RIP Muhammad Ali

[Taro T]

Perhaps a trilogy between the two. Ali takes 2, Tyson 1. That would be my prediction.

Very possible. Ali was much taller than Tyson and had the physical edge, but Tyson was insane and the 1st punch or 2 he took only encouraged him. Like I've said before, in any particular fight, I'd expect Ali's size & footwork to get him through Tyson's initial barrage. But it would not be a given.

[Thorny]

Very possible. Ali was much taller than Tyson and had the physical edge, but Tyson was insane and the 1st punch or 2 he took only encouraged him. Like I've said before, in any particular fight, I'd expect Ali's size & footwork to get him through Tyson's initial barrage. But it would not be a given.

Agreed. And Ali could also outthink him. Game plan. Before and during the fight. I don't think Tyson is a fool, particularly in ring, but Ali was a ring general.

[Taro T]

Agreed. And Ali could also outthink him. Game plan. Before and during the fight. I don't think Tyson is a fool, particularly in ring, but Ali was a ring general.

Ali absolutely was. But the young Tyson had the best manager I ever saw. Cus D'Amato could've reduced a lot of that intelligence advantage Ali had. And the strategy would've been try to drive Ali to the ropes (he's heading there anyway early) and trap him & then pummel him when you're too close for him to effectively hit back.

 

It might work; but if Ali isn't done in 3 (or less) Tyson doesn't have enough left to resist the counter attack.

[Thorny]

Ali absolutely was. But the young Tyson had the best manager I ever saw. Cus D'Amato could've reduced a lot of that intelligence advantage Ali had. And the strategy would've been try to drive Ali to the ropes (he's heading there anyway early) and trap him & then pummel him when you're too close for him to effectively hit back.

It might work; but if Ali isn't done in 3 (or less) Tyson doesn't have enough left to resist the counter attack.

That seems about right. Ali would be the favourite, rightfully so. But Tyson from what I've seen was so uniquely built and ferocious that he'd certainly have a chance. I'm still going with Ali as for my money he's the greatest athlete I've seen (obviously not live).

 

Obviously I am not old enough to have seen him fight, or Tyson even (in his prime) for that matter. By the time I was watching with sincerely, it was ear-biting Tyson. I don't know much about D'Amato, I'll have to read up on him.

 

I've read and watched and seen everything I've been able to over the years on Ali. Probably my favourite athlete. Impossible to grasp completely the full cultural impact he had, not having lived it, but by the same token one is able to build up a reverence quite quickly when delving into the career and life of a figure of his stature.

[Taro T]

That seems about right. Ali would be the favourite, rightfully so. But Tyson from what I've seen was so uniquely built and ferocious that he'd certainly have a chance. I'm still going with Ali as for my money he's the greatest athlete I've seen (obviously not live).

Obviously I am not old enough to have seen him fight, or Tyson even (in his prime) for that matter. By the time I was watching with sincerely, it was ear-biting Tyson. I don't know much about D'Amato, I'll have to read up on him.

I've read and watched and seen everything I've been able to over the years on Ali. Probably my favourite athlete. Impossible to grasp completely the full cultural impact he had, not having lived it, but by the same token one is able to build up a reverence quite quickly when delving into the career and life of a figure of his stature.

You're a Canuck? (Somehow didn't realize that, not that it matters.)

 

Young enough that I didn't experience his Viet Nam protest. But am old enough to have watched his BIG fights on ABC 1 weekend after they happened. He was a beast/ athlete. Slight tangent, but have often wondered how his career would have been perceived minus Howard Cosell & how big Howard could've been minus Ali. They put each other on the map. (Neo, PA, or someone else can correct if Howard would've been a lock for MNF minus his Ali ties & takes.)

[Thorny]

You're a Canuck? (Somehow didn't realize that, not that it matters.)

Young enough that I didn't experience his Viet Nam protest. But am old enough to have watched his BIG fights on ABC 1 weekend after they happened. He was a beast/ athlete. Slight tangent, but have often wondered how his career would have been perceived minus Howard Cosell & how big Howard could've been minus Ali. They put each other on the map. (Neo, PA, or someone else can correct if Howard would've been a lock for MNF minus his Ali ties & takes.)

Indeed I am.

 

Ya, it seems like there is just enough of a gap in our ages that I missed his fights live completely whereas you got to witness some. Would have been quite the experience and for that I am envious.

 

Realistically, I pretty much completely missed boxing when it was paramount, by the time I was old enough to appreciate it and was starting to watch, it was Tyson/Holyfield and Mike was past his prime. De La Hoya (and I suppose Mayweather) are probably the only two sport transcendent guys that I grew up watching, again only catching the end of Tyson's reign. But those two guys weren't close to Tyson's level. I caught a fair chuck of Holyfield's I suppose.

