K-9 Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 (edited) Ask anyone you know who's graduated from West Point in the last 25 years what they think about France.No thanks. I am not interested in what they have to say about France. But I am sick of the tired rhetoric from the right. From them being an ungrateful and cowardly ally in WWII, to the outrage for them not letting our bombers fly over their airspace when we bombed Qaddaffi in the mid 80s, to the Freedom Fries cry because they objected to our Iraq policies. You name it, there has been no shortage of manufactured outrage against that country for years. And why? Edited November 14, 2015 by K-9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 Well, nfreeman, there goes your theory. What theory is that? That France won't get the kind of US support it wants? Yet another air strike/ drone attack isn't what's needed here. The French may have finally realized it, but not our president. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 No thanks. I am not interested in what they have to say about France. But I am sick of the tired rhetoric from the right. From them being an ungrateful and cowardly ally in WWII, to the outrage for them not letting our bombers fly over their airspace when we bombed Qaddaffi in the mid 80s, to the Freedom Fries cry because they objected to our Iraq policies. You name it, there has been no shortage of manufactured outrage against that country for years. And why? I'm sick of bad weather, disease and acne from the right, too! Oh, and platform shoes and bell bottoms! Menudo and other boy bands ... and everything i don't like! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 I'm sick of bad weather, disease and acne from the right, too! Oh, and platform shoes and bell bottoms! Menudo and other boy bands ... and everything i don't like! Amusing. You mentioned up thread that before you visited France you had a far different opinion of her. What was that opinion and what shaped it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 (edited) Amusing. You mentioned up thread that before you visited France you had a far different opinion of her. What was that opinion and what shaped it? I owe you more! I had an opinion not far from the one you laid out, example by example. Guilty as charged. Perhaps not so strident, but close. I never stopped ordering French fries, however. I never took the Freedom Fries step. Seemed silly. I sneered at the Dixie Chicks, instead. My joke (and I'm glad you laughed) was inspired by it being a left/right thing. My early view was formed/affirmed living among a union Democrat, WWII veteran filled, South Buffalo, liberal to you die, beautiful family and neighbors. For fun. Click here, and imagine walking inside and announcing "The French are awesome". http://www.forgottenbuffalo.com/classictavernslastcall.html Edited November 14, 2015 by N'eo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 The Coneheads are from France. The place can't be all that bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 The Coneheads are from France. The place can't be all that bad. Fried chicken embryos! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtDart Posted November 15, 2015 Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 As in they haven't ? only thing that can stop this is a well coordinated boots on the ground offensive coordinated with russia and china. But this is where it stings, USA doesn't want to work with those two. Over the last decade plus the French have sat on the sidelines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BagBoy Posted November 15, 2015 Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 (edited) I'd go so far as to say that we would not under any circumstances have won independence without France. It was France's navy that kept the British presence here small, French military expertise and indeed "boots on the ground" that turned the war in our favor. Rochambeaux took more troops to the field at Yorktown than Washington did, and of course there was Lafayette. Why the narrative has changed so much over the years I can only surmise, but there should be no doubt that there is no other nation so closely aligned with us, and yes it's cut both ways.Thank you! I couldn't agree more. They also kept the British efforts in 1812 to a minimum. Then they went ahead and gave us the most iconic symbol of the USA, the Statue of Liberty. If that's not a fantastic ally for our entire history, then we need to re-assess our definition of ally. Edited November 15, 2015 by BagBoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted November 15, 2015 Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 GERMAN POLICE INTERCEPTED CAR WITH EIGHT AK-47S, GRENADES, TNT, PARIS PROGRAMMED INTO SATNAV http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/11/14/german-police-check-found-car-eight-ak-47s-grenades-tnt-paris-programmed-satnav/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtDart Posted November 15, 2015 Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 I'm quotong it for posterity. Excellent contribution. Very good post. It is an example of politicians running our country with poll results. Never ends well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjag Posted November 15, 2015 Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 Je suis Paris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted November 15, 2015 Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 Very good post. It is an example of politicians running our country with poll results. Never ends well. I agree, democracy sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted November 15, 2015 Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 And this is where our pulling out of Iraq in 2011 is so ####ing frustrating. The fighting was essentially over and rebuilding had begun. We had essentially won, but then pulled out before order (and not oppression providing order like under Saddam) could be established and entrenched as the normal state of things. The vast majority of the people in Iraq (& elsewhere in the ME) simply want to live their lives in peace & safety. Our presence there was giving the Iraqis the opportunity to provide that on their own. Once we pulled out, the small minority of sick bastards that behead people for fun managed to come back out of the shadows. They weren't ready to handle that threat on their own w/ out our support, but they could handle it with our support. I have a little bit of experience with this as I was designing a water plant to go in a major city there a couple of years ago. The security situation deteriorating was a large part of scuttling that. That was just one example of the myriad of projects that were restoring and reenforcing the normalcy that was starting to take root. Our walking out caused the restoration of that country to come out stillbirth. There were many over there that trusted us, and we just abandoned them. And before somebody says the Iraqi government pushed us out; that is bull squat. There was a status of forces agreement to be reached. Our politicians wanted out and took a convenient way out - LT consequences be d*mned. And now conditions are a lot worse than they were and we will likely have to put "boots on the ground" again - and lose 1,000's more of our kids. The big difference between then & now is there is no reason for the people that want normalcy & peace over there to trust we won't cut & run again. The 1st President Bush abandoned the Iraqi's after the war and President Obama abandoned them. We threw away the gains we earned in Iraq and sat on the sidelines during the Arab Spring. Our world could & should be so much better today. And now there are 1,000's dead in the ME that didn't have to die at the hands of barbarians and over 100 in Paris. :cry: Probably should've deleted this one before posting just like the 3 versions of it that were written last night. Oh well. 1. Shouldn't have been in Iraq to begin with. 2. Fomented Arab Spring. 