Game discussion thread GDT:10-18-2014 Boston Bruins at Buffalo Sabres 7PM, MSG, WGR

[SabresBillsFan]

 

 

Those mistakes put us in the position to re-tool. I will continue to disagree with you regarding the necessity for what we see today even with those mistakes.

 

Problem was Buffalo wanted to keep Drury and he didn't want to stay unless Briere stayed whom they didn't want or should I say didn't want to pay him what he wanted. Then throw in a handful of finishing in the teens to acquire centers or should I say Darcy didn't acquire any centers to fill the void left by them both leaving. We are back almost like an expansion team and it's going to take sometime. These scouts and Murray should be scouting in their sleep with this upcoming draft. To me this years draft is crucial.

 

 

 

Respectfully disagree. Once injuries ruined Roy and Connolly, that was the end of that group's run. If we could have added some of those second tier center to at least a healthy Roy, then we might have gotten somewhere.

 

I agree with the injuries. I thought Connelly was playing out of his mind when he was blasted and that was pretty much it for his career. Let's face it that core couldn't get it done. Should he dismantle the entire core. Probably not but it's too late for that.

[LTS]

I am not saying to actively try to trade Girgs. What I am saying is nobody on this team should be off limits IF the right offer was made. That offer would have to be proven NHL players. Not picks/prospects.

 

As for Cody. Another team may feel in THEIR environment he plays to his capability. He has talent and everyone in the league knows that. I just don't think he is the kind of guy that is going to buy into the work erhic TN demands on a last place team. Therefore, regardless of his talent he becomes a cancer.

 

I feel that when GMTM finally has the team he wants to call his own it will include 3-5 of the players currently on the roster.

 

Frankly I think it's safe to say that no player is off limits given the right scenario. I would put the number of players on the roster quite a bit higher. I think MOST of the players are ones he wants. I would say 3-5 players are the ones he does not want. He said he had his players this year.

 

We can relive what this team should have done when Pegula took over but the fact remains that there was a permeating belief that the ownership under Golisano allowed for the debacle with Briere, Drury, and Campbell. Right, wrong, it doesn't matter because it's conceivable that Regier got a pass on that. They made decisions that we can clearly see now as not being necessarily the correct ones. It doesn't matter anymore though. It happened. Now is what matters and where the team goes from here.

[Iron Crotch]

Respectfully disagree. Once injuries ruined Roy and Connolly, that was the end of that group's run. If we could have added some of those second tier center to at least a healthy Roy, then we might have gotten somewhere.

 

Roy is playing great right now. And, he is only 31. Trading him for Ott hurt this team in retrospect.

 

Darcy single-handedly ruined this team by ridding it of centers over a 5 or 6 year period. We pretty much had to trade for CoHo since we had no centers left. In isolation we applauded each move... but in totality it left us devoid of talent down the middle. Now all we can do is wait for draftees to develop as our next wave of centers since good young centers are almost impossible to acquire.

[Derrico]

Question to the season ticket holders - when/if do you stop going? Even though your stuck with the ticket it is still an expense to go to a game. When is enough enough? Not that it really matters at this point but i would love to see that place half empty every night.

 

Ownership and management do not deserve the support they have been given.

 

I'm only going to six games this year but I can't wait to get there and watch live hockey.

[nfreeman]

 

 

I did not have what I wanted in 2010. There were a number of us calling that team seriously flawed. Back then there were plenty of us that identified center ice and leadership as two areas in need of immediate attention. 08-09 was the time to get it right,

 

I won't support this tank. I just won't. It is wrong. Put in place by a GM trying to cover his @ss. And it goes against everything that sports is about.

 

I completely agree with weave on this -- both that it is awful and, more importantly, that it was completely unnecessary. I would also add that I think there is an unacceptably high risk that it just won't work and we'll be looking at many more years of futility that were also completely unnecessary.

[LastPommerFan]

I completely agree with weave on this -- both that it is awful and, more importantly, that it was completely unnecessary. I would also add that I think there is an unacceptably high risk that it just won't work and we'll be looking at many more years of futility that were also completely unnecessary.

 

Was there a point of no return? If so, when was that? If not, what could TM do tomorrow to change course for the better?

[nfreeman]

 

 

What center moved that would truly have addressed our issues there? I count one: Seguin. Am I forgetting any top line center who moved?

 

Mike Richards, Jeff Carter, Brayden Schenn.

 

[Hoss]

Mike Richards, Jeff Carter, Brayden Schenn.

 

Jason Spezza.

[Weave]

Was there a point of no return? If so, when was that? If not, what could TM do tomorrow to change course for the better?

 

I think Lucic-Miller is about the point of no return.

[nfreeman]

 

 

. We really didn't have any great young prospects from trading high picks during the post-lockout runs, had huge questions about the value of the core, and had lost huge assets to FA. There were no trades to be made.

 

But if this wasn't inevitable, then it's easier to hate it, and I totally understand that.