 

I get why it's not all that big anymore, but for me UFC doesn't do it for me, and I still enjoy boxing both classic bouts and current. But lean towards the classic.

[DirtDart]

Great fighter, and draft dodger......

[Radar]

Great fighter, and draft dodger......

As a veteran I have no disrespect for his standing up for his beliefs in fact I admire his courage in doing so. I served during the Vietnam war and it is with regret that we ever got into that war. Wave your flag if you want.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Radar

[darksabre]

Mohammad Ali is dead.

 

There are times when you have to undertake something knowing you’ll never be successful. This is one of those times.

 

On a planet six billion years old, being born in 1961 or 1981 doesn’t seem like a significant difference. If you were born in the United States, the significance is large. Ali, and what he taught us, is one of the significant differences. In many ways, he was a participant in many of the arenas and fights that brought us so much pain, beauty, redemption and frustration. We know his fights to be boxing matches, his arenas to be 20’ by 20’ “rings”. and his foes to be Liston, Frazier, and Foreman. We know his recognition to be Heavyweight Champion of the World. As large as those people and things were, they were small in the context of Ali. His fights were also justice and humanity. His arena was the world. His recognition included him being the single most recognized human being on the planet for decades.

 

I sometimes think God gave Ali splendid athletic ability knowing that sports and art draw our attention, giving Ali a voice for his truly meaningful mission.

 

I am unable to describe the context of race and class struggle as it existed in the 60s and 70s. You may know it, yourselves, or you may want to know it. If the latter, you’ll have to read, and read, and read. I had the luxury of being alive. I absorbed and witnessed. Ali’s grievances were real. The courage he displayed, and the sacrifices he made to principal, were extraordinary. I’ve often wondered what he’d think of micro-aggressions and safe spaces.

 

Politicians are policy people with the authority of elected representatives and office. Government is an organization that gives infrastructure and common rules for us all. Politicians, at their best, are also leaders who inspire us to greater ends in matters of race and class, freedom and equality. When I think of politicians in this context, I think of Ali as our first black president. I used a small “p”. I get it and I’m not diminishing the joy I feel regarding our first black “P”, President Obama.

 

Ali anointed himself the Greatest of All Time. He dared you to argue. He knew he was making a claim that would create debate, on merit, with regard to a sport with many greats spanning many eras. He also knew he’d create another debate with that claim. He lived in a world were many weren’t ready for a black man to be brash, loud, confident, and unafraid. He was UNAFRAID! Imagine that in a world where large portions of the population successfully relied on blacks to be afraid and invested evil energy making sure they were.

 

All human beings are complicated. The scale of Ali’s participation in the world magnified his complications. Ali preached love and respect for human beings (“I ain’t got no quarrel with no Vietcong”), faced jail, and surrendered his heavyweight title for the principals of justice and racial equality. He also belittled and emotionally tortured Joe Frazier with racial and intellectual taunts. He bullied Frazier in an arena where Frazier was less equipped to compete. He bullied Frazier in an arena Frazier didn’t ask to enter. I’ll never understand this episode. Ali was complicated.

 

Ali fought Sonny Liston and George Foreman. People who knew boxing thought he was legitimately at risk of serious injury. The Thrilla in Manilla and the Rumble in the Jungle are confrontations of speed, power, strategy, perseverance and courage. Watch them. Human drama in sport at its highest level. The Thrilla in Manilla was epic. I use epic as it was intended to be used. Epic sporting events: The Miracle on Ice, Secretariat at the Belmont, The Thrilla in Manilla. I have no more.

 

Mohammad Ali was beautiful. Power, speed and courage. Watch his hands in fight video. For years, his legs gave him a platform that put him in a position to launch hand assaults while at the same time being impossible to chase down. Later, his brain gave him the ability to hide in plain sight until opportunity gave him the same opportunity to launch those same hands.

 

Movie: Facing Ali. Must see.

 

Books: King of the World (David Remnick); The Fight (Norman Mailer) - I’m grateful, Eleven, for this recommendation.

 

"I am America. I am the part you won’t recognize. But get used to me. Black, confident, cocky. My name, not yours. My religion, not yours. My goals, my own. Get used to me.”

 

"I shook up the world! I shook up the world! I'm a bad maaaan!"

 

"Rumble, young man, rumble ….. Yeaaaaah"

 

Mohammad Ali is dead. Mohammad Ali will never die.

Thank you for this. Ali is one of those figures who's importance I understand, but I don't know very well. I have some books to buy.

