Trade: Myers, Stafford, Armia, Lemieux, + Low 1st for Kane, Bogosian, and Kasdorf

[Thwomp!]

 

Yes, although I would describe it as a dud in terms of unmet hopes, rather than a dud in terms of the Sabres getting burned by overpaying. 

 

 

 

You're parsing a bit too much here.  Unmet hopes=Sabres overpaying.  They paid for what they expected/hoped for from Kane/Bogo.

 

 

JAG? Sorry, not sure what this is...

Chevy wanted and valued Armia higher than Lemieux and his ceiling is higher than Lemieux's.

 

I think as an all around player, that Lemieux's ceiling is much higher than Armia's.

[K-9]

Kane has also not shown much, if any, of the physical aspect that he was purported to have either.

Much can be said about several aspects of Kanes's game that haven't been seen, like scoringand decision making, but I can't question his physical presence on the ice at all. He brings it every game and is a pain in the ass to play against more often than not.

 

GO SABRES!!!

[Ducky]

I would disagree and say that Armia's D game is very, very good. Armia is also older and should be better developed right now than Lemieux...I just see Lemieux as a 4th liner 3 tops....honestly, I don't like his character and wouldn't mind if he were traded, but that's me.

 

This trade can still not be judged yet and it may work out that both teams won. If anyone thinks this is the best that Kane can be or will be they are mistaken. Easily the highest potential and game changer if he is on his game. The injury and personal BS has affected his game for sure. You know what you get every time Kaner hit s the ice. Bogo on the other hand will give you about 60 or so games a year. Some where you think he is Scott Stevens and others where you want him gone yesterday.

[Thwomp!]

Much can be said about several aspects of Kanes's game that haven't been seen, like scoringand decision making, but I can't question his physical presence on the ice at all. He brings it every game and is a pain in the ass to play against more often than not.

 

GO SABRES!!!

 

Meh, the physical part has been the best part of his game, but that's not saying much.

 

 

I would disagree and say that Armia's D game is very, very good. Armia is also older and should be better developed right now than Lemieux...I just see Lemieux as a 4th liner 3 tops....honestly, I don't like his character and wouldn't mind if he were traded, but that's me.

 

This trade can still not be judged yet and it may work out that both teams won. If anyone thinks this is the best that Kane can be or will be they are mistaken. Easily the highest potential and game changer if he is on his game. The injury and personal BS has affected his game for sure. You know what you get every time Kaner hit s the ice. Bogo on the other hand will give you about 60 or so games a year. Some where you think he is Scott Stevens and others where you want him gone yesterday.

 

I agree with Freeman, that Armia is just another guy.  Lemieux, however, has the potential to be a Marchand/Gallagher/Burrows type that everyone needs.  That's his character.  The guy you want on your team, but don't want to play against. The Sabres could still use one of those guys, which is why I was sad to see him go in the trade.  Only time will tell on both of them, though.

[TrueBlueGED]

I think if Lemieux's last name was Jones, fans generally would be far less excited about his potential.

[Thwomp!]

I think if Lemieux's last name was Jones, fans generally would be far less excited about his potential.

 

Does this Jones guy have the size, stats, and sandpaper that Lemieux has?  If so, sign me up because those guys don't grow on trees.  Where's our guy on the team or the pipeline that plays that role?

 

I listed the reasons why I like Lemieux and didn't say "because of the name" once.  You're apparently the one stuck on name. 

[dudacek]

Bogo was never supposed to put up points, at least not in the 30-plus range.

He is supposed eat minutes, shut down opponents and punish the opposition.

He isn't doing that, but he had a serious injury that put him two months behind in his conditioning and in learning the system.

He is a better player than what we've seen, but one has to question if his body and commitment will allow him to reach his potential.

 

Kane is a proven excellent forechecker, possession player and 20-goal scorer.

We've seen bad bounces, frustration, an injury and an off-ice issue.

His skill set is rare and suggests 30 goals should be routine but that's only happened once and the way he works in the team concept certainly raises questions.

Way too early to pass judgment on either.

Edited January 7, 2016 by dudacek

[Thwomp!]

Bogo was never supposed to put up points, at least not in the 30-plus range.

He is supposed eat minutes, shut down opponents and punish the opposition.

He isn't doing that, but he had a serious injury that put him two months behind in his conditioning and in learning the system.

