darksabre Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 Unfortunately that's not how diplomacy/international relations works. In fact, you can't let it work like that because if you let your motivations, goals and tactics be known, adversaries will take advantage of that information. I disagree. Any major action the United States takes will almost certainly have to be done openly and with the consent of the American people. There's no way we take any kind of decisive military action in the ME without the whole world knowing we're doing it. And if the government wants our lasting support in an endeavor like that, then it has to come with realistic cost/benefit analyses. We deserve to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 I disagree. Any major action the United States takes will almost certainly have to be done openly and with the consent of the American people. There's no way we take any kind of decisive military action in the ME without the whole world knowing we're doing it. And if the government wants our lasting support in an endeavor like that, then it has to come with realistic cost/benefit analyses. We deserve to know. One of these can be accomplished without the other Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattPie Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 Also, there is the trust one has in the solution. Even if Obama convened a closed panel with top senators and congressmen from each party and they came up with a clear consensus, would the American public be able to support it? I think the answer is no; they don't want effective solutions, they want immediate gratification. Even if all major politicians in the country approved a course of action, the country would never stay the course and see it through. But there's also blood lust, the desire for a quick solution, the mixing of the presidential race with national security. You're boiling this down to a dispassionate cost effectiveness analysis but in the media age everyone wants to have their say, to disagree, to prove the leadership wrong. The nation would hold course until someone decided that they might swing a few votes by attacking it, at which point their side of the media would relentlessly talk about it and how bad the other side is for supporting it. We keep wanting to push what we value as a nation onto them. Those men joining ISIS because they want stability? They are OK with a dictator as long as they get the stability they crave. They don't want democracy. If we are speaking specifically of those drawn to ISIS, voting is against their beliefs. They want democracy, I'd bet, but in the absence of that being a reasonable path they'll take a dictator that roughly aligns with their values and stops people being killed in the market as a daily occurrence. It's not really surprising, you'll see arguments on Facebook where people will quickly want the American government to stop something they disagree with even if it flies in the face of what we'd call American values. And to be clear, it's certainly both "sides" that does it. There's also the non-trivial possibility that a democratically elected leader would be worse for US interests than a dictator. That's been part of the reason our foreign policy in that area (and others) has gone so badly. The US government will prop up "bad guys" if they're friendly to the US and keep their population in line. Democratically elected governments in that area probably won't be pro-USA. I disagree. Any major action the United States takes will almost certainly have to be done openly and with the consent of the American people. There's no way we take any kind of decisive military action in the ME without the whole world knowing we're doing it. And if the government wants our lasting support in an endeavor like that, then it has to come with realistic cost/benefit analyses. We deserve to know. I'd almost think the US would be best off firing up the arsenal of democracy. Provide all kinds of support from material to intelligence but try to keep back where possible. The population is suspect of anything coming from the USA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 (edited) Major Soccer stadium being evacuated in Germany, Police confirm thwarted terrorist threat http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/hannover-stadium-hosting-germany-netherlands-game-evacuated-35255917 http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/17/europe/germany-netherlands-soccer-canceled/index.html German media outlets Der Spiegel and Bild Zeitung reported the tips came from France's intelligence agency. The French alerted German federal police to an "Iraqi sleeper cell" with plans to stage an attack. CNN has not independently confirmed the repo France returning the favor Germany forgot to do in the first place German anti-terrorist and special forces are arriving, shutting down sections of the city Edited November 17, 2015 by WildCard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 Major Soccer stadium being evacuated in Germany, Police confirm thwarted terrorist threat http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/hannover-stadium-hosting-germany-netherlands-game-evacuated-35255917 http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/17/europe/germany-netherlands-soccer-canceled/index.html France returning the favor Germany forgot to do in the first place German anti-terrorist and special forces are arriving, shutting down sections of the city If the goal of ISIS is to bring all of Europe down on them, they might get their wish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huckleberry Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 Major Soccer stadium being evacuated in Germany, Police confirm thwarted terrorist threat http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/hannover-stadium-hosting-germany-netherlands-game-evacuated-35255917 http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/17/europe/germany-netherlands-soccer-canceled/index.html France returning the favor Germany forgot to do in the first place German anti-terrorist and special forces are arriving, shutting down sections of the city No bombs were found in and around the hannover stadium. If the goal of ISIS is to bring all of Europe down on them, they might get their wish. We are even talking to Russia :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 No bombs were found in and around the hannover stadium. We are even talking to Russia :blink: To be sure, I'm not sure everyone else really wants Russia there since they're propping up Assad, but I guess we'll burn that bridge if we cross it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjag Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 So the US is bombing the heck out of Syria, Russians are bombing and sending in cruise missiles. The French are bombing the hell out of Syria. Britain is lobbying their government to bomb the hell out of Syria Syria must really be hell on Earth right now Anybody else have some bombs they want to drop in the desert? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 So the US is bombing the heck out of Syria, Russians are bombing and sending in cruise missiles. The French are bombing the hell out of Syria. Britain is lobbying their government to bomb the hell out of Syria Syria must really be hell on Earth right now Anybody else have some bombs they want to drop in the desert? I had tuna for lunch today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 (edited) Awesome ... must read. Definitely a side of the aisle piece. http://thefederalist.com/2015/11/17/16-of-the-worst-ways-to-respond-to-isis-paris-attack/ Particularly interesting ... What ISIS is and wants ... in its words. Not for President Obama fans. Still, a great read. Read the satirical Facebook post in light of our back and forth. Edited November 18, 2015 by N'eo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Awesome ... must read. Definitely a side of the aisle piece. http://thefederalist.com/2015/11/17/16-of-the-worst-ways-to-respond-to-isis-paris-attack/ Particularly interesting ... What ISIS is and wants ... in its words. Not for President Obama fans. Still, a great read. Read the satirical Facebook post in light of our back and forth. The viewpoint authorizes a few dozen people to interpret the holy text of a 1500 year old religion and claim absolute authority. And the "you are not true muslims" line isn't a "regressive left" position, it's the position of an actual muslim who you interact with on a regular basis. I don't find this piece to be particularly interesting. I find it to be an attempt to paint Monet's Lilies with an industrial size roller brush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 (edited) You don't find many Monets in magazine racks. I appreciate your thoughts on that one aspect of the article. The Lilies imagery is way cool. You did find it interesting enough to comment on. Come on, give me that. My interest isn't the internal religious debate. That's for the experts, our good friend included. My interest, in the politics of Paris thread, is in the policy implications when leaders make the same authority error you point out. The magazine points out non-Muslims lecturing Muslims with regard to what they stand for. I object to this. I think you do, too. I obsrve our leadership, see it doing the same thing, and worry the policy implications. I'll send your admonition to The White House. Edited November 18, 2015 by N'eo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huckleberry Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 (edited) Paris Police just made 7 arrests and one killed after a stand down since 04.00 am this morning. the person killed was a female suicide bomber. One dog also got killed , A mechelse herder or malinois. Best attack dogs, brave dogs they don't hold back. Edit one more terrorist got killed by a sniper apparently. Edited November 18, 2015 by Huckleberry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarasotaSabre Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 They simply don't care about easy and painless. They fervently believe it is their role in the world to bring on an apocalypse that will lead to a worldwide caliphate. It has nothing to do with live and let live. The problem in dealing with them is we project that they are just like us. They're not. Their worldview has decidedly different underpinnings. Most rational people understand they are not like us - fundamentally & profoundly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 You don't find many Monets in magazine racks. I appreciate your thoughts on that one aspect of the article. The Lilies imagery is way cool. You did find it interesting enough to comment on. Come on, give me that. My interest isn't the internal religious debate. That's for the experts, our good friend included. My interest, in the politics of Paris thread, is in the policy implications when leaders make the same authority error you point out. The magazine points out non-Muslims lecturing Muslims with regard to what they stand for. I object to this. I think you do, too. I obsrve our leadership, see it doing the same thing, and worry the policy implications. I'll send your admonition to The White House. My point is that if these men practiced an ancient folk religion (Tamils) or Christianity (Lord's Resistance Army) the result would be similar. When they say "we do this because we Islam commands us to", they are simply wrong. _______________________________________________________________________________ Saint-Denis is where I was an exchange student. This whole thing is getting surreal for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Buffalo Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Most rational people understand they are not like us - fundamentally & profoundly. The hard part is diferentiating between those coming out of the area and Iding them v. those muslims who believe in their faith but willing to stand with others of different faiths. The area is so polarized its gonna take real leadership and there doesnt seem to be much anywhere right now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doohickie Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 If the goal of ISIS is to bring all of Europe down on them, they might get their wish. The thought process isn't as much about military wins and losses, it's about setting the West against Islam, then recruiting the Muslims already in Europe that have been rejected in their