DOES ADAMS GET A GOALIE NOW?!

[JoeSchmoe]

21 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

If the point is that Adams should have got a better goalie then my answer is, fair enough. I think you judge results and thus far the goaltending results have not been good. But not every team in the league is 25th in expected goals against. 24 teams do better (so far this season). 
 

UPL won’t magically turn into Connor Hellebuyck. It doesn’t take magic to play better defensive hockey than we are playing. We can wish and hope for better goaltending or we can reduce the number of opportunities we give to other teams. 

Defense needs to be better. No question. Power is still learning and I expect him to be better by the end of the season. Our young F's are still learning to play on both sides of the puck as well. 

If we're playing UPL though, we have no chance. He done nothing but suck at the pro level. 

[Thorny]

3 hours ago, bob_sauve28 said:

Goalies are not easy to get. Tampa is using one of our cast offs now. There is no magic goalie tree to go pick a fresh new goalie

The fairy tale is that there wasn’t a reasonable upgrade to be found in 4 seasons 

Defies sensible logic 

That’s why he gets judged on the results of the position. Otherwise, he’s simply not amendable and the two options were either “wow he did great at addressing the position!” Or “he did poorly but we can’t have expected better” in which case there’s no reason to discuss anything. Close your browser and hope for the best. Like seriously 

Edited October 28, 2023 by Thorny

[PromoTheRobot]

13 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

How? Who is trading us a good goalie? The time to do that was the off-season.  

it’s crazy when you think about it.  KA got vets for the defense. He got a vet forward to add to the ones he already had.  However, for reasons known only to him, with Millions in cap space and a pipeline overflowing with forwards, he wouldn’t even entertain the notion of getting a proven netminder to protect our season.  

I'm going to hold my breath until someone trades us a Vezina winner.

[Thorny]

3 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Well, New Jersey has 3 on their roster right now.  Two are home grown prospects, both Schmid and Daws are their future and have looked very good in the AHL.  Something Levi has not experienced and UPL was maybe mediocre in.  

Venacek is the vet that they picked up for the price of a Conner Clifton contract.  Vanecek signed a 3 year deal when KA was messing with guys like Tokarski and Dell.   Vanecek is not viewed as a blocker, he is an enabler. 

As for your passionate  defense of Adams trying.  Trying means nothing without results.  Trying is good for school kids, but not good enough for executives in this business.  Adam’s job is to find players to help us win RIGHT NOW.   
 

As for injuries, they can and will happen.  They happened yesterday.  Injuries are why you make moves to get veteran depth. We have none.  New Jersey does though.  

When the guy who has managed to play 40 nhl games in a decade proves himself incapable of providing the Sabres with a sufficient amount of starts, that’s not chance 

[#freejame]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

The fairy tale is that there wasn’t a reasonable upgrade to be found in 4 seasons 

Defies sensible logic 

Com’mon, Thorny. You trying to tell me there’s other teams who have improved in net during that timeframe? 

[Thorny]

3 hours ago, Archie Lee said:

It would, honestly, require a Saros or a Hellebuyck level goalie for the Sabres to look like they have good goaltending.  If this team could just learn to commit to team defence and be offensively patient at times (not passive, just patient), we could have dragged 2 or 3 games to OT this year, we would have 2-4 more points in the standings and our goaltending would be fine (not great, just fine).  Until we stop being careless with the puck and being happy to just trade chances with the opposition, including in the 3rd period of tied games, this is just what it's going to look like. 

Per MoneyPuck, we are 25th in the league in expected goals against at 5v5 and in all situations.  Our expected goal differential in all situations is -3.  We are at -4.  Our goaltending has been far from great, but it has not been the issue.

It’s only “not an issue” if the goal is slightly below average 

Not a persuasive argument 

[GASabresIUFAN]

56 minutes ago, LTS said:

It wouldn't matter who Adams traded for Hellebuyck.  The point of the post you made was saying he hadn't done enough to overcome injuries to two goalies. That was what I was questioning.  If he had given up Rosen and Savoie for Hellebuyck then he'd not have them now to give up for a third goalie.