He is a better player than what we've seen, but one has to question if his body and commitment will allow him to reach his potential.

 

Kane is a proven excellent forechecker, possession player and 20-goal scorer.

We've seen bad bounces, frustration, an injury and an off-ice issue.

His skill set is rare and suggests 30 goals should be routine but that's only happened once and the way he works in the team concept certainly raises questions.

Way too early to pass judgment on either.

 

I think the end of the season will be a good benchmark for sure.  They've both played enough in the first half where they should be showing improved play, but it isn't happening yet.

 

I want to eat my hat on this one, but I don't think I'm going to have to.  

 

What I'm afraid of based on evidence so far: The Jets found an easy mark and offloaded their baggage on said mark and were amazed that the mark kept adding more and more to the deal.  

[inkman]

Does this Jones guy have the size, stats, and sandpaper that Lemieux has? If so, sign me up because those guys don't grow on trees. Where's our guy on the team or the pipeline that plays that role?

 

Foligno, Girgensons, Bailey, Baptiste, Fasching, carrier, and to some extent Delauries all do to some extent. At least enough to not require another. Will they all be 4th line cheap shot artists. No, some may actually have enough talent to produce in the NHL.

[Thwomp!]

Foligno, Girgensons, Bailey, Baptiste, Fasching, carrier, and to some extent Delauries all do to some extent. At least enough to not require another. Will they all be 4th line cheap shot artists. No, some may actually have enough talent to produce in the NHL.

 

That's what I'm saying.  They "all do to some extent".  Where's the complete package?  Lemieux's 1.5 ppg average is essentially what Alexander Nylander averages in the OHL and everyone's drooling over him.  Also doesn't sound like a 4th liner to me, but to each their own I guess. 

[#freejame]

That's what I'm saying.  They "all do to some extent".  Where's the complete package?  Lemieux's 1.5 ppg average is essentially what Alexander Nylander averages in the OHL and everyone's drooling over him.  Also doesn't sound like a 4th liner to me, but to each their own I guess. 

Because he's faster, younger, a better all around player and most importantly he's not a dirty player.

[LGR4GM]

That's what I'm saying.  They "all do to some extent".  Where's the complete package?  Lemieux's 1.5 ppg average is essentially what Alexander Nylander averages in the OHL and everyone's drooling over him.  Also doesn't sound like a 4th liner to me, but to each their own I guess. 

Lemiuex is 2 full years older than Nylander so that stat is worthless.  Let's take a look at that stat you really need to know...

 

In his draft year: Lemieux = 0.815ppg

Current average Nylander = 1.485ppg

 

GPG Draft Year

Lemieux = 0.415

Nylander = 0.636

 

Nylander at the same age is better than Lemiuex was.

Edited January 7, 2016 by LGR4GM

[Thwomp!]

Because he's faster, younger, a better all around player and most importantly he's not a dirty player.

18 vs 19? Very little difference there. Lemieux's ppg the same and brings "tough to play against" which Nylander doesn't bring. Yes Nylander is more skilled but I'm talking about the skilled agitator role that we don't currently have in the pipeline.

 

Last I'm saying on the whole subject because I'm obviously fighting an uphill battle: this trade was bad to begin with and it's looking worse, not better so far over time. I know it's a sin to question GMTM around here, but based on current evidence he got fleeced on this one.

Lemiuex is 2 full years older than Nylander so that stat is worthless.  Let's take a look at that stat you really need to know...

 

In his draft year: Lemieux = 0.815ppg

Current average Nylander = 1.485ppg

 

GPG Draft Year

Lemieux = 0.415

Nylander = 0.636

 

Nylander at the same age is better than Lemiuex was.

Better at scoring? How about better at size, physicality, and scoring all together? Scoring is not the only factor here, even though that's not very far off either.

[#freejame]

18 vs 19? Very little difference there. Lemieux's ppg the same and brings "tough to play against" which Nylander doesn't bring. Yes Nylander is more skilled but I'm talking about the skilled agitator role that we don't currently have in the pipeline.

 

Last I'm saying on the whole subject because I'm obviously fighting an uphill battle: this trade was bad to begin with and it's looking worse, not better so far over time. I know it's a sin to question GMTM around here, but based on current evidence he got fleeced on this one.

 

Better at scoring? How about better at size, physicality, and scoring all together? Scoring is not the only factor here, even though that's not very far off either.