3. Couldn't visibly participate in Arab Spring because credibility was destroyed; see 1, above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted November 15, 2015 Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/11/14/german-police-check-found-car-eight-ak-47s-grenades-tnt-paris-programmed-satnav/ Who did they send the report to, Condi Rice? Is there a French version of Dick Cheney, twirling his pencil mustache as he dreams of no-bid contracts for his former company? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted November 15, 2015 Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 Who did they send the report to, Condi Rice? Is there a French version of Dick Cheney, twirling his pencil mustache as he dreams of no-bid contracts for his former company? From illegally dealing with Iraq in the late 90s to illegally selling Iran nuclear centrifuges to enrich their Uranium, there is no rogue nation too rogue for Halliburton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thwomp! Posted November 15, 2015 Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 Agreed. Double agreed, although I would like for the US to take a surgeon's approach. Attack ISIS with a scalpel, take them out from the neck up. I'm thinking drones. Rain from above. Not a downpour, but a calculated mist. There are about 17 million people left in Syria and 33 million in Iraq. CIA estimates there are 20-30,000 ISIS members. Let's go with 30,000. We are fighting the 0.06%. Need to be precise in order to avoid rupturing any brain arteries (innocent casualties). This is essentially what we're doing. And it's not working because of technology and/or faulty intelligence and/or error. 90% of kills due to these "targeted drone strikes" are civilians. We're bombing hospitals, weddings, residences, etc. This actually makes people understandably hate us more and become more radicalized. This is one of the main reasons that I maintain that the solution needs to be very, very heavy on "hearts and minds" and very very light on military means. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/civilian-deaths-drone-strikes_561fafe2e4b028dd7ea6c4ff The numbers you cite make me think that we're bombing needles in haystacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Posted November 15, 2015 Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 Opinions all .... should / can a US President order the killing of a US citizen abroad with a drone strike targeting that specific citizen? The intersection of hawkish posture and the Constitution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted November 15, 2015 Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 Very good post. It is an example of politicians running our country with poll results. Never ends well. It's well thought out. But inaccurate. GW Bush signed the status of forces agreement agreeing to withdraw all US troops by the end of 2011. Opinions all .... should / can a US President order the killing of a US citizen abroad with a drone strike targeting that specific citizen? The intersection of hawkish posture and the Constitution. If it is an enemy combatant, sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Posted November 15, 2015 Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 (edited) Can enemy combatants be killed without due process? I'm not trying to lead you anywhere. I struggle with this. Is GITMO legit? In other words - if you can kill a US citizen without due process, can you hold someone in a facility without trial? Edited November 15, 2015 by N'eo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted November 15, 2015 Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 Can enemy combatants be killed without due process? I'm not trying to lead you anywhere. I struggle with this. Is GITMO legit? Sure. Under Geneva. But once they are in Custody they should get all the protections of POWs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Posted November 15, 2015 Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 Maybe I make it too hard. The al-Awlaki drone strike has always troubled me. His demise doesn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted November 15, 2015 Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 Maybe I make it too hard. The al-Awlaki drone strike has always troubled me. His demise doesn't. It doesn't bother me at all. He wasn't on a US passport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted November 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 Can enemy combatants be killed without due process? I'm not trying to lead you anywhere. I struggle with this. Is GITMO legit? In other words - if you can kill a US citizen without due process, can you hold someone in a facility without trial? They're Kurdish soldiers and not US soldiers so they follow an entirely different rule, but they're killing every soldier from the Islamic State they capture. They do this because they have no use for them since they're leaders don't value them/won't make prisoner trades and the soldiers would rather be dead anyways. They attempt to get information from them, then kill them. Another huge reason they do this is for fear of booby-trapped bodies. They've lost some of their own after capturing somebody who happened to be wielding an explosive or other fatal dangers within. I'm not advocating for this. It's just a way and reason another group is dealing with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewookie1 Posted November 15, 2015 Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 Opinions all .... should / can a US President order the killing of a US citizen abroad with a drone strike targeting that specific citizen? The intersection of hawkish posture and the Constitution. Upon capture they'd be considered traitors but would receive the proper judicial process. If they are fighting with the enemy then they are enemy combatants and need to be dealt with accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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