

And that '05-'06 was not good early in that season.  They jelled as the year went on and Tallinder grew from a 4/5 into a #1 by the time he broke his arm.

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5 hours ago, nucci said:

Our D is not that good...until you show me a Bill Hajt or Mike Ramsey I'm not convinced. We have a lot of average players right now.

As stated in the response to PerreaultForever, didn't say this D IS better than the '74-'75 D merely that it may be.

And I doubt we'll get a chance to find out if it would be better or not, as I expect at least 1 of these guys (likely Ristolainen) gets traded away this off-season.

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2 hours ago, Derrico said:

Really that is all that matters hahahhaah

I’ve read more than a few ‘Dubas is a moron for not making this trade’ type posts since it went down.

For example: https://mobile.twitter.com/TSNBobMcKenzie/status/1144726373778558976

apologies for those on desktop computer if this link doesn’t work (maybe just remove where it says mobile...?

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35 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

For perspective, Chuck Fletcher traded a 2nd and 3rd for a 32 yo D Man with one year left on his Deal. Botterill trades a 2nd and 5th for a 26 yo D Man with 3 years left on his contract.

Not to mention that the Dman Botterill acquired is a better player. 

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15 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

I mean, it's not rock hard evidence, but it's over 200 minutes, not ~50 or something. We regularly make decisions and opinions about, say, which prospects we want up and where, with far less to go off of than 230 NHL minutes at even strength. And I'm not trying to dissuade a Risto trade, I'm just presuming with that lineup that he's here. If he's here, he needs to be with the guy who, outside of the late season dreck that killed everybody and made even our best players look awful, has been able to help him more than anyone else in his career, and who isn't as good away from him either. 

Jason is still more than welcome to use Ristolainen to get a 2C. 

200 minutes is about what Nylander has played. It's not nothing, but it's close. I bet you could find a random 200 minute stretch elsewhere in Risto's career where both eyes and metrics say he played well. 

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9 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

200 minutes is about what Nylander has played. It's not nothing, but it's close. I bet you could find a random 200 minute stretch elsewhere in Risto's career where both eyes and metrics say he played well. 

I'm quite comfortable making a lot of claims based on Nylander's minutes. For example - he should have been up over Tage at least for large stretches of time. 

It'd be one thing if it didn't make sense that Pilut and Risto do well together....but Risto can't move the puck, it's all Pilut's good at. Pilut can't handle physical play, while Risto can move mountains. It worked because Risto didn't even bother trying to move the puck, and Pilut wasn't the focus of an overwhelming forecheck - he made himself the outlet for Risto and got the puck out from there. When I say they LOOK amazing in addition to all of their metrics being good, this is what I mean. They look like a smoothly-functioning NHL machine back there. That's not an accident, and I don't believe it's a fluke just because we know over larger sample sizes that by themselves they're good at those things. 

If Risto stays here, I don't see how you could possibly want him to play with anyone else.

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1 minute ago, Randall Flagg said:

I'm quite comfortable making a lot of claims based on Nylander's minutes. For example - he should have been up over Tage at least for large stretches of time. 

It'd be one thing if it didn't make sense that Pilut and Risto do well together....but Risto can't move the puck, it's all Pilut's good at. Pilut can't handle physical play, while Risto can move mountains. It worked because Risto didn't even bother trying to move the puck, and Pilut wasn't the focus of an overwhelming forecheck - he made himself the outlet for Risto and got the puck out from there. When I say they LOOK amazing in addition to all of their metrics being good, this is what I mean. They look like a smoothly-functioning NHL machine back there. That's not an accident, and I don't believe it's a fluke just because we know over larger sample sizes that by themselves they're good at those things. 

If Risto stays here, I don't see how you could possibly want him to play with anyone else.

I trust your eye and I don't have any issue with them playing together if Risto stays, but I'd have a major problem if part of the reason for not making a move is that stretch of hockey. Pilut is injured to start the season, and there's absolutely no guarantee Krueger sees what you saw or values Pilut enough at all to pair him with Risto. There's a lot of "ifs" in the keeping him scenario. 

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2 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

I trust your eye and I don't have any issue with them playing together if Risto stays, but I'd have a major problem if part of the reason for not making a move is that stretch of hockey. Pilut is injured to start the season, and there's absolutely no guarantee Krueger sees what you saw or values Pilut enough at all to pair him with Risto. There's a lot of "ifs" in the keeping him scenario. 

