RIP Muhammad Ali

[Hoss]

If a single individual in sports history deserves their own thread after they pass it's Ali. No single sports figure has had a more significant impact in their lifetime.

 

You won't hear "gone too soon" about him because he lived a full life, but there's never a time to lose somebody like Muhammad Ali. Here too late, gone too soon. May the millions you inspired strive for your untouchable legacy.

 

 

 

Edited June 4, 2016 by Hoss

[Neo]

Mohammad Ali is dead.

 

There are times when you have to undertake something knowing you’ll never be successful. This is one of those times.

 

On a planet six billion years old, being born in 1961 or 1981 doesn’t seem like a significant difference. If you were born in the United States, the significance is large. Ali, and what he taught us, is one of the significant differences. In many ways, he was a participant in many of the arenas and fights that brought us so much pain, beauty, redemption and frustration. We know his fights to be boxing matches, his arenas to be 20’ by 20’ “rings”. and his foes to be Liston, Frazier, and Foreman. We know his recognition to be Heavyweight Champion of the World. As large as those people and things were, they were small in the context of Ali. His fights were also justice and humanity. His arena was the world. His recognition included him being the single most recognized human being on the planet for decades.

 

I sometimes think God gave Ali splendid athletic ability knowing that sports and art draw our attention, giving Ali a voice for his truly meaningful mission.

 

I am unable to describe the context of race and class struggle as it existed in the 60s and 70s. You may know it, yourselves, or you may want to know it. If the latter, you’ll have to read, and read, and read. I had the luxury of being alive. I absorbed and witnessed. Ali’s grievances were real. The courage he displayed, and the sacrifices he made to principal, were extraordinary. I’ve often wondered what he’d think of micro-aggressions and safe spaces.

 

Politicians are policy people with the authority of elected representatives and office. Government is an organization that gives infrastructure and common rules for us all. Politicians, at their best, are also leaders who inspire us to greater ends in matters of race and class, freedom and equality. When I think of politicians in this context, I think of Ali as our first black president. I used a small “p”. I get it and I’m not diminishing the joy I feel regarding our first black “P”, President Obama.

 

Ali anointed himself the Greatest of All Time. He dared you to argue. He knew he was making a claim that would create debate, on merit, with regard to a sport with many greats spanning many eras. He also knew he’d create another debate with that claim. He lived in a world were many weren’t ready for a black man to be brash, loud, confident, and unafraid. He was UNAFRAID! Imagine that in a world where large portions of the population successfully relied on blacks to be afraid and invested evil energy making sure they were.

 

All human beings are complicated. The scale of Ali’s participation in the world magnified his complications. Ali preached love and respect for human beings (“I ain’t got no quarrel with no Vietcong”), faced jail, and surrendered his heavyweight title for the principals of justice and racial equality. He also belittled and emotionally tortured Joe Frazier with racial and intellectual taunts. He bullied Frazier in an arena where Frazier was less equipped to compete. He bullied Frazier in an arena Frazier didn’t ask to enter. I’ll never understand this episode. Ali was complicated.

 

Ali fought Sonny Liston and George Foreman. People who knew boxing thought he was legitimately at risk of serious injury. The Thrilla in Manilla and the Rumble in the Jungle are confrontations of speed, power, strategy, perseverance and courage. Watch them. Human drama in sport at its highest level. The Thrilla in Manilla was epic. I use epic as it was intended to be used. Epic sporting events: The Miracle on Ice, Secretariat at the Belmont, The Thrilla in Manilla. I have no more.

 

Mohammad Ali was beautiful. Power, speed and courage. Watch his hands in fight video. For years, his legs gave him a platform that put him in a position to launch hand assaults while at the same time being impossible to chase down. Later, his brain gave him the ability to hide in plain sight until opportunity allowed him to launch those same hands.

 

Movie: Facing Ali. Must see.

 

Books: King of the World (David Remnick); The Fight (Norman Mailer) - I’m grateful, Eleven, for this recommendation.

 

"I am America. I am the part you won’t recognize. But get used to me. Black, confident, cocky. My name, not yours. My religion, not yours. My goals, my own. Get used to me.”

 

"I shook up the world! I shook up the world! I'm a bad maaaan!"

 

"Rumble, young man, rumble ….. Yeaaaaah"

 

Mohammad Ali is dead. Mohammad Ali will never die.

Edited May 5, 2019 by Neo

[Taro T]

Mohammad Ali is dead.

There are times when you have to undertake something knowing you’ll never be successful. This is one of those times.

