So What Really Does Stop This Team From being Good

[Taro T]

Because training camp hasn't started. Once that opens we can spend 5 pages discussing how changing the color of skate laces is somehow relevant to cold the beer will be from Conehead.

That's an irrelevant question - one should never buy from Conehead.

[dudacek]

So we are back to building another excuse for Darcy: Pegula's Paradigm of Puppetry.

[LGR4GM]

So we are back to building another excuse for Darcy: Pegula's Paradigm of Puppetry.

Darcy is mediocre at recognizing pro talent. He has an inability to stand up to owners. His risk taking is very limited and so he shelters himself from bad moves and also great moves.

[Doohickie]

You know what, I don't think you are completely crazy. Do I think they're a lock for a playoff spot? No chance, but at the same time it would not shock me.

 

This is me. Every year.

[Huckleberry]

Let's not pretend ballsy moves lead to success. For every Boston you have a Philly, where Holmgren has managed to ballsy-move a Cup contender into just another average team. Besides, the story on the Seguin trade is not written yet.

 

Look, I get that people want some more aggression after so long with Regier's relative passivity. I crave for him to "do something" too, but I think there has to be some happy medium between doing almost nothing and "omg look at the balls that team has!" I'd prefer Darcy to be replaced with a more proactive GM, but I don't want Paul Holmgren, Jr.

 

I fully agree

[Doohickie]

You ever leave fish in the fridge for the weekend and forget about it when you go out of town? When you get back and open the fridge, the stench is overwhelming. Just because you identify that it was spoiled fish that hung around too long and you throw it out, that doesn't stop the stench from seeping into the vents, fans, ice, and all the other foods. Unless you throw everything out, defrost the entire thing and scrub it down, then put about 6 boxes of baking soda in it.....you are going to be gagging for months when you open that fridge. Want a nice tomato salad? A cold glass of lemonade? Scrambled eggs? Good luck.....they are all ruined just from being trapped in the same close confines for so long with the rotten fish. The Sabres not only went away for the weekend and left 5 pounds of perch in the fridge.....they went away for years. It's the same fridge, and just because some want to give kudos to the GM for throwing out the bad fish, one by one, the stench is so deeply entrenched in everything that it is almost a lost cause to cook anything at this point. The stench is so bad that you can smell it in the bedroom if you leave the door open too long. ............until there is a new fridge with entirely new inventory.....or the current fridge is scrubbed thoroughly and not just a token box of baking soda put inside....the long lingering effects of this debacle will have us gagging for years. Huge mistakes were made, and the course of trying to correct those have been too little too late.

 

I really like this analogy.

 

I don't. In fact, it made me slit my wrists and bleed out like Zednick.

 

Another take, as observed in the forum index:

 

 

[waldo]

first pair and top six skill levels..

[deluca67]

Accountability! This franchise goes nowhere until they stop rewarding mediocrity.

[bunomatic]

Accountability! This franchise goes nowhere until they stop rewarding mediocrity.

 

And this.

[nfreeman]

EDIT: I will concede one point. As PA has pointed out, Darcy's public statements (sorry, I can't find them -- I recall hearing the interview on WGR when I was driving to a kid's soccer game, though) from this year indicated that in/around September 2011 Regier was reluctant to give Myers the sort of term and money that the team gave to him and that he saw Myers' struggles over the last 1.5 seasons as confirmation that there's a great risk in awarding that sort of contract to a young player. It is not unreasonable to hear Darcy as intimating that Peguala pushed to give the young man a boatload of kigash over Darcy's objection.

 

But even it this was TP's decision, foisted on a reluctant DR -- so what? Could it really have retarded Myers' growth that much? What is the spread between Myers' performance with the contract he would've received from most teams and his performance with the one he got? I have a hard time believing it was that great.

 

More to the point -- are we making excuses for DR because his owner allegedly forced him to lock up a talented young defenseman? Did Myers being locked up prevent DR from making other moves? Was DR going to trade Myers for a difference-maker, but was prevented from doing so because of Myers' contract? I find that highly implausible.

 

I don't think it's realistic to blame 2 years of team-wide suckitude on the Myers contract -- or the Leino contract either for that matter. And while I didn't read the entire Trial of TP thread, I don't think anyone at any time has ever come close to showing (or even suggesting, for that matter) that there was a personnel move that DR wanted to make that was vetoed by TP. There's a big difference between pushing to sign Leino and refusing to sign Drury, Briere, McKee, Grier, Dumont and Soupy.