 

No. They traded a few 2nd-rounders but still had most of their high draft picks. Any dearth of good prospects was the result of poor drafting by Darcy.

 

And there were plenty of good players that got traded between 2007 and 2011. Darcy just didn't want to pay the price.

[darksabre]

 

 

I did not have what I wanted in 2010. There were a number of us calling that team seriously flawed. Back then there were plenty of us that identified center ice and leadership as two areas in need of immediate attention. 08-09 was the time to get it right,

 

I won't support this tank. I just won't. It is wrong. Put in place by a GM trying to cover his @ss. And it goes against everything that sports is about.

 

Nailed it. Really this all starts with Regier gutting the team of leadership. 06-07 ended in what should have been a troubling manner. 08-09 should have set things in motion. We wouldn't be stuck in this tank right now if Regier doesn't completely screw this team up on Black Sunday. He had a chance to fix his mistake before it was too late but he didn't.

[LastPommerFan]

Mike Richards, Jeff Carter, Brayden Schenn.

 

Columbus was able to trade for Carter because they had Voracek (7th overall) and the 8th overall pick in 2011. They were able to make that trade because they were worse than us.

 

Adding Richards and Schenn to the list dosn't work because it was a center for center trade, and as has already been established, we didn't have any centers.

[nfreeman]

 

 

Jason Spezza.

 

True but I think GCOE's and TBPhD's (incorrect) point was that nobody good was traded in the 2007-2011 period -- ie that might've obviated the need for a complete tear down.

[LastPommerFan]

No. They traded a few 2nd-rounders but still had most of their high draft picks. Any dearth of good prospects was the result of poor drafting by Darcy.

 

And there were plenty of good players that got traded between 2007 and 2011. Darcy just didn't want to pay the price.

 

Yes, Zagrapan-Persson was a pretty miserable streak. But additionally, we didn't draft in the first round in 2007, and didn't pick in the second round in 2009, 2010, nor 2011. Both hurt the old talent balance sheet for certain. At the end of the day, we didn't have enough resources to make the quick rebuild after probably the summer of 2008, but certainly after the summer of 2010.

[nfreeman]

 

 

I think Lucic-Miller is about the point of no return.

 

That was indeed a turning point in franchise history. I read GCOE's question, though, as when it became clear that a complete tear down was needed (perhaps you did too and Lucic-Miller is your answer).

 

My answer is that what we got last year and what we're getting this year was never necessary or the best choice. From TM's perspective, I can see taking over mid-year and being OK with finishing up the year in last place. But I think going for last again this year (although I'm far from convinced that was the plan) was, if intentional, a huge mistake.

 

My other point in this is that Darcy, having driven the team into a ditch, should not have been allowed to make the Pommer and Vanek trades and run the 2013 offseason.

[LastPommerFan]

That was indeed a turning point in franchise history. I read GCOE's question, though, as when it became clear that a complete tear down was needed (perhaps you did too and Lucic-Miller is your answer).

 

My answer is that what we got last year and what we're getting this year was never necessary or the best choice. From TM's perspective, I can see taking over mid-year and being OK with finishing up the year in last place. But I think going for last again this year (although I'm far from convinced that was the plan) was, if intentional, a huge mistake.

 

My other point in this is that Darcy, having driven the team into a ditch, should not have been allowed to make the Pommer and Vanek trades and run the 2013 offseason.

 

What is the downside to the teams future of tanking again this year?

 

(full marks for the comment on darcy and trading Pommer and Vanek, although, I'm not sure you could get a better return for Vanek than Moulson, a first, and a second. That was somehow both a hockey trade and a futures trade.)

[nfreeman]

 

 

Yes, Zagrapan-Persson was a pretty miserable streak. But additionally, we didn't draft in the first round in 2007, and didn't pick in the second round in 2009, 2010, nor 2011. Both hurt the old talent balance sheet for certain. At the end of the day, we didn't have enough resources to make the quick rebuild after probably the summer of 2008, but certainly after the summer of 2010.

 

In 2007 we went from the last pick in the 1st round to the 1st pick in the 2nd round -- no real change in asset value. And in 2010 our high-value prospects included Pysyk, Kassian, Adam, Myers, Ennis, Brennan, Butler and McNabb.

 

Philly and Montreal have both bottomed out in recent years, retooled quickly and gone on to deep playoff runs. It doesn't need to be as bad as it is now for the Sabres, nor for as long.

 

 

 

What is the downside to the teams future of tanking again this year?

 

Well, in addition to wasting a year of everyone's life, there is a high risk that everyone gets used to losing and it becomes part of everyone's subconscious expectations. You may or

may not believe (as I do) that losing begets losing, but perhaps you will agree that the same teams seem to cluster in the bottom of the standings every year.

[Weave]

As Drane pointed out earlier today in another thread, the culture on this team is toxic. Another year of bottom feeding seems to be increasing that toxicity.

 

 

This was never an idea that was good for anything except potentially buying darcy more time.