Nylander is 17, or 23 months younger than Lemieux, which is a pretty big difference in the OHL and life in general at that age. Not to mention Bailey and Baptiste have nearly identical size and ppg as Lemieux in their overage seasons and can both be agitators without getting suspended and racking up penalty minutes. We had three of the same guys in our pipeline and we got rid of the lowest one IMO.

 

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=116970

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=177647

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=106161 

[nfreeman]

18 vs 19? Very little difference there. Lemieux's ppg the same and brings "tough to play against" which Nylander doesn't bring. Yes Nylander is more skilled but I'm talking about the skilled agitator role that we don't currently have in the pipeline.

 

Last I'm saying on the whole subject because I'm obviously fighting an uphill battle: this trade was bad to begin with and it's looking worse, not better so far over time. I know it's a sin to question GMTM around here, but based on current evidence he got fleeced on this one.

 

Better at scoring? How about better at size, physicality, and scoring all together? Scoring is not the only factor here, even though that's not very far off either.

 

FWIW, I kinda agree with you on Lemieux -- on paper he looks like a good prospect.  I expect you agree, though, that he's still just a prospect and could easily not make it in the show?

 

However, on the bolded, I go back to my cross-examination of you on this point yesterday:  are you saying that if you could go back in time and undo the trade, you would do so?

[LGR4GM]

18 vs 19? Very little difference there. Lemieux's ppg the same and brings "tough to play against" which Nylander doesn't bring. Yes Nylander is more skilled but I'm talking about the skilled agitator role that we don't currently have in the pipeline.

 

Last I'm saying on the whole subject because I'm obviously fighting an uphill battle: this trade was bad to begin with and it's looking worse, not better so far over time. I know it's a sin to question GMTM around here, but based on current evidence he got fleeced on this one.

 

Better at scoring? How about better at size, physicality, and scoring all together? Scoring is not the only factor here, even though that's not very far off either.

I am going to start at the top and work my way down...

 

1) Nylander was born in March of 98 and Lemieux March of 96.  They are two years apart and in the junior leagues that is a monumental difference.

 

2) As I demonstrate in my previous post their PPG is not the same. There is a 0.67 PPG difference in their draft years. Nylander score significantly more points at the current time.

 

3) Kane is a skilled agitator. If he was scoring like he should we would be much better off. This leads me to the Murray comment. You can criticize GMTM all you want. I think this trade gave up 1 piece to many and I wasn't a big fan of it from the start. I would like to see how it plays out over the course of the season though.  My issue is that you are using Nylander, I substantially better prospect than Lemiuex was at that age as part of your evidence and it does fly. 

 

4) They are very far for scoring as I have demonstrated twice now. Yup Lemiuex has size and physicality. Nylander has a better shot, hockey iq, skating and on ice vision from what I can tell thus far. Scoring is far enough off that Nylander is clearly the better prospect. If you had a draft today between 20yr old Lemiuex and 18 year old Nylander, Nylander would go first for 29 out of 30 GM's and the 1 who didn't take him would be wrong.

 

Furthermore Lemiuex played 42 OHL games prior to his draft year starting. Nylander played 0 and had to learn to play in NA.  So while doing both of those things, Nylander has produced significantly higher point totals than Lemieux.  Of course you want to use the point totals of a guy who is in his 4th season of OHL action versus a guy with 33 total games played in the league, that isn't even remotely a good way of judging prospects. Lemieux btw has 183 games. So it took him 183 games to get close to Nylanders production but it took Nylander 33... again one of these things is not like the other.

 

I don't really care about the trade or if GMTM screwed the pooch but Alexnader Nylander is a much better prospect than Brendan Lemieux.

Edited January 7, 2016 by LGR4GM

[nucci]

I disagree with both of the bolded.  Lemieux seems like he could've been the future replacement for the "Concept of Zemgus" if Zemgus continues to under perform.

 

He is 6'1" 209 lbs and adds alot of sandpaper as we all know.  He scores as well as agitates.  2014 in OHL: 57 games  41-19-60.  So far in 2015: 19 games  20-9-29.  Guys that can score, agitate, and have his size are not "dime a dozen".  The asset I hated to lose most was Lemieux in this trade.  I'd be much happier if we could have kept him since he seems like a "Murray type of guy".  Kane has also not shown much, if any, of the physical aspect that he was purported to have either.