 

DR has had 2 full seasons (albeit one of them strike-shortened -- but it was shortened for every other team too) and three full offseasons with the deepest pockets in the NHL to work with. The team has gotten worse every year.

 

Darcy must go.

 

That's what keeps me up at night. It's one of those "Terry doesn't know what he doesn't know" deals. He needs to realize this, step out of the process and be smart enough to hire an intermediary, a Scotty Bowman for example, to find the front office talent to really turn the franchise around. The odds of all of those things happening given what we know about Pegula are slim to none. It's really not about winning a Cup, I'm convinced of that now.

 

What in the world could it possibly be about? To get past the velvet ropes at WNY nightclubs?

 

He might enjoy being part of the decision-making process, and he might view this as a fun toy -- i.e. not as the life-and-death matter many of us view it as -- but there is no question that he craves a cup. He just thinks he's better equipped to help get the team there than you think he is.

[billsrcursed]

So just to make sure I'm not interpreting this wrong, because a guy (who, by the way is PAYING for the players being brought in) expresses his opinion on a player, he's meddling to the point that it's negatively impacting the franchise?

 

I'm sorry, but until I see something where Pegula says, "No, you'll draft this kid", or "No, you'll be taking this free agent instead", I don't buy it. In fact, shame on Darcy for not saying, "Thanks for your input, here's our decision", if in fact it played out any other way.

 

An opinion is not an order until the person receiving the opinion refuses to explore other options.

[deluca67]

So just to make sure I'm not interpreting this wrong, because a guy (who, by the way is PAYING for the players being brought in) expresses his opinion on a player, he's meddling to the point that it's negatively impacting the franchise?

 

I'm sorry, but until I see something where Pegula says, "No, you'll draft this kid", or "No, you'll be taking this free agent instead", I don't buy it. In fact, shame on Darcy for not saying, "Thanks for your input, here's our decision", if in fact it played out any other way.

 

An opinion is not an order until the person receiving the opinion refuses to explore other options.

Do we know Regier "explores other options?" He inactivity over the years would seem to indicate otherwise. As one of the posters that has been around for the long haul, I have seen similar complaints that are levied against Pegula levied against the Rigas family and Larry Quinn. The only difference being that people want to like Terry Pegula because he has marketed himself as one of us so posters are more willing to defend Pegula.

[billsrcursed]

Do we know Regier "explores other options?" He inactivity over the years would seem to indicate otherwise. As one of the posters that has been around for the long haul, I have seen similar complaints that are levied against Pegula levied against the Rigas family and Larry Quinn. The only difference being that people want to like Terry Pegula because he has marketed himself as one of us so posters are more willing to defend Pegula.

 

Even if he doesn't, wouldn't that then be his fault and not Terry's?

 

And I don't like Terry for his fan-like behavior, I accept Terry as the owner of the Sabres and a guy willing to spend money when needed on both the Sabres and the city of Buffalo.

[That Aud Smell]

But even it this was TP's decision, foisted on a reluctant DR -- so what? Could it really have retarded Myers' growth that much?

 

I think so, yes.

 

I don't think anyone at any time has ever come close to showing (or even suggesting, for that matter) that there was a personnel move that DR wanted to make that was vetoed by TP.

 

Quite true. I can't recall the degrees that we sketched out, but I think I became convinced that he was probably committing 3rd degree meddling (having a real hand in identifying the kinds of players the team should be drafting -- probably helping to tip the balance when the choice is whittled down to a few prospects). Then X came in and made a strong case that "meddling" wasn't really a "crime" at all and we wound up kicking around whether and to what extent all or most owners of pro sports franchises exert some direct influence on their teams' rosters and such.

 

Darcy must go.

 

Agreed. If nothing else, having Darcy move on would provide the deepest of Pegula's skeptics the "control" that would allow their theories to be tested.

 

What in the world could it possibly be about?

 

The satisfaction and gratification of his own ego. And it could be about that without him even really being aware of it -- lots of rich and powerful people aren't terribly self-aware. I'm not saying it's so. Just that it could be.

 

So just to make sure I'm not interpreting this wrong, because a guy (who, by the way is PAYING for the players being brought in) expresses his opinion on a player, he's meddling to the point that it's negatively impacting the franchise?

 

I think you are interpreting it wrong, at least insofar as I've tried to state it.

 

An opinion is not an order until the person receiving the opinion refuses to explore other options.

 

A strongly worded opinion from your boss needn't be an order in order to have the force of one. If you wanna please the man in charge, you may bend or sway to his wishes and desires. Again, I'm not saying that's precisely how it goes down -- I have no way of knowing that (nor do any of us (except maybe for Ted Black, who I'm convinced stops by here from time to time -- Hi, Ted!)).

