Leafs rebuild vs Sabres rebuild: Which will be better sooner and which will be better longer?

[TrueBlueGED]

I'd say they're more Cubs than Pats given the history and fan base

 

Yea, but the Cubs are likable. No team with Kadri has a particularly high likability factor.

[bunomatic]

Someone in that organization sold their soul

[nfreeman]

They check all the boxes. A management group and coach seemingly a half step ahead on cap and asset management, a star-laden foundation, and tremendous luck. Seriously, since Shanahan took over and assembled that group, have they whiffed on anything? It's one hit after another.

What is the support for the assertion on asset and cap management?

[TrueBlueGED]

What is the support for the assertion on asset and cap management?

 

-They were able to dump Phaneuf and Clarkson without retaining any salary.

 

-All of their bad contracts come off the books after this season (save for Horton and Lupul, who are perma-LTIR'd) while they had plenty of space to absorb them thanks to ELCs. Our bad contracts extend beyond the young ELCs.

 

-Kadri is signed long term well under market value for what he brings at $4.5M. 

 

-Gardiner, similarly, is well under market price at $4M.

 

-They haven't expended any big trade chips to bring in talent.

 

-They were willing (or smart enough) to bury underperforming vets like Michalek, Greening, and Laich in the minors in favor of the kids.

 

Basically they have value in several spots and have shrewdly taken advantage of opportunities to get out of bad situations (Phaneuf and Clarkson). Some of that was luck (such as Kadri scoring 30 the year after he signs long term), but not all of it. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

There is one bright spot in this failed year and that is another top 10 pick and another high 2nd rd pick. These two players could make a huge difference in the long-term success of the rebuild and could help us match Tor's depth long-term.

-They were able to dump Phaneuf and Clarkson without retaining any salary.

 

-All of their bad contracts come off the books after this season (save for Horton and Lupul, who are perma-LTIR'd) while they had plenty of space to absorb them thanks to ELCs. Our bad contracts extend beyond the young ELCs.

 

-Kadri is signed long term well under market value for what he brings at $4.5M. 

 

-Gardiner, similarly, is well under market price at $4M.

 

-They haven't expended any big trade chips to bring in talent.

 

-They were willing (or smart enough) to bury underperforming vets like Michalek, Greening, and Laich in the minors in favor of the kids.

 

Basically they have value in several spots and have shrewdly taken advantage of opportunities to get out of bad situations (Phaneuf and Clarkson). Some of that was luck (such as Kadri scoring 30 the year after he signs long term), but not all of it.

 

Well said.

[Scottysabres]

I'm just gonna say it: I think the Leafs have potential to be the NHL's Patriots.

I need Dudacek to show up and tell me again how they're going to face adversity.

They are going to face adversity. And let me give you a Sabers example.

 

Back in the 73/74 season the Sabers had formed one of the most formidable lines in NHL history. The French Connection.

Martin, Robert and Perrault terrorized competition.

But.........

Chicks dig scars, glory is fleeting and nothing, NOTHING, lasts forever.

 

Toronto is good, this to shall pass.

 

The Sabers need to get their shot together.

[Jacque Richard]

They are going to face adversity. And let me give you a Sabers example.

Back in the 73/74 season the Sabers had formed one of the most formidable lines in NHL history. The French Connection.

Martin, Robert and Perrault terrorized competition.

But.........

Chicks dig scars, glory is fleeting and nothing, NOTHING, lasts forever.

Toronto is good, this to shall pass.

The Sabers need to get their shot together.

You mean Sabres!

[TrueBlueGED]

They are going to face adversity. And let me give you a Sabers example.

 

Back in the 73/74 season the Sabers had formed one of the most formidable lines in NHL history. The French Connection.

Martin, Robert and Perrault terrorized competition.

But.........

Chicks dig scars, glory is fleeting and nothing, NOTHING, lasts forever.

 

Toronto is good, this to shall pass.

 

The Sabers need to get their shot together.

There's a reason I used the Pats: some things, seemingly, DO last forever.

[Brawndo]

One other difference. The Sabres actually beat the Leafs once in a while

[dudacek]

Mitch Marner is dating Kate Upton.

Babcock has spy cams in Trotz's office.

And Matthews was seen de-icing pucks in the bowels of the ACC.