On a planet six billion years old, being born in 1961 or 1981 doesn’t seem like a significant difference. If you were born in the United States, the significance is large. Ali, and what he taught us, is one of the significant differences. In many ways, he was a participant in many of the arenas and fights that brought us so much pain, beauty, redemption and frustration. We know his fights to be boxing matches, his arenas to be 20’ by 20’ “rings”. and his foes to be Liston, Frazier, and Foreman. We know his recognition to be Heavyweight Champion of the World. As large as those people and things were, they were small in the context of Ali. His fights were also justice and humanity. His arena was the world. His recognition included him being the single most recognized human being on the planet for decades.

I sometimes think God gave Ali splendid athletic ability knowing that sports and art draw our attention, giving Ali a voice for his truly meaningful mission.

I am unable to describe the context of race and class struggle as it existed in the 60s and 70s. You may know it, yourselves, or you may want to know it. If the latter, you’ll have to read, and read, and read. I had the luxury of being alive. I absorbed and witnessed. Ali’s grievances were real. The courage he displayed, and the sacrifices he made to principal, were extraordinary. I’ve often wondered what he’d think of micro-aggressions and safe spaces.

Politicians are policy people with the authority of elected representatives and office. Government is an organization that gives infrastructure and common rules for us all. Politicians, at their best, are also leaders who inspire us to greater ends in matters of race and class, freedom and equality. When I think of politicians in this context, I think of Ali as our first black president. I used a small “p”. I get it and I’m not diminishing the joy I feel regarding our first black “P”, President Obama.

Ali anointed himself the Greatest of All Time. He dared you to argue. He knew he was making a claim that would create debate, on merit, with regard to a sport with many greats spanning many eras. He also knew he’d create another debate with that claim. He lived in a world were many weren’t ready for a black man to be brash, loud, confident, and unafraid. He was UNAFRAID! Imagine that in a world where large portions of the population successfully relied on blacks to be afraid and invested evil energy making sure they were.

All human beings are complicated. The scale of Ali’s participation in the world magnified his complications. Ali preached love and respect for human beings (“I ain’t got no quarrel with no Vietcong”), faced jail, and surrendered his heavyweight title for the principals of justice and racial equality. He also belittled and emotionally tortured Joe Frazier with racial and intellectual taunts. He bullied Frazier in an arena where Frazier was less equipped to compete. He bullied Frazier in an arena Frazier didn’t ask to enter. I’ll never understand this episode. Ali was complicated.

Ali fought Sonny Liston and George Foreman. People who knew boxing thought he was legitimately at risk of serious injury. The Thrilla in Manilla and the Rumble in the Jungle are confrontations of speed, power, strategy, perseverance and courage. Watch them. Human drama in sport at its highest level. The Thrilla in Manilla was epic. I use epic as it was intended to be used. Epic sporting events: The Miracle on Ice, Secretariat at the Belmont, The Thrilla in Manilla. I have no more.

Mohammad Ali was beautiful. Power, speed and courage. Watch his hands in fight video. For years, his legs gave him a platform that put him in a position to launch hand assaults while at the same time being impossible to chase down. Later, his brain gave him the ability to hide in plain sight until opportunity gave him the same opportunity to launch those same hands.

Movie: Facing Ali. Must see.

Books: King of the World (David Remnick); The Fight (Norman Mailer) - I’m grateful, Eleven, for this recommendation.

"I am America. I am the part you won’t recognize. But get used to me. Black, confident, cocky. My name, not yours. My religion, not yours. My goals, my own. Get used to me.”

"I shook up the world! I shook up the world! I'm a bad maaaan!"

"Rumble, young man, rumble ….. Yeaaaaah"

Mohammad Ali is dead. Mohammad Ali will never die.

Extremely well stated. Thank you for that. :beer:

 

Sad that he's gone, but happy that, with all the health issues he's dealt with the last decade or so, he can finally be at peace and doesn't have to fight anymore.

 

RIP

[K-9]

N'eo, that was perhaps the most eloquent post I've ever read in this forum. Thanks.

 

RIP, champ.

[nfreeman]

For those interested, "When We Were Kings," which is a documentary about the Ali-Foreman Rumble in the Jungle, is excellent, and "Ali" with Will Smith was also quite good IMHO.

 

He was really something, both in and out of the ring. I have some issues with some things he did, but he was certainly an inspiration to millions and was the boxing equivalent of Michael Jordan. He would've taken Mike Tyson apart.

[Taro T]

For those interested, "When We Were Kings," which is a documentary about the Ali-Foreman Rumble in the Jungle, is excellent, and "Ali" with Will Smith was also quite good IMHO.

He was really something, both in and out of the ring. I have some issues with some things he did, but he was certainly an inspiration to millions and was the boxing equivalent of Michael Jordan. He would've taken Mike Tyson apart.