[LTS]

That's an irrelevant question - one should never buy from Conehead.

 

I fail to see how that stops a discussion thread of 5 pages or more on this forum. :)

[PASabreFan]

The satisfaction and gratification of his own ego. And it could be about that without him even really being aware of it -- lots of rich and powerful people aren't terribly self-aware. I'm not saying it's so. Just that it could be.

 

I think Terry has a whopper of an ego. He has said he built East Resources by identifying and hiring good people. He has said several times what a good person Darcy is. The Sabres, then, become a test of whether the Pegula Way can produce a championship — and that's why I say it's not really about winning a Cup, it's about winning a Cup with Terry leading the way.

 

So what's the problem? The problem for me is that I have zero faith that Terry has anything to add to the process of winning a Cup, besides his writing those checks. I think he has less to add than the average regular poster on this board. Even worse, I think his involvement has hurt and continues to hurt the franchise. I'm waiting for him to realize this and step back, but I doubt that day will come. He'll get frustrated and sell the team or hand it off to his kids before that ever happens.

 

Labatt had the classic signature where Rene Robert asks Larry Quinn how as a developer he's qualified to run a hockey team. I'm waiting for someone of influence in the Buffalo hockey world to ask the oil and gas man the same question.

[billsrcursed]

A strongly worded opinion from your boss needn't be an order in order to have the force of one. If you wanna please the man in charge, you may bend or sway to his wishes and desires. Again, I'm not saying that's precisely how it goes down -- I have no way of knowing that (nor do any of us (except maybe for Ted Black, who I'm convinced stops by here from time to time -- Hi, Ted!)).

 

So maybe Darcy is too much of a "yes" man, which would then explaing why Terry kept and is keeping him around? Hmmm....

[apuszczalowski]

What in the world could it possibly be about? To get past the velvet ropes at WNY nightclubs?

 

He might enjoy being part of the decision-making process, and he might view this as a fun toy -- i.e. not as the life-and-death matter many of us view it as -- but there is no question that he craves a cup. He just thinks he's better equipped to help get the team there than you think he is.

Hydrofracking in WNY!

Up until Uncle Terry came to town on his white horse, open shirt and long flowing blonde hair to distract us all, I'm sure many would have looked at his business as a negative, something hurting the environment and possibly causing health issues. He comes into town and has the area falling in love with him cause he promises their sports team championships, and builds a few nice things for them to enjoy and next thing you know no one has problems with him Hydrofracking their back yards and turning their drinking water flammable.............

 

So maybe Darcy is too much of a "yes" man, which would then explaing why Terry kept and is keeping him around? Hmmm....

I've said for years he is nothing but a puppet. won't stand up to the higher ups and tell them that he needs X or Y to build a winning team, he just takes orders from them and does what they tell him to do with the hopes it will allow him to keep his job

[LGR4GM]

Hydrofracking in WNY!

Up until Uncle Terry came to town on his white horse, open shirt and long flowing blonde hair to distract us all, I'm sure many would have looked at his business as a negative, something hurting the environment and possibly causing health issues. He comes into town and has the area falling in love with him cause he promises their sports team championships, and builds a few nice things for them to enjoy and next thing you know no one has problems with him Hydrofracking their back yards and turning their drinking water flammable.............

 

I've said for years he is nothing but a puppet. won't stand up to the higher ups and tell them that he needs X or Y to build a winning team, he just takes orders from them and does what they tell him to do with the hopes it will allow him to keep his job

Fracking is the devil and considering the Great and the Finger Lakes reside in NY fracking is 10x more the devil.

 

Yes, that is exactly the issue with Darcy Regier, he lacks the ability to say "NO. That will not work we are doing this." He is and always will be predominately a yes man.

[apuszczalowski]

Fracking is the devil and considering the Great and the Finger Lakes reside in NY fracking is 10x more the devil.

 

Yes, that is exactly the issue with Darcy Regier, he lacks the ability to say "NO. That will not work we are doing this." He is and always will be predominately a yes man.

I prefer puppet

[That Aud Smell]

So maybe Darcy is too much of a "yes" man, which would then explaing why Terry kept and is keeping him around? Hmmm....

 

Maybe. I'd need more information before I judged one way or the other. IMO, people who suggest that they know this about him, of him are overstating their position.

 

Yes, that is exactly the issue with Darcy Regier, he lacks the ability to say "NO. That will not work we are doing this." He is and always will be predominately a yes man.