[LastPommerFan]

In 2007 we went from the last pick in the 1st round to the 1st pick in the 2nd round -- no real change in asset value. And in 2010 our high-value prospects included Pysyk, Kassian, Adam, Myers, Ennis, Brennan, Butler and McNabb.

 

Philly and Montreal have both bottomed out in recent years, retooled quickly and gone on to deep playoff runs. It doesn't need to be as bad as it is now for the Sabres, nor for as long.

 

 

 

Well, in addition to wasting a year of everyone's life, there is a high risk that everyone gets used to losing and it becomes part of everyone's subconscious expectations. You may or

may not believe (as I do) that losing begets losing, but perhaps you will agree that the same teams seem to cluster in the bottom of the standings every year.

 

Interesting that you bring up the Flyers, since we handed them a key cog in their return to playoff greatness. for free.

 

But in general, these teams were recent playoff winners, not 7 years removed from a playoff series victory. And neither let key pieces walk for nothing. They had the assets to make a quick rebuild.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Glass Case Of Emotion

[Crusader1969]

This is a telling time for GMTM. If he is serious about competing for a playoff spot and not tanking, he has to make a trade. Getting shut out twice in your building necessitates this. He's not going to fire TN. So who he trades will be interesting. He needs to hit the "core" (I know, bad phrase) to show he is serious. Someone like Stafford, Ennis or Myers. Anyone else and it's just a token "shake up" trade and shows he's into the tank.

these are the posts that really make me laugh. you really think he wants to compete for a playoff spot? this might come as a shock but YES he is into the tank and is a genius in my books.

 

cant wait to wake up Nov 1 and see the Sabres at 1-10

Edited October 20, 2014 by Crusader1969

[Johnny DangerFace]

But I think going for last again this year (although I'm far from convinced that was the plan) was, if intentional, a huge mistake.

 

 

This is what I don't follow. What else was he suppose to do this offseason? He brought in leadership, traded for Gorges, signed one of the top wingers on the market in Moulson. So he was active in free agency, is going to give young players a chance on this roster (reinhart, ristolainen, deslauriers, and soon pysyk). This was a very very bad team entering the offseason. He improved it the best he could in free agency. Was he suppose to trade prospects for 30+ year old vets?

 

A rebuilding, bad team, just doesn't come out of a rebuild in one offseason, it takes time.

 

 

 

I agree that if they are intentionally trying to lose, thats a bad thing, as it takes while to rebuild, so you want to start asap. I just don't think this is what is happening, I'm not sure you think that either

Edited October 20, 2014 by Numark

[TrueBlueGED]

Mike Richards, Jeff Carter, Brayden Schenn.

 

For one, what GCoE said. Secondly, I'm positive adding Brayden Schenn does not solve our center problem. What has he shown to demonstrate he's a top liner on a good team?

 

As far as Richards and Carter go, I don't think we had the pieces. But aside from that, I think they're flourishing in that secondary role, and outside of that one run to the Finals, struggled to consistently raise their team above the pack. If we had a lineup of them, plus Roy in his prime, Vanek and Pommer...then we're getting somewhere. But I can't imagine we'd have been able to acquire them while also keeping our best players, because our prospect pool was thin at the time and lacked anything resembling top-end talent.

 

As an aside, if we had managed to acquire Richards we'd be totally screwed now that he's morphed into a really expensive 4 liner :P

[bunomatic]

This is what I don't follow. What else was he suppose to do this offseason? He brought in leadership, traded for Gorges, signed one of the top wingers on the market in Moulson. So he was active in free agency, is going to give young players a chance on this roster (reinhart, ristolainen, deslauriers, and soon pysyk). This was a very very bad team entering the offseason. He improved it the best he could in free agency. Was he suppose to trade prospects for 30+ year old vets?

 

The a rebuilding, bad team, just doesn't come out of a rebuild in one offseason, it takes time.

 

I agree on all of this.

[TheMatrix31]

these are the posts that really make me laugh. you really think he wants to compete for a playoff spot? this might come as a shock but YES he is into the tank and is a genius in my books.

 

cant wait to wake up Nov 1 and see the Sabres at 1-10

 

SMFH

[nfreeman]

This is what I don't follow. What else was he suppose to do this offseason? He brought in leadership, traded for Gorges, signed one of the top wingers on the market in Moulson. So he was active in free agency, is going to give young players a chance on this roster (reinhart, ristolainen, deslauriers, and soon pysyk). This was a very very bad team entering the offseason. He improved it the best he could in free agency. Was he suppose to trade prospects for 30+ year old vets?

 

A rebuilding, bad team, just doesn't come out of a rebuild in one offseason, it takes time.

 

I agree that if they are intentionally trying to lose, thats a bad thing, as it takes while to rebuild, so you want to start asap. I just don't think this is what is happening, I'm not sure you think that either

 

Good post, and I think you got me. I suppose in hindsight some higher-quality help on D probably was in order. TM probably thought between Benoit, Meszaros, Pysyk and McCabe he would get 1 or 2 respectable NHL defensemen -- and this still could prove to be the case.