The Don King Tyson, absolutely. The Cus D'Amato, probably. Never saw a fighter that could punch & come right out of the corner punching like that version of Tyson. Ali could probably have weathered that 1st 2-3 round storm and then would have destroyed him once he was spent. But I'm not positive he could have weathered those 1st 6-9 minutes. Too bad their primes were ~20 years apart. THAT fight would have been EPIC; a true battle of the most dominant fighters of their respective eras with 2 completely different styles & strategies. Ali's legs would have gotten him through round 1. Could they have kept him away from the devestation Tyson would bring for 5 or so more minutes? Again, probably, but not definitely.

[Eleven]

The Don King Tyson, absolutely. The Cus D'Amato, probably. Never saw a fighter that could punch & come right out of the corner punching like that version of Tyson. Ali could probably have weathered that 1st 2-3 round storm and then would have destroyed him once he was spent. But I'm not positive he could have weathered those 1st 6-9 minutes. Too bad their primes were ~20 years apart. THAT fight would have been EPIC; a true battle of the most dominant fighters of their respective eras with 2 completely different styles & strategies. Ali's legs would have gotten him through round 1. Could they have kept him away from the devestation Tyson would bring for 5 or so more minutes? Again, probably, but not definitely.

He would have run circles around Tyson.

 

I posted a couple of his full fights, as well as a charity bout against Dave Semenko, in the othe sports thread.

[K-9]

He would have run circles around Tyson.

I posted a couple of his full fights, as well as a charity bout against Dave Semenko, in the othe sports thread.

Circles indeed! Ali moved like no other heavyweight before or since. Tyson would have been no match for Ali's speed, quickness, and reach. Not to mention fight knowledge. For all his superior physical traits, Ali was an even greater tactician. He thought a fight like nobody else.

 

All that, and he was robbed of three of his best prime years as a boxer.

Edited June 4, 2016 by K-9

[Taro T]

He would have run circles around Tyson.

I posted a couple of his full fights, as well as a charity bout against Dave Semenko, in the othe sports thread.

Probably. But he never fought a guy that just flat out punched like Tyson did - no sizing up the opponent, just head in and throw 'em. My money would be on Ali, but it wasn't a certainty that he'd win.

[Thorny]

An Ali-Tyson fight would have been an epic, had they somehow been from the same era.

 

But for my money, Ali was the greatest of all-time, any sport.

[Weave]

Circles indeed! Ali moved like no other heavyweight before or since. Tyson would have been no match for Ali's speed, quickness, and reach. Not to mention fight knowledge. For all his superior physical traits, Ali was an even greater tactician. He thought a fight like nobody else.

 

All that, and he was robbed of three of his best prime years as a boxer.

You greatly underestimate Tysons quickness. He was every bit as quick as he was powerful. If he got inside on Ali, Ali never would have seen the shot coming that dropped him. Ali would have to stay outside. Ali was VERY good at staying outside. If he toyed with Mike the way he toyed with Frasier it would have cost him dearly. Tysons hands were every bit as quick ad Alis were.

[nfreeman]

Post - exile Ali would've certainly respected peak Tyson's power and rudimentary skill, and would've game-planned appropriately, waited for the right moment and put Tyson down (much like he did against Foreman). Pre-exile Ali, like pre-baseball Jordan, would've just done whatever he wanted, whenever he wanted.

 

As a side note, Foreman, Frazier and Norton would've been great opponents for Tyson.

[K-9]

You greatly underestimate Tysons quickness. He was every bit as quick as he was powerful. If he got inside on Ali, Ali never would have seen the shot coming that dropped him. Ali would have to stay outside. Ali was VERY good at staying outside. If he toyed with Mike the way he toyed with Frasier it would have cost him dearly. Tysons hands were every bit as quick ad Alis were.

Ali in his prime, before he was stripped of his title, with a 7 inch reach advantage? Tyson wouldn't stand a chance. 

 

I am not underestimating Tyson's quickness so much as you are underestimating Ali's in his prime, before his first comeback. 

[SwampD]

Ali in his prime, before he was stripped of his title, with a 7 inch reach advantage? Tyson wouldn't stand a chance. 

 

I am not underestimating Tyson's quickness so much as you are underestimating Ali's in his prime, before his first comeback.

 

I'm with We've on this. I think both of them at their prime, it's a pick'em between the two.

[Weave]

Ali in his prime, before he was stripped of his title, with a 7 inch reach advantage? Tyson wouldn't stand a chance.

 

I am not underestimating Tyson's quickness so much as you are underestimating Ali's in his prime, before his first comeback.

Ive watched them both. Ali was better. No doubt. But he also never faced someone quite as dangerous as a prime Tyson. Yes Ali would have a huge advantage outside. All im saying is, if Tyson got inside.... Ali had never experienced the hand speed and power Tyson had.

I'm with We've on this. I think both of them at their prime, it's a pick'em between the two.