[TrueBlueGED]

The Warriors just had a moment of silence for Ali before tipoff tonight. Does anyone else find it odd that a moment of silence is how they chose to honor Ali, of all people? I know it's standard operating procedure, but I dunno, I just don't think it fits here.

[Thorny]

The Warriors just had a moment of silence for Ali before tipoff tonight. Does anyone else find it odd that a moment of silence is how they chose to honor Ali, of all people? I know it's standard operating procedure, but I dunno, I just don't think it fits here.

I get what you're saying. Seems a moment of celebration, for the full life he lived, could be more appropriate.

[dudacek]

Neo, an outstanding epitaph for an outstanding figure.

[Neo]

Some of you have said nice things about my post. Thank you, most sincerely. You know how I value your views.

 

I want to acknowledge DirtDart's post. His sentiment was absent in mine, but it captures another very real aspect of America's visceral reaction to Ali. My union steelworker/bricklayer family felt it. I was raised in a family where racism didn't exist, but the core values of duty, honor, country did. I didn't hear the "n" word, but I did hear "draft dodger". My grandfather, and his brothers and cousins, left their families on December 9, 1941, to board ships and fight in the Pacific. I ate dinner, went to church, and did homework under the supervision of The Greatest Generation, a description they'd never use themselves. They left new wives and young children at home. Imagine Ali in their eyes. I had to ask myself "who's right?". The sixties and seventies were a cultural spasm where disparate people were learning how they fit together.

 

Ali challenged instututions of the heart and mind as organized into society and culture. He was scary because he demanded change while recognizing the personal consequences. Ali was complicated. He touched me as a boy, in my teens, and as a young man. I'm better for it.

Edited January 18, 2019 by Neo

[BMWR100RT]

As a veteran I have no disrespect for his standing up for his beliefs in fact I admire his courage in doing so. I served during the Vietnam war and it is with regret that we ever got into that war. Wave your flag if you want.

This.  I was just reading an article about Vietnam this morning and its horrors. I was born in 61 so I grew up in its shadow but I remember the evening news and the protests and body counts. Thank you for your service anyway.

 

Some of you have said nice things about my post. Thank you, most sincerely. You know how I value your views.

 

I want to acknowledge DirtDart's post. His sentiment was absent in my mine, but it captures another very real aspect of America's visceral reaction to Ali. My union steelworker/bricklayer family felt it. I was raised in a family where racism didn't exist, but the core values of duty, honor, country did. I didn't hear the "n" word, but I did hear "draft dodger". My grandfather, and his brothers and cousins, left their families on December 9, 1941, to board ships and fight in the Pacific. I ate dinner, went to church, and did homework under the supervision of The Greatest Generation, a description they'd never use themselves. They left new wives and young children at home. Imagine Ali in their eyes. I had to ask myself "who's right?". The sixties and seventies were a cultural spasm where disparate people were learning how they fit together.

 

Ali challenged instututions of the heart and mind as organized into society and culture. He was scary because he demanded change while recognizing the personal consequences. Ali was complicated. He touched me as a boy, in my teens, and as a young man. I'm better for it.

And This. The neatest thing is to hear my own father who I had heard use the words "draft dodger" when I was a boy say to me from his nursing home how we had lost a great man in Ali. That is the greatness.

[K-9]

Ali didn't "dodge" anything. He faced up to the consequences of his decision and paid for it. Dearly. In the form of being robbed of his athletic prime. Anyone drafted could have done the same thing if they were willing to pay the legal price. He didn't run away.

[North Buffalo]

Ali didn't "dodge" anything. He faced up to the consequences of his decision and paid for it. Dearly. In the form of being robbed of his athletic prime. Anyone drafted could have done the same thing if they were willing to pay the legal price. He didn't run away.

Agreed, but at the time it wasnt always framed that way. I too born in '64 grew up in Vietnam's shadow. My Dad was an EOD Frogman who left the service in '62 to go to Berkeley for his PHD. My folks despite my Dad's service hated the Vietnam war and literally I grew up in the middle of the first protests where the speakers were suit jackets and ties. Then to Buffalo in '68 where the Police were rioting. Ali was a central figure and symbol of folks upset by the way things were being run and the civil right movement melded with the free speech movement.

 

In Buffalo it hit home with the 45 group of professors arrested on trumped up charged because they were sick of the police picking fights on campus. http://www.buffalo.edu/ubreporter/archive/2010_03_10/flashback, However this story is void of a number of facts. The faculty upon arrest coordinated a strike that shut down the whole NY university system and Nelson Rockefeller had to be called in to pardon the proffesors and kick the police off campus unless a specific crime was committed. The group and teacher strike was organized at our dining room table by retired and honored military service members. At least that is the way I remember it. Ali's statements and example was always a central icon used by these men as motivation. Definitely an incredible figure during interesting time.