 

In other news, Nazem Kadri was recently seen hanging with Carlos Ortiz.

[nfreeman]

-They were able to dump Phaneuf and Clarkson without retaining any salary.

 

-All of their bad contracts come off the books after this season (save for Horton and Lupul, who are perma-LTIR'd) while they had plenty of space to absorb them thanks to ELCs. Our bad contracts extend beyond the young ELCs.

 

-Kadri is signed long term well under market value for what he brings at $4.5M. 

 

-Gardiner, similarly, is well under market price at $4M.

 

-They haven't expended any big trade chips to bring in talent.

 

-They were willing (or smart enough) to bury underperforming vets like Michalek, Greening, and Laich in the minors in favor of the kids.

 

Basically they have value in several spots and have shrewdly taken advantage of opportunities to get out of bad situations (Phaneuf and Clarkson). Some of that was luck (such as Kadri scoring 30 the year after he signs long term), but not all of it. 

 

Good breakdown.  I'd quibble a bit -- the Clarkson trade was under the prior regime, they gave their goalie a fat 5-year contract, the LTIR for Lupul is pretty questionable and they are eating $8.6MM in cap hit for the guys in the minors -- but many of your points are valid.

 

However, I think their cap management has benefited greatly from simply having a bunch of really good players on their ELCs.  Their 3 best forwards -- one superstar, one star and one maybe-star -- are all dirt cheap.  They also haven't yet had to bite the bullet and decide whether to give a decent but not great homegrown player a fat extension (although if those are Sweet Lou's decisions, he'll probably continue to be ruthless about it and generally make the right calls).

 

We'll see.  This story is far from written.  Certainly the Leafs are ahead now though.

[PASabreFan]

The money shot: Lou high-fiving Shanny after the OT goal. Ours: Murray with a mug standing by himself in the bad cologne aftermath of Joe Battista.

[WildCard]

Here's Jeremy White losing his mind on the Leafs vs Sabres

 

http://d3efjls8gnbg8i.cloudfront.net/1642018/119064821.mp3?rhihttphost=wgr550.hosted.cx

[Randall Flagg]

 

Here's what our boys are doing

 

Is that McGinn?

[WildCard]

Definitely McGinn. Surprised Eichel isn't there then, him and McGinn were close

 

Ennis with the bucket hat is a solid look though. Bringing it back

 

O'Reilly, shave your damn beard you caveman 

Edited April 18, 2017 by WildCard

[darksabre]

Definitely McGinn. Surprised Eichel isn't there then, him and McGinn were close

 

Ennis with the bucket hat is a solid look though. Bringing it back

 

O'Reilly, shave your damn beard you ###### caveman 

That ain't a bucket hat. Give me your "90's cred" card. 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Definitely McGinn. Surprised Eichel isn't there then, him and McGinn were close

 

Ennis with the bucket hat is a solid look though. Bringing it back

 

O'Reilly, shave your damn beard you ###### caveman 

 

Are you sure?  Looks like Robin to me.

[SwampD]

Here's Jeremy White losing his mind on the Leafs vs Sabres

 

http://d3efjls8gnbg8i.cloudfront.net/1642018/119064821.mp3?rhihttphost=wgr550.hosted.cx

It was actually pretty funny. I found number five to be the most interesting (telling) and why you can't really compare the two rebuilds. We were sooooooooo much deeper in the hole to start out.

[WildCard]

That ain't a bucket hat. Give me your "90's cred" card. 

Hmmm you're right. TBF I'm definitely not a 90's kid though, barely remember them (born 93')

 

Are you sure?  Looks like Robin to me.

Na that's 100% McGinn

It was actually pretty funny. I found number five to be the most interesting (telling) and why you can't really compare the two rebuilds. We were sooooooooo much deeper in the hole to start out.

#7/8, whichever one was him saying Anti-Tankers all shut up in Toronto now, was my personal favorite

[SwampD]

Hmmm you're right. TBF I'm definitely not a 90's kid though, barely remember them (born 93')

 

Na that's 100% McGinn

#7/8, whichever one was him saying Anti-Tankers all shut up in Toronto now, was my personal favorite

I guess I don't have to shut up, then.  :nana:

 

 

Really wish I did. Hopefully next year.