 

The O'Reilly trade and the Kane/Bogo trade are completely separate.  Just because the O'Reilly trade has been a good one, it does not make this trade any better or more likely to happen.  I think the O'Reilly trade looked better from the beginning while this one has not looked so good from the start.

 

 

 

Bogo has not been good this year and has taken a few steps back from what we saw from him last year.

In all fairness he missed camp and will probably take a bit to get in to form

[Ducky]

he missed camp?

when and how did he get hurt?

[Ducky]

Rumor has it that there might be one or two people wearing track suits to the game this Sunday... anybody watching it?

[Taro T]

I would disagree and say that Armia's D game is very, very good. Armia is also older and should be better developed right now than Lemieux...I just see Lemieux as a 4th liner 3 tops....honestly, I don't like his character and wouldn't mind if he were traded, but that's me.

 

This trade can still not be judged yet and it may work out that both teams won. If anyone thinks this is the best that Kane can be or will be they are mistaken. Easily the highest potential and game changer if he is on his game. The injury and personal BS has affected his game for sure. You know what you get every time Kaner hit s the ice. Bogo on the other hand will give you about 60 or so games a year. Some where you think he is Scott Stevens and others where you want him gone yesterday.

  

 

Would agree on that. To me, this is still a trade that may work out for both teams.

 

From the Sabres side, Stafford was not going to be re-signed. They were giving up ~30 games of his service & that was it. He was a good pickup for the Peg and by getting him they got a chance to see if they really did want to make an offer to him and an opportunity to pitch it.

 

Armia, due to where he was picked, needed to become at least a 2nd liner in Buffalo. You indicate that he could settle into a 3rd or 4th line role - which is acceptable for a trade 'throw in' but not (rightly or wrongly) for a #1 pick. It's why Paille was a bust in Buffalo but an effective 4th liner in Beantown.

 

Lemieux and the 1st, while they had value, the value wasn't that great and the Sabres did/do have several other assets with similar value.

 

Losing Myers hurts (I'm probably in the minority on that opinion) but what you're seeing is what he is: a big defenseman who is strong offensively but still prone to errors in judgment on when to pinch / where to pass and who rarely plays as big as he is in his own end.

 

We're seeing Bogosian is a lot of what you'd described him as. But it's been a long time since the Sabres had a mean top 4 D-man. He fills a need and IMO is still coming back from his training camp injury.

 

Kane might never put it all together, but man oh man, if he ever does ... . And even if he doesn't, the skill set he has will be enticing to some other GM who just KNOWS he has the coach that can get him to put it all together. If Chris Gratton could get traded for good return 4 or 5 times, Evander Kane can definitely get traded for good return twice if necessary.

 

 

he missed camp?

when and how did he get hurt?

No data on how he got hurt. He looked great on the 1st day of TC and then was gone soon after that. Skating well, playing physical, and showing a reasonable shot that day.

[Ducky]

  

 

Would agree on that. To me, this is still a trade that may work out for both teams.

 

From the Sabres side, Stafford was not going to be re-signed. They were giving up ~30 games of his service & that was it. He was a good pickup for the Peg and by getting him they got a chance to see if they really did want to make an offer to him and an opportunity to pitch it.

 

Armia, due to where he was picked, needed to become at least a 2nd liner in Buffalo. You indicate that he could settle into a 3rd or 4th line role - which is acceptable for a trade 'throw in' but not (rightly or wrongly) for a #1 pick. It's why Paille was a bust in Buffalo but an effective 4th liner in Beantown.

 

Lemieux and the 1st, while they had value, the value wasn't that great and the Sabres did/do have several other assets with similar value.

 

Losing Myers hurts (I'm probably in the minority on that opinion) but what you're seeing is what he is: a big defenseman who is strong offensively but still prone to errors in judgment on when to pinch / where to pass and who rarely plays as big as he is in his own end.

 

We're seeing Bogosian is a lot of what you'd described him as. But it's been a long time since the Sabres had a mean top 4 D-man. He fills a need and IMO is still coming back from his training camp injury.

 

Kane might never put it all together, but man oh man, if he ever does ... . And even if he doesn't, the skill set he has will be enticing to some other GM who just KNOWS he has the coach that can get him to put it all together. If Chris Gratton could get traded for good return 4 or 5 times, Evander Kane can definitely get traded for good return twice if necessary.