It depends on whether Ali kept Tyson outside. Ali was way better outside.

 

 

 

Does anyone else miss thw heyday of boxing, or is it just me?

 

Even after Ali's skills faded there were tons of middle and welterweights that were amazing to watch.

Edited June 5, 2016 by We've

[K-9]

Ive watched them both. Ali was better. No doubt. But he also never faced someone quite as dangerous as a prime Tyson. Yes Ali would have a huge advantage outside. All im saying is, if Tyson got inside.... Ali had never experienced the hand speed and power Tyson had.

It depends on whether Ali kept Tyson outside. Ali was way better outside.

 

 

 

Does anyone else miss thw heyday of boxing, or is it just me?

 

Even after Ali's skills faded there were tons of middle and welterweights that were amazing to watch.

That seven inch reach advantage of Ali would have clinched it, imo. The Ali between '63-'67 is the greatest heavyweight fighter of all time in terms of sheer athletic ability and boxing intelligence. In fact, I don't think I've ever witnessed a better tactician in any class. 

 

On a side note, today I reheard the story of how he tossed his Olympic gold medal into a river after being refused service in a restaurant down south. I still can't believe that occurred in my lifetime.

[Weave]

He was amazing. Im glad i had the chance to watch him work. The world lost a truly iconic figure. Larger than the sport. Not another fighter can claim that. Maybe not another athlete.

[Neo]

Ali v Tyson ...

 

I used to give this thought during Tyson's hay day. I come down on Ali's side in a measured way, like Taro does.

 

Interestingly, they both had two careers. Ali had pre and post ban, and Tyson had with and without D'Amato.

 

I found myself comparing each at their earliest, each at their latest, and older Ali with younger Tyson (chronologically closest). Each is a markedly different fight.

 

I settled on the bodies of work. Ali morphed to be the best as time, opponent and skill set changed. Tyson won 2/3rds of his fights before the opening bell sounded because opponents entered the ring terrified. Ali could change his style to match Tyson's. Ali's fearlessness would deprive Tyson of the advantage Mike had so regularly against others.

 

Advantage Ali in what would be something to see. Artisanal poetry vs singleminded mayhem.

Edited June 5, 2016 by N'eo

[Weave]

Is anyone else's anti virus software sounding off when they click on this thread?  Twice now for me.

[Eleven]

Probably. But he never fought a guy that just flat out punched like Tyson did - no sizing up the opponent, just head in and throw 'em. My money would be on Ali, but it wasn't a certainty that he'd win.

 

 

Foreman.

 

Sorry, my man.

 

Tyson in his day was a better puncher than anyone before.

 

But Foreman in his day was, too.  And Ali faced him when Ali was on his decline.

[Neo]

Foreman.

 

Sorry, my man.

 

Tyson in his day was a better puncher than anyone before.

 

But Foreman in his day was, too. And Ali faced him when Ali was on his decline.

Ali was 3-0 against Mayhem, counting Liston (2) and Foreman. That grows to 5-1 if you include Norton. A broken jaw was involved in the 1 loss. Of course, that's an outcome and not an excuse when you're evaluating Ali against sluggers. If you add Ernie shavers, it's 6-1. I don't think punching power deterred Ali. Edited June 5, 2016 by N'eo

[Taro T]

Foreman.

 

Sorry, my man.

 

Tyson in his day was a better puncher than anyone before.

 

But Foreman in his day was, too.  And Ali faced him when Ali was on his decline.

Foreman could never move like Iron Mike. Nor did he ever (at least in my experience) just flat out explode from the bell. No doubt in my mind Tyson was better than George.

 

Iron Mike didn't get the same level of competition Ali had, but Ali never dominated the entire bracket like Tyson did. I believe Ali would win the fight, but in no way is that a given. Ali NEVER faced an all out frontal assault like Tyson would bring. I expect he could've withstood it, but am in no way positive he could. Before or since, I've never seen anyone just flat out destroy their opponents like the D'Amato Tyson.

[PASabreFan]

Savages.

[Taro T]

Savages.

Savages my arse. This isn't anything goes MMA.

[Thorny]

Foreman could never move like Iron Mike. Nor did he ever (at least in my experience) just flat out explode from the bell. No doubt in my mind Tyson was better than George.

Iron Mike didn't get the same level of competition Ali had, but Ali never dominated the entire bracket like Tyson did. I believe Ali would win the fight, but in no way is that a given. Ali NEVER faced an all out frontal assault like Tyson would bring. I expect he could've withstood it, but am in no way positive he could. Before or since, I've never seen anyone just flat out destroy their opponents like the D'Amato Tyson.

Perhaps a trilogy between the two. Ali takes 2, Tyson 1. That would be my prediction.