[WildCard]

This Leafs rant is truly depressing. Now I see why you went full Pats => Leafs, True.

[TrueBlueGED]

Good breakdown. I'd quibble a bit -- the Clarkson trade was under the prior regime, they gave their goalie a fat 5-year contract, the LTIR for Lupul is pretty questionable and they are eating $8.6MM in cap hit for the guys in the minors -- but many of your points are valid.

 

However, I think their cap management has benefited greatly from simply having a bunch of really good players on their ELCs. Their 3 best forwards -- one superstar, one star and one maybe-star -- are all dirt cheap. They also haven't yet had to bite the bullet and decide whether to give a decent but not great homegrown player a fat extension (although if those are Sweet Lou's decisions, he'll probably continue to be ruthless about it and generally make the right calls).

 

We'll see. This story is far from written. Certainly the Leafs are ahead now though.

I thought the Clarkson trade happened during Shanahan's first year as pres? I know the rest of the crew wasn't there yet but I thought he was. If not, I retract that point.

 

You honestly think Lupul is ever playing again?

 

The AHLers eating cap space, remains to me, a positive. Two reasons. 1) the Leafs don't need the cap this year, and the deals are off the books after it. They used their ELC grace period effectively to help facilitate other moves. 2) they were smart enough not to get caught in the "well they're making $4 million, so we have to have them here" trap. They recognized the cap hits are a sunk cost, so there's no reason to get hit on the cap and also on the ice with poor play.

[GASabresIUFAN]

I mentioned this earlier, but I think that this draft, assuming we keep our top 3 picks, will help close the talent gap between us the the Leafs.

 

I also wanted to see why such a gap existed. I know partly because GMTM traded away a great of our picks and top prospects, but it also exists because Toronto (and Edm) has sucked longer.

 

Toronto, before this year has made the playoffs just once in 11 years and that was the lockout shorten year. That means they should have a deeper group of higher end prospects as the guys drafted in 2007 & 2008 are currently in their primes. Guys like Kadri and JVR.

Edm is much the same having finally made the playoffs after 10 straight misses.

 

This isn't unusual. Chi made the playoffs once in 11 years prior to building the current team. So far our rebuild, at least in time frame, our rebuild looks like the LA kings who missed the playoffs for 6 straight (over 7 years w the lockout) before improving. It's also not usually for pts totals fluctuate up and down during the process before making the jump to contender.

 

Pittsburgh is the exception. They retooled in 4 seasons over 5 years (lockout) and got lucky by getting 2 generational talents in Malkin and Crosby plus a franchise goalie in Fleury and an NHL ready center in Staal in 4 successive drafts. They truly benefited from the lockout which gave them top odds at Crosby. Had that season been played, who knows if they finish at the bottom and even get Crosby.

 

It time for GMTM to fix the D, bring up the kids and lets see where the chips fall and with a little luck we might be right with Tor by the end of next season.

Edited April 18, 2017 by GASabresFan

[LGR4GM]

I actually think keeping the kids down this year was a good thing. I am well aware of what Rochester looked like and I think that is because so many other kids were already up in Buffalo and Bylsma system SUCKS. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

I actually think keeping the kids down this year was a good thing. I am well aware of what Rochester looked like and I think that is because so many other kids were already up in Buffalo and Bylsma system SUCKS.

 

Here is the problem with the DD and his system suck theory. They didn't play his system this year. They couldn't. The injuries and lack of D talent and depth didn't lend itself to playing the system. We played trap early in the year and pump and chase most of the season. GMTM said so at the presser. He said most of our 5 on 5 offense came from dump and chase and then establishing the cycle in the zone. He also said he didn't give DD adequate depth to overcome the injuries or to play the possession/transition game he wanted. Does that sound like DD's fast break offense?

 

If want to say DD sucks because he didn't communicate well. OK, but the players say they didn't listen as well as they should. If you want to say DD sucks because he worried about gameplaning the opponent vs just playing our game, that is a valid observation. If you want to complain about line combos, I'm right there with you; and if you want to say that you don't think the fast break will work in today's NHL and isn't the system GMTM wants to run, I can accept that as well. However you can't say DD didn't adjust to his talent or that his system was to blame for the O problems, because based on TM's statements, that isn't ture.

Edited April 18, 2017 by GASabresFan