own countries. It's psychological warfare on a grand scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pastajoe Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 The Republican candidates are falling over each other to compete for who can look toughest against Muslims. First Carson said no to a hypothetical Muslim president. Then Christie says no to even orphaned children refugees. Kasich wants a new federal agency to promote "Judeo-Christian Western values". And Trump wants to close some mosques in the US. The next debate will be a doozy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doohickie Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Rejecting Syrian refugees creates terrorists. It's not that hard a concept to grasp. But politicians are more concerned with making political capital from their constituents' fear than they are about acting with courage. Rejecting the Muslims already in your society also creates terrorists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claude_Verret Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Rejecting Syrian refugees creates terrorists. It's not that hard a concept to grasp. But politicians are more concerned with making political capital from their constituents' fear than they are about acting with courage. Rejecting the Muslims already in your society also creates terrorists. I agree that rejecting the refugees is probably a bad idea overall, but at the same time there isn't much that we or other western nations have done, are doing or will do in the future that doesn't create or embolden terrorists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjag Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 The more I look and listen to France, post attack, the more I see them installing a US type response to 9/11 including their own version of the Patriot Act. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeygirl Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Hey guys, just wanted to add my two cents. There's a good huffpost article that may be of help to those who want to see if there is any proof that Islam and in particular, Muhammad would condemn this if he were alive today. There is overwhelming proof against this sort of behavior and I'd have to say what we are seeing is a clear example of the Hegelian dialect, i.e problem-reaction-solution. It is what moves along the geopolitical game. "Today the dialectic is active in every political issue that encourages taking sides. We can see it in environmentalists instigating conflicts against private property owners, in democrats against republicans, in greens against libertarians, in communists against socialists, in neo-cons against traditional conservatives, in community activists against individuals, in pro-choice versus pro-life, in Christians against Muslims, in isolationists versus interventionists, in peace activists against war hawks. No matter what the issue, the invisible dialectic aims to control both the conflict and the resolution of differences, and leads everyone involved into a new cycle of conflicts." http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/05/dialectic.htm In terms of where can we find condemnation of this in Islam, I would just like to link the article and present some authentic sayings recorded from Muhammad. "At this time of dissension, he said there would appear "a group of young people who would be immature in thought and foolish." They would speak beautiful words but commit the most heinous of deeds. They would engage in so much prayer and fasting that the worship of the Muslims would appear insignificant in comparison. They would call people to the Quran but would have nothing to do with it in reality. The Quran would not go beyond their throats, meaning they wouldn't understand its essence at all, merely regurgitating it selectively. The Prophet then went on to describe these people as "the worst of the creation." As if this outline wasn't clear enough, another tradition in the book Kitaab Al Fitan reported by Caliph Ali, the fourth successor to Prophet Muhammad, describes these people as having long hair and bearing black flags. Their "hearts will be hard as iron," and they would be the companions of a State (Ashab ul Dawla). Interestingly, ISIS refers to itself as the Islamic State or Dawla. The tradition further mentions that they will break their covenants, not speak the truth and have names that mention their cities. The ISIS caliph, Abu Bakr al Baghdadi, comes to mind. Prophet Muhammad furiously and painfully described these evildoers, and admonished Muslims to beware of their evil and fight it. "Whoever fights them is better to Allah than them," he proclaimed. http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/7702064 Anyways, we are all susceptible to emotional reactions but we're going to have to try real hard to retain and build upon our critical thinking capabilities and band together against tyranny of any kind! And just as side note, I know I haven't posted in forever but I am around and am watching allllllll the games with my free Rogers NHL gamecenter live app and it's amazing!!!!! My quality of life has improved tremendously since chromecast and live streaming! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Supposedly, 5 Syrian refugees were busted with stolen trying to get into the US through Honduras. Who mentioned them coming in through the southern border? http://wtvr.com/2015/11/18/honduras-detains-five-syrians-over-fake-passports/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Supposedly, 5 Syrian refugees were busted with stolen trying to get into the US through Honduras. Who mentioned them coming in through the southern border? http://wtvr.com/2015/11/18/honduras-detains-five-syrians-over-fake-passports/ Donald Trump? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Supposedly, 5 Syrian refugees were busted with stolen trying to get into the US through Honduras. Who mentioned them coming in through the southern border? http://wtvr.com/2015/11/18/honduras-detains-five-syrians-over-fake-passports/ These are not refugees, but good work by the Hondurans to ID the fake passports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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