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Scott Cullen retweeted this take about old time hockey

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 I find myself not disagreeing with this one bit. He continues on for several more tweets after this. 

 

 

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FWIW, one of those expansion teams was never known for goons. Odd choice of words — don't you always want grit and sandpaper, til the end of hockey days?

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Goonery, grit, the-physical-game all evolved into the sport for a reason.  I think Cullen's argument is fine, but what is he saying about the NHL now?  It's as equally diluted now as it was then, perhaps even more so.  Anyway, in a battle, or "battle", you don't gain the upper hand by reading poems to your opponent, or tickling them, you gain the upper hand by exerting force when the means to execute a movement-only strategy are limited.

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8 minutes ago, ... said:

Goonery, grit, the-physical-game all evolved into the sport for a reason.  I think Cullen's argument is fine, but what is he saying about the NHL now?  It's as equally diluted now as it was then, perhaps even more so.  Anyway, in a battle, or "battle", you don't gain the upper hand by reading poems to your opponent, or tickling them, you gain the upper hand by exerting force when the means to execute a movement-only strategy are limited.

I don't think I agree with that sentiment.  The expansion of the game globally has produced a larger and more disperse talent pool from which to pull players. The European game was barely a thing.  We only think guys on the ice are less talented because some of the players that play now are insanely talented and perhaps even more so than some of the best players back then.

Those top stars, in today's culture, might have proven to be just as good.  We won't know.  However, I do feel confident thinking that the talent levels in the NHL, and really the game overall, are much higher than they were back then.

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4 hours ago, SDS said:

 I find myself not disagreeing with this one bit. He continues on for several more tweets after this. 

 

 

There are too many teams for the available talent now, too, but they're not gooning it up.

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2 hours ago, ... said:

Goonery, grit, the-physical-game all evolved into the sport for a reason.  I think Cullen's argument is fine, but what is he saying about the NHL now?  It's as equally diluted now as it was then, perhaps even more so.  Anyway, in a battle, or "battle", you don't gain the upper hand by reading poems to your opponent, or tickling them, you gain the upper hand by exerting force when the means to execute a movement-only strategy are limited.

If the game can evolve to that gooner and grit as you suggest, doesn't that imply that it can also evolve beyond it?  Evolution doesn't have an endpoint.  That's not to say the game should/would evolve that stuff out of the picture, but there's definitely more to be had in addition to it.

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20 minutes ago, shrader said:

If the game can evolve to that gooner and grit as you suggest, doesn't that imply that it can also evolve beyond it?  Evolution doesn't have an endpoint.  That's not to say the game should/would evolve that stuff out of the picture, but there's definitely more to be had in addition to it.

I think it already has evolved beyond it.  My position with Cullen's post is that it combines goonery with grit and sandpaper equally.  The latter two elements are essential to the game - "moving beyond" those elements is impossible without altering the game's fundamental nature.  Goonery technically doesn't need to occur, but it will happen from time to time because it's people playing a physical and inherently violent game.  No one wants to see a bunch of goons doing what goons do, but you have to accept it will happen and unless it's completely legislated out of the game, coaches will still keep that tool in their tool kit.  

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1 minute ago, ... said:

I think it already has evolved beyond it.  My position with Cullen's post is that it combines goonery with grit and sandpaper equally.  The latter two elements are essential to the game - "moving beyond" those elements is impossible without altering the game's fundamental nature.  Goonery technically doesn't need to occur, but it will happen from time to time because it's people playing a physical and inherently violent game.  No one wants tp see a bunch of goons doing what goons do, but you have to accept it will happen and unless it's completely legislated out of the game, coaches will still keep that tool in their tool kit.  

I'm good with all of this, but keep in mind that he's talking about the people who want to goonery in the game.  Lumping the three together is a bit more of a cliche as opposed to actually equating them.

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I don't want *Slap Shot*.

 

But grit and nastiness are part of the game.

It's totally out side the realm of a goon game. Lumping them in a tweet is a strawman starter conversation.

