Hoss Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 I'm not so sure championship pedigree means all that much in this discussion either. I skimmed through this quickly so I may have missed one, but by my math, there are only 7 superbowl winning QBs in this league right now. Even with Wilson on that list, it is a very old group. If we're going to use that as a criteria for judging a QB, it thins the herd incredibly quickly. edit: Make that 8 superbowl winning QBs. It's been so long that I actually missed Brady when counting those. I wasn't saying championship pedigree is a way to judge. I was just pointing out that the original post wasn't basing their whole argument on championships. They were just pointing out that the QBs named as having the jury still out on them have already solidified themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 I wasn't saying championship pedigree is a way to judge. I was just pointing out that the original post wasn't basing their whole argument on championships. They were just pointing out that the QBs named as having the jury still out on them have already solidified themselves. You missed the important "for me" in Swamp's post. That said, I'd agree with him on at least half his list. Newton is borderline and RG3 is about as questionable as possible right now. I can understand his questions about the other two. On those teams, they really just have to avoid tripping over their own feet and they are going to win games. Seattle and the 9ers were 1st and 3rd in points allowed last year, so clearly they've got a lot of other things working for them. I think what winds up causing some trouble for people in evaluating these guys is that we're not entirely sure how to judge this new breed of mobile quarterbacks. In terms of passing yardage, all of those guys are middle of the pack in the league. They don't exactly scream elite QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 They don't exactly scream elite QB. The discussion hasn't reached that mess yet. We're only talking about solidifying themselves as NFL starters. If we're going to move to elite then EJ can just sit this one out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 The discussion hasn't reached that mess yet. We're only talking about solidifying themselves as NFL starters. If we're going to move to elite then EJ can just sit this one out. Just like Brees was out of the "elite" discussion after his first season, right? It is too early to evaluate him, period. He could turn into Jim Kelly. He could turn into Jim Plunkett. He could turn into Jim Druckenmiller. We don't know yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dEnnis the Menace Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 Just like Brees was out of the "elite" discussion after his first season, right? It is too early to evaluate him, period. He could turn into Jim Kelly. He could turn into Jim Plunkett. He could turn into Jim Druckenmiller. We don't know yet. precisely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 Just like Brees was out of the "elite" discussion after his first season, right? It is too early to evaluate him, period. He could turn into Jim Kelly. He could turn into Jim Plunkett. He could turn into Jim Druckenmiller. We don't know yet. Again, guys like Kelly aren't relevant. Drew Brees seems to be the only somewhat fair pushback. Kelly was a completely different situation at a completely different time. Can't remember who said it or how it was said but it's a fair point -- teams don't draft newborn children. They have resumes coming into the league and Manuel's doesn't even approach that of Kelly and others who showed the signs of a franchise signal caller prior to the draft. Manuel was solid but never great in college. Which further confuses me when I think about him being drafted in the first round. I'd like to see what the question was prior to this because this answer seems... Strange. @ZachZaidman: Manuel on Bills signing Orton: "I don't even know how much he got paid." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 Again, guys like Kelly aren't relevant. Drew Brees seems to be the only somewhat fair pushback. Kelly was a completely different situation at a completely different time. Can't remember who said it or how it was said but it's a fair point -- teams don't draft newborn children. They have resumes coming into the league and Manuel's doesn't even approach that of Kelly and others who showed the signs of a franchise signal caller prior to the draft. Manuel was solid but never great in college. Which further confuses me when I think about him being drafted in the first round. I'd like to see what the question was prior to this because this answer seems... Strange. @ZachZaidman: Manuel on Bills signing Orton: "I don't even know how much he got paid." I really just wanted to use three guys named Jim. If I use Aaron Rodgers, Alex Smith, and Tim Couch, does that sufficiently crystallize the ###### point for you? EJ could be great, he could be adequate, he could be a bust. WE DON'T KNOW YET and it doesn't matter what examples anyone uses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 I really just wanted to use three guys named Jim. If I use Aaron Rodgers, Alex Smith, and Tim Couch, does that sufficiently crystallize the ###### point for you? EJ could be great, he could be adequate, he could be a bust. WE DON'T KNOW YET and it doesn't matter what examples anyone uses. Saying "we don't know" is just a lazy tactic when debating a topic. Especially sports. We don't know pretty much anything. Does that mean we shouldn't talk about it or express our opinion on the matter? No. That's why we're here on a discussion board... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 Someone tag in, please. I'm getting tired and I need the water bottle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 I really just wanted to use three guys named Jim. If I use Aaron Rodgers, Alex Smith, and Tim Couch, does that sufficiently crystallize the ###### point for you? EJ could be great, he could be adequate, he could be a bust. WE DON'T KNOW YET and it doesn't matter what examples anyone uses. Just to be clear, this afternoon's issue that he gets confrontational on is your choice of examples of good, average, and crappy QBs. It's hard to keep track of these things as it is always something new on an hourly basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dEnnis the Menace Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 Saying "we don't know" is just a lazy tactic when debating a topic. Especially sports. We don't know pretty much anything. Does that mean we shouldn't talk about it or express our opinion on the matter? No. That's why we're here on a discussion board... Having a discussion is precisely what we're trying to do. You keep moving the line however on what we are exactly talking about, and telling us what is and is not relevant based on your current mood. This is why I stepped out of the conversation this morning. and then Eleven drew me back in. We are just trying to point out that the kid has barely had a career yet, and a few of you insist it's already over. Most QBs come into their own after 2 full years in the NFL. We're not saying EJ is Kelly or Brady, etc. We're just asking to give the kid a little more time. Everyone knew and admitted coming out of college he was a project, and wasn't supposed to start his first year. He was thrust into it. The fact that he already has better stats than 3 or 4 of our last 5 QBs is enough for me to give him at least this season. Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, we are stuck in another year of mediocrity with the Bills. They're just not bad enough (see: JAX, HOU, OAK, etc) to get a top 5 pick this year. Even if Manuel plays a full season this year at last years pace, it's still Fitz numbers equivalent or better. I'll take that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 We are just trying to point out that the kid has barely had a career yet, and a few of you insist it's already over. Most QBs come into their own after 2 full years in the NFL. We're not saying EJ is Kelly or Brady, etc. We're just asking to give the kid a little more time. Everyone knew and admitted coming out of college he was a project, and wasn't supposed to start his first year. He was thrust into it. The fact that he already has better stats than 3 or 4 of our last 5 QBs is enough for me to give him at least this season. I don't disagree with you, I just hate how far our standards have fallen, specifically with the bolded line. At this point, I don't even remember what good QB play looks like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dEnnis the Menace Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 I don't disagree with you, I just hate how far our standards have fallen, specifically with the bolded line. At this point, I don't even remember what good QB play looks like. Frankly...I'd have to go back to Flutie to remember :( I agree though, that our standards have fallen, but if he's our best shot since Bledsoe or even before that, then I'll play that hand any day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 (edited) Drew Bledsoe was the last good QB this team had. For one season, at least. Edited September 3, 2014 by Tankalicious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 I don't disagree with you, I just hate how far our standards have fallen, specifically with the bolded line. At this point, I don't even remember what good QB play looks like. I honestly think that is one of the issues Buffalo fans and media have, they were told EJ was good so some are still holding on to that and since they don't remember what good actually looks like they think maybe Ej can be good. He had accuracy problems on longer throws in college. He was criticized for his reads or lack there of. These things are still happening. I will be as nice as I can and give him this season but I haven't seen more than a couple of drives that make me think he has some skill. Frankly 2 drives out of 20 isn't good enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 Dilfer has no relevance in this discussion. The original post mentioned how the modern QB have the talent and the championship pedigree. Dilfer only had the latter. How is dilfer not relevant? Wildcard mentioned deep playoff runs. Dilfer, like wilson, won a championship on the back of a generationally good defense. It tells me nothing about how good he is or will becomes. We all know your mind is made up on EJ. Mine isn't. I guess we'll find out soon enough who is right. I'm just glad that I haven't already thrown this season in the shitter before it even started like you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 Saying "we don't know" is just a lazy tactic when debating a topic. Especially sports. We don't know pretty much anything. Does that mean we shouldn't talk about it or express our opinion on the matter? No. That's why we're here on a discussion board... Refusing to make a long term prediction based on a very small sample of data isn't lazy, it's smart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 Fwiw, Greg Cosell NFL film junkie and scout-pundit likes what he's seeing out of Geno Smith, and has the following take on EJ (sad face): There are some concerns about Buffalo quarterback EJ Manuel. He has a tendency to perceive pressure and move too quickly, and he can be erratic with his ball location. Manuel’s lower and upper body mechanics are not integrated at all, which is why he’s not a natural thrower. He continues to pick up his back foot before he delivers the ball, which means his weight is on his front foot and you can’t drive the ball like that. At this point Manuel must be tightly managed and controlled with defined reads and throws. You must remove all gray areas that require progression reading and vision because he lacks vision. He doesn’t see things quickly or with clarity. He does not know where to look based on the coverage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 Drew Bledsoe was the last good QB this team had. For one season, at least. Drew Bledsoe was a washed up hack by the time he got here. He was not good. Fwiw, Greg Cosell NFL film junkie and scout-pundit likes what he's seeing out of Geno Smith, and has the following take on EJ (sad face): There are some concerns about Buffalo quarterback EJ Manuel. He has a tendency to perceive pressure and move too quickly, and he can be erratic with his ball location. Manuel’s lower and upper body mechanics are not integrated at all, which is why he’s not a natural thrower. He continues to pick up his back foot before he delivers the ball, which means his weight is on his front foot and you can’t drive the ball like that. At this point Manuel must be tightly managed and controlled with defined reads and throws. You must remove all gray areas that require progression reading and vision because he lacks vision. He doesn’t see things quickly or with clarity. He does not know where to look based on the coverage. I agree with his sentiment. EJ has looked sluggish on his reads and that's what is killing him right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjag Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 I think EJ was a product of a powerhouse program that covered up a lot of his short comings. When you level the playing field or tilt it, he gets exposed for what he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 Drew Bledsoe was a washed up hack by the time he got here. He was not good. 62%, 4359 yards, 24 TDs and 15 INTs. Not good. :P that's the last good quarterbacking season this team has seen. I think EJ was a product of a powerhouse program that covered up a lot of his short comings. When you level the playing field or tilt it, he gets exposed for what he is. They won it all the year after he left due largely to great QB play. Hmmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom webster Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 62%, 4359 yards, 24 TDs and 15 INTs. Not good. :P that's the last good quarterbacking season this team has seen. They won it all the year after he left due largely to great QB play. Hmmm. And Tennessee won it the year after Peyton left with Tee Martin. Not so much hmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 And Tennessee won it the year after Peyton left with Tee Martin. Not so much hmmm Still some hmmm there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom webster Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 Still some hmmm there... And how about a little more hmmm. Check out FSU 'a record the 4 or. 5 years prior to EJ . If one were so inclined, they could argue that EJ was a catalyst in their return to super power status and not a mere passenger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 And how about a little more hmmm. Check out FSU 'a record the 4 or. 5 years prior to EJ . If one were so inclined, they could argue that EJ was a catalyst in their return to super power status and not a mere passenger Likely more of the obvious change from a long-time coach to a new voice. The QB play is the reason Florida went from consistent contender for BCS Bowls to BCS Championship winners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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