I think that's why our discourse feels like a debate - I'm fine with moving Risto (not for Miller!) but am purely talking under the assumption that the current roster is what we'll see in October, and what I'd do with that. I'll adjust accordingly when moves are made.

Right now the other options are 
Dahlin - Risto (Yuck!)
Scandella - Risto (YUCK!!!)
McCabe - Risto (not as yuck, but still a far lower ceiling than 24-55)

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From the Athletic -- some positives but also some negatives  https://theathletic.com/1053632/2019/06/28/roundtable-reaction-what-do-the-sabres-get-in-acquiring-defenseman-colin-miller/:

Quote

 

Miller played mostly on Vegas’ third pairing with Jon Merrill but also played a lot a 5-on-5 with Brayden McNabb. Miller had 29 points (three goals-26 assists) in 65 games last season after he put 41 points, including 10 goals, during the Golden Knights’ inaugural season. He missed 17 games last season, some with an upper-body injury and others as a healthy scratch late in the season. He was also scratched in Game 1 of the playoffs against San Jose.

He has three years left on his contract with a $3.875 million cap hit.

Miller, 26, is mobile and has a big shot. In 2015, he won the AHL fastest skater and hardest shot competitions at the All-Star Game in Utica. That big shot has come in handy on Vegas’ power play with seven of his 13 career goals with Vegas coming on the man advantage. According to NaturalStatTrick.com, he’s been a possession monster at 5-on-5 in his career with Vegas and Boston with a 56.1 Corsi.

 

 

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Just now, Randall Flagg said:

I think that's why our discourse feels like a debate - I'm fine with moving Risto (not for Miller!) but am purely talking under the assumption that the current roster is what we'll see in October, and what I'd do with that. I'll adjust accordingly when moves are made.

Right now the other options are 
Dahlin - Risto (Yuck!)
Scandella - Risto (YUCK!!!)
McCabe - Risto (not as yuck, but still a far lower ceiling than 24-55)

And I'm not even remotely confident in Krueger picking the 1 combination out of 4 that might work. Part of why I'm so gung-ho about trading Risto is to prevent coaches from being their own worst enemy.

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21 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

200 minutes is about what Nylander has played. It's not nothing, but it's close. I bet you could find a random 200 minute stretch elsewhere in Risto's career where both eyes and metrics say he played well. 

Go to Stat Trick and Look at the game splits for Pilut and Ristolainen.    They made hay against the absolute worst teams in the NHL.  NJD three times.  One outlier with an incredible split against Washington (and oh by the way - we lost that game).  Also a number of games where they played 1 or 2 shift together. 

Statistical anomaly is appropriate here.  

 

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9 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

 And I'm not even remotely confident in Krueger picking the 1 combination out of 4 that might work. Part of why I'm so gung-ho about trading Risto is to prevent coaches from being their own worst enemy.

But True... THIS coach has got it. Listen to his interviews!! It's not like the CRUMMY coach we had LAST time.

bookmarking this so I can copypaste it in two years again

5 minutes ago, Broken Ankles said:

Go to Stat Trick and Look at the game splits for Pilut and Ristolainen.    They made hay against the absolute worst teams in the NHL.  NJD three times.  One outlier with an incredible split against Washington (and oh by the way - we lost that game).  Also a number of games where they played 1 or 2 shift together. 

Statistical anomaly is appropriate here.  

 

They each had the best game of their career against the Toronto Maple Leafs as well

 

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Just now, That Aud Smell said:

I heard Suban fetched a modest return.

Risto will yield more because ________?

... he doesn't have a $9MM cap hit and there are GMs that think THEIR coach will use him right/ fix him.

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1 minute ago, That Aud Smell said:

I heard Suban fetched a modest return.

Risto will yield more because ________?

 

Just now, TrueBlueGED said:

He's younger with a 40% lower cap hit. 

And JBots is not under pressure to move money off the cap right now so he can sign Duchense to an almost certainly instantly regrettable contract this week... Or at least, if he is he should be... FIRED IMMEDIATELY.

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15 minutes ago, Sabel79 said:

 

And JBots is not under pressure to move money off the cap right now so he can sign Duchense to an almost certainly instantly regrettable contract this week... Or at least, if he is he should be... FIRED IMMEDIATELY.

Damn straight.

 

Also, it should be made clear. If he DOESN'T sign Duchense, then he must be fired immediately.

Edited by Ho-Chi-Sock
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