Edited June 6, 2016 by North Buffalo

[K-9]

Agreed, but at the time it wasnt always framed that way. I too born in '64 grew up in Vietnam's shadow. My Dad was an EOD Frogman who left the service in '62 to go to Berkeley for his PHD. My folks despite my Dad's service hated the Vietnam war and literally I grew up in the middle of the first protests where the speakers were suit jackets and ties. Then to Buffalo in '68 where the Police were rioting. Ali was a central figure and symbol of folks upset by the way things were being run and the civil right movement melded with the free speech movement.

 

In Buffalo it hit home with the 45 group of professors arrested on trumped up charged because they were sick of the police picking fights on campus. http://www.buffalo.edu/ubreporter/archive/2010_03_10/flashback, However this story is void of a number of facts. The faculty upon arrest coordinated a strike that shut down the whole NY university system and Nelson Rockefeller had to be called in to pardon the proffesors and kick the police off campus unless a specific crime was committed. The group and teacher strike was organized at our dining room table by retired and honored military service members. At least that is the way I remember it. Ali's statements and example was always a central icon used by these men as motivation. Definitely an incredible figure during interesting time.

I appreciate this perspective, thanks for sharing it. Those were interesting times and I can remember the tear gas clouds emanating from the UB campus during the protests. My dad, a WWII vet, was ready to disown my older brother for participating in the protests and threatening to burn his draft card. Other vets, including our neighbors, helped their sons get to Canada to avoid going, such was their opposition to the war in Viet Nam. 

 

Ali took as principled an approach as one could take on the matter and the term "draft dodger" always rankled me given how it didn't apply to him in any context. Dodgers left the country or otherwise became fugitives here, Ali said fine, send me to jail as I'd rather fight this unjust system that had jailed him for 400 years, to paraphrase how he put it. 

 

And we never got to see the best fighter Ali was or could have been as a result. 

[Taro T]

I appreciate this perspective, thanks for sharing it. Those were interesting times and I can remember the tear gas clouds emanating from the UB campus during the protests. My dad, a WWII vet, was ready to disown my older brother for participating in the protests and threatening to burn his draft card. Other vets, including our neighbors, helped their sons get to Canada to avoid going, such was their opposition to the war in Viet Nam. 

 

Ali took as principled an approach as one could take on the matter and the term "draft dodger" always rankled me given how it didn't apply to him in any context. Dodgers left the country or otherwise became fugitives here, Ali said fine, send me to jail as I'd rather fight this unjust system that had jailed him for 400 years, to paraphrase how he put it. 

 

And we never got to see the best fighter Ali was or could have been as a result.

 

We missed seeing him in his physical prime. We do not know that that 25 year old Ali (nor the older one that would have faced Frazier along that arc) was a better fighter than the man that had his resolve hardened in the late '60's.

 

That ordeal might very well have been instrumental in making him the man & Champion that he was. (Yes, I realize he'd already held the title prior to being drafted.)

[Neo]

 

Ali didn't "dodge" anything. He faced up to the consequences of his decision and paid for it. Dearly. In the form of being robbed of his athletic prime. Anyone drafted could have done the same thing if they were willing to pay the legal price. He didn't run away.

Agreed. I judged him sincere in his deeply held beliefs. This judgement came with my maturity. Edited June 6, 2016 by N'eo

[PASabreFan]

The Warriors just had a moment of silence for Ali before tipoff tonight. Does anyone else find it odd that a moment of silence is how they chose to honor Ali, of all people? I know it's standard operating procedure, but I dunno, I just don't think it fits here.

I like this take. I find moments of silence very awkward. I can think of the passing of someone near and dear to our hearts -- I'm not even going to mention his name -- where a moment of silence will be absolutely absurd.

[That Aud Smell]

Thanks for that tribute, N'eo.

 

Ali's place in modern history is something for which I don't yet have a proper appreciation. I plan to remedy that in the wake of his death - mostly by watching some movies, reading some books.

[darksabre]

NPR broadcasting the funeral service while I'm trying to drive home. Made it through Billy Crystal and Bryant Gumbel, but I had to pull over and stop during Bill Clinton. It was too much. Crying like a baby in my car.

Edited June 10, 2016 by d4rksabre

[Eleven]

NPR broadcasting the funeral service while I'm trying to drive home. Made it through Billy Crystal and Bryant Gumbel, but I had to pull over and stop during Bill Clinton. It was too much. Crying like a baby in my car.

 

I had to turn it off during Billy Crystal because it was too much.  Too much BS.