 

 

 

No data on how he got hurt. He looked great on the 1st day of TC and then was gone soon after that. Skating well, playing physical, and showing a reasonable shot that day.

that is where is he now....I see him playing no lower than the 3rd line and probably the 2nd.

[inkman]

Rumor has it that there might be one or two people wearing track suits to the game this Sunday... anybody watching it?

No

[beerme1]

Bogo was never supposed to put up points, at least not in the 30-plus range.

He is supposed eat minutes, shut down opponents and punish the opposition.

He isn't doing that, but he had a serious injury that put him two months behind in his conditioning and in learning the system.

He is a better player than what we've seen, but one has to question if his body and commitment will allow him to reach his potential.

 

 

 

But he has done it. 30 pts albeit once.. I expect with top minutes he could again with a talented crew if he would start rushing again. And the punishment is gone. He's letting people roam to the net instead of just dropping them. I expect this to change in our favor. 

No

 

 

Yes. Show me the track suits. Evander pots three in the peg!

[Ducky]

Still think Kaner will be there until his contract expires?

[Thorny]

Even that is looking at it too deeply when it comes to Stafford.  He was a pending UFA who was going to be leaving the team at the end of the year.  Nothing more than that needs to be said about him when looking at any trade made.

 

 

This.

 

I disagree with both of the bolded.  Lemieux seems like he could've been the future replacement for the "Concept of Zemgus" if Zemgus continues to under perform.

 

He is 6'1" 209 lbs and adds alot of sandpaper as we all know.  He scores as well as agitates.  2014 in OHL: 57 games  41-19-60.  So far in 2015: 19 games  20-9-29.  Guys that can score, agitate, and have his size are not "dime a dozen".  The asset I hated to lose most was Lemieux in this trade.  I'd be much happier if we could have kept him since he seems like a "Murray type of guy".  Kane has also not shown much, if any, of the physical aspect that he was purported to have either.

 

The O'Reilly trade and the Kane/Bogo trade are completely separate.  Just because the O'Reilly trade has been a good one, it does not make this trade any better or more likely to happen.  I think the O'Reilly trade looked better from the beginning while this one has not looked so good from the start.

 

 

Bogo has not been good this year and has taken a few steps back from what we saw from him last year.

 

I know the trades are separate, and my original point wasn't to say a "good" trade makes a "bad" one better. My view is that whatever is in Murray's personality as a GM that allowed him to make a big deal like the Kane trade, was also present in his ability/decision to make the ROR trade. The idea being that some GMs, (Darcy?) would not be willing to make those type of trades. It could potentially stand to reason that if Murray wasn't the type to "take a stab" at the Kane deal, he therefore may also not have been a guy to make the O'Reilly trade. Point being - good with the not so good, there may be some misses in order to get the hits. (Not that I'm ready to rule the Kane trade a miss, I'm not)

 

Staf is [playing LW with Little and Wheeler the last 5 or so games....Ehlers is on the 2nd and Burmistrov on the 4th so Armia is relegated to the 4th.....showing good D smarts.

 

Armia has decent potential still, but a lot of his original potential as a first rounder has been diminshed, it would seem, through lack of development. He may still develop into a 2nd or 3rd line winger, but there is equal chance he doesn't. I agree he has higher upside than Lemieux. I don't care if someone wants to sing his praises, he'll never be more than a third line player. Fair chance he never makes the show.

 

I'm not trying to sh*t on Armia or your hopes for him. He may develop into a solid winger. But even odds that he doesn't last in the league. He's got 1 point in 10 games. Yes it is a small sample size. But you can't really be ecstatic about his performance thus far, can you?

 

You're parsing a bit too much here.  Unmet hopes=Sabres overpaying.  They paid for what they expected/hoped for from Kane/Bogo.

 

 

 

I think as an all around player, that Lemieux's ceiling is much higher than Armia's.

 

Armia could potentially be a second line player. Don't see it as likely, but that's his max upside. Lemieux's max is third liner.

 

I think if Lemieux's last name was Jones, fans generally would be far less excited about his potential.

 

Double True.

Still think Kaner will be there until his contract expires?

 

Yes, most likely. There are only, what, two years after this one? Hopefully he pans out. If he doesn't, they will probably trade him when his contract is up. Although I suppose they could potentially trade him at the deadline in his final contract year, if they were to decide to trade him. But that would be to attempt to maximize his value. Still think that would count as Kane being here for the terms of his contract.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Thorny