 

Hydrofracking in WNY!

 

This is too tinfoil hat for me.

[nfreeman]

Hydrofracking in WNY!

Up until Uncle Terry came to town on his white horse, open shirt and long flowing blonde hair to distract us all, I'm sure many would have looked at his business as a negative, something hurting the environment and possibly causing health issues. He comes into town and has the area falling in love with him cause he promises their sports team championships, and builds a few nice things for them to enjoy and next thing you know no one has problems with him Hydrofracking their back yards and turning their drinking water flammable.............

 

There aren't enough voters who are Sabres fans (or for that matter voters who live in WNY) to make a difference in the state-level determination over whether to allow fracking.

 

Fracking is the devil and considering the Great and the Finger Lakes reside in NY fracking is 10x more the devil.

 

Digital man -- do you think wind and solar are going to power the world? Are you still holding out hope for cold fusion?

 

In the meantime, the US economy (or what's left of it, anyway) needs power.

[LGR4GM]

Digital man -- do you think wind and solar are going to power the world? Are you still holding out hope for cold fusion?

 

In the meantime, the US economy (or what's left of it, anyway) needs power.

Cold fusion doesn't work why would I hold out hope for that?

 

Electrostatic Confinement Fusion on the other hand, that may work and I do hope for that.

[IKnowPhysics]

I think ...I say...

 

...I have zero faith... I think ...I think ... I doubt ...

 

...I'm waiting ...

 

No concrete evidence, as always on this topic. Just thoughts, sayings, faith, doubts, and waiting.

 

I'd need more information before I judged one way or the other. IMO, people who suggest that they know this about him, of him are overstating their position.

 

 

I see more evidence that Pegula resembles the early days of Mike Ilitch's ownership. Ilitch "is an avid sports fan," is an enormous philanthropist, is attempting to help rebuild his city, tries to hire good hockey people to run his hockey team, but still takes an active role in its management, fueling up the jet and visiting free agents (he was 82 at the time for Suter there). He also spends a dickload of money on his teams, raising both the Red Wings and Tigers to the upper escheleons of the payroll lists. Of course he's been inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame and US Hockey Hall of Fame and has his and his family's name on multiple Stanley Cups (trivia: 4 of the 12 women's name on the Cup are his wife and their 3 daughters). He's so well respected and of good report, that when it was discovered that he owed Detroit $1.5M in taxes, Detroit's mayor was like "eh, whatever."

 

The early days of Ilitch's ownership don't look dissimilar:

At the time of the purchase, the team had made the playoffs only twice in the previous 15 seasons and was known as the “Dead Wings.” ...

In 1982, Mike Ilitch bought the Red Wings from Bruce Norris for $8 million USD, and eventually turned the team into a perennial contender for the Stanley Cup. After years of drafting top picks and grooming their young players, and with proper management and leadership, the Red Wings would become an elite NHL team.

While many would mark the team’s turnaround with the Yzerman draft, it actually began with Ilitch’s hiring of Jim Devellano.... He was at the helm for the Wings’ acquisition of several key building blocks, including the historic 1989 draft where the Red Wings hit the motherload, drafting Nick Lidstrom, Sergei Fedorov, and Vladimir Konstantinov in the 3rd, 4th, and 11th rounds respectively. He hired coaching legend Scotty Bowman in 1993, despite clamouring from others inside the organization who preferred Mike Keenan (who was a hot commodity at the time). He also helped mentor Ken Holland, now Red Wings GM since 1997, who has led the team into a period of sustained dominance which is unmatched by any team in the new millenium. Devellano was GM from 1982-1990, and has since served a variety of senior roles in the organization, including his current title of Senior Vice-President.

 

For years, the Red Wings’ strategy has been simple and effective, and particularly so since the dawn of the salary cap. They’ve hired excellent scouts and drafted well. In fact, it appears that they’ve identified arbitrage opportunities in scouting; since the North American market is saturated with scouts, they’ve focused on Europe, which is under-scouted by comparison.

 

And even Pegula's mantra of

mirrors Marian Ilitch's own: "Marian Ilitch's recipe: Work hard, use common sense, take a risk"

 

So for as little evidence exists that Pegula meddles, has a big ego, keeps Regier as a yes man, and all the other ###### that's festering around here, there's at least 10x more evidence that Pegula's trying to follow in the footsteps of Mike Ilitch. Frankly, while the current roster only gives me a meager amount of hope for this coming year, knowing that this guy is the owner gives me hope for the next ten years.

[PASabreFan]

MF-ColdFusion.wav