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2 hours ago, woods-racer said:

Who wants to watch hockey ballet?

 

Is that the other ballet out of Canada?

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2 hours ago, woods-racer said:

Who wants to watch hockey ballet?

 

 

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2 hours ago, woods-racer said:

Who wants to watch hockey ballet?

 

I do like to watch Skinny skate.  That's pretty close.

Freddie used to say that his role in Queen was to bring ballet to the masses (only half jokingly).  I think he pretty much succeeded, so why not hockey ballet?

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The fact of the matter is that most regular season NHL games these days have as much intensity and competitive fire as a typical pre-season exhibition match in any sport you care to name.

The total lack of "goonery" for lack of a better term is mostly why.

The game has never been more sanitized or more boring to watch, even if the average player has never had as much individual "talent".

 

 

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2 hours ago, woods-racer said:

I don't want *Slap Shot*.

 

But grit and nastiness are part of the game.

It's totally out side the realm of a goon game. Lumping them in a tweet is a strawman starter conversation.

I agree with your take.  These are two separate conversations.  Overall toughness in the game vs goons or fighters.  

I do think toughness has been replaced with clutching and grabbing.  

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There were some pretty violent episodes in the pre expansion NHL, the  Ace Bailey injury comes to mind as one example.

Expansion has always diluted the talent, old timers still talk about the quality of the original six league. There were some good players buried in the minors or who stayed home to play Senior hockey and work for a living. Teams only had one goalie so there were only 6 jobs.

The Flyers won with a brand of intimidating hockey. The rest of the league tried to catch up in the arms race (copycat league) or at least have some deterrent.

There are more people playing the game than before so the talent is available. The game would be amazing if there were only six teams now, similar to a World Cup caliber. Teams would have more than 1 or 2 stars.

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2 hours ago, Eleven said:

 

Imagine John Scott with Dion Phaneuf doing that or Rob Ray with Ty Domi.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, 7+6=13 said:

I agree with your take.  These are two separate conversations.  Overall toughness in the game vs goons or fighters.  

I do think toughness has been replaced with clutching and grabbing.  

We can even have a thread on goon vs. fighter.

There are those that when asked will drop the gloves that are good hockey players. E Kane comes to mind. Would I consider him a goon? Heck no.

 

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2 hours ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

I do like to watch Skinny skate.  That's pretty close.

Freddie used to say that his role in Queen was to bring ballet to the masses (only half jokingly).  I think he pretty much succeeded, so why not hockey ballet?

Jeff goes to the scrum areas and in front of the net, where ever it takes to get a shot.

He may skate well doing it, but I'd take a team full of his type of ballerinas!

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Need some cicerellis, ernes and packetts too.

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I don't know enough about hockey in the early years to say, but it seems to me the Gordie Howe hat trick was a big thing in the 60's before expansion so I think it's BS. And didn't Terrible Ted Green get whacked over the head in the 60s too?  It's true a lot of less skilled tough guys had AHL rather than NHL careers in those years (like Don Cherry) but the hockey didn't really change until the Europeans started coming over.

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19 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I don't know enough about hockey in the early years to say, but it seems to me the Gordie Howe hat trick was a big thing in the 60's before expansion so I think it's BS. And didn't Terrible Ted Green get whacked over the head in the 60s too?  It's true a lot of less skilled tough guys had AHL rather than NHL careers in those years (like Don Cherry) but the hockey didn't really change until the Europeans started coming over.

 I don't think there was ever a time it was a *gentlemen's game*. Which is the point I believe you are trying to make (?).

The game just seems to ebb and flow in and out of fast and skilled to large and forceful and back again.

I've yet to see or read an interview with a hockey player from any era that has said they had it so much easier than the current generation playing at the time the interview was given.

Edited by woods-racer

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21 hours ago, woods-racer said:

Jeff goes to the scrum areas and in front of the net, where ever it takes to get a shot.

He may skate well doing it, but I'd take a team full of his type of ballerinas!

Absolutely, and I wasn't knocking on him, I was looking at our teams potential to win the cup because of him.

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