Your original post was focused on how many goalies the Sabres had that were "NHL" level.  Any my question was, you can go get two goalies that are NHL level, both can still get injured, and you'd still be in this spot.

 

You are talking quantity, I'm talking quality.  I've been advocating for months to pair Levi with one proven NHL veteran goalie.  Instead KA gave us Levi and 2 AHL quality goalies on his NHL roster.  Once Levi got hurt, the choices in goal became 4 AHL quality goalies.  Who cares who is on the NHL roster, none of UPL, Comrie, Tokarski or Cooley are good enough to carry this team in case of injury.  Why are we in this position?  Easy KA has refused to invest in the position and it's destroying his rebuild.

Edited October 28, 2023 by GASabresIUFAN

[Pimlach]

3 hours ago, LTS said:

It wouldn't matter who Adams traded for Hellebuyck.  The point of the post you made was saying he hadn't done enough to overcome injuries to two goalies. That was what I was questioning.  If he had given up Rosen and Savoie for Hellebuyck then he'd not have them now to give up for a third goalie.

Your original post was focused on how many goalies the Sabres had that were "NHL" level.  Any my question was, you can go get two goalies that are NHL level, both can still get injured, and you'd still be in this spot.

 

New Jersey has 3 goalies.  You are pointing to Daws.  Let's just say he's as proven as Levi is at this point.  The argument of "promise" on a goaltender gets shot down around here in relation to Buffalo criteria so it doesn't hold for another team. So New Jersey has Schmid, who has part of 1 season with some success and has looked like crap this year.

1-0-1 in 3 games (so he must have been pulled) - .863 SV%, 4.07 GAA.  Whereas Comrie is at .914 and 2.45.  He's 1-1 and we know why he didn't finish the third game.

So Schmid had success last post season.  Binnington won a cup in his first year called up to St. Louis and has been crap since.  Bottom line, NJ has one goaltender in Vanacek who has been reasonably good and two unproven young goaltenders.

If Schmid gets to age 26 and is an NHL goaltender, then great, but he can't be anointed one yet.

My passionate defense of Adams?  I didn't defend Adams.  I asked what people expected him to do which was "more than trying".  We all know he tried and was unable to make it happen.  So i requested people to respond with what they perceived would have been good.  I'll freely admit that Adams could probably get any goaltender in the league if he wanted.  I am sure a trade of Thompson, Cozens, and Dahlin would get him ANYONE. But the question is, how stupid should Adams be to go acquire a goaltender?

No one ever seems to answer that question. They just critique the lack of result without analyzing what it would take to get the result they would be happy with.

And in the end?  it would not matter.  As I said, if Adams had been able to get two NHL goaltenders without giving up too much it would not change the fact that if BOTH were injured, you'd still be on #3.

Do you think the Devils Daws would hold up?  He might...but it's absolutely a crap shoot.  What makes Daws any better than Levi? 

But for the real kicker on here, let's analyze the TB Lightning, who has a goaltender who has played 7 games so far this year with a record of 4-1-2.  That goaltender has a .925 SV% and 2.56 GAA.  Hell, based on those stats that would be an NHL goaltender the Sabres could use... of course on this forum there was a whole lot of speculation that TBL would go get a goaltender and that they should be interested in Comrie or UPL... because people all know Jonas Johansson was not an NHL goaltender...

Oh.. but apparently he is.

The inevitable response is... oh but the Lightning are able to play better defense in front of him.  And if that's the argument you want to make then the natural counter-argument is.. and has been.. until the Sabres skaters play better defense in front of their goaltender... every goaltender will not look NHL ready.

 

You asked who else has 3 goalies. I answered your question.  NJ has 2 prospects and a vet.  I agree that neither prospect is as compelling as Levi, but that is what they have. I have no idea if they will make it someday either.  What is interesting , and it  blows the “Adams tried hard” argument apart, is that NJ added a NHL vet for a very low cost, at the same time we were looking for one. 
 

Last year, in the same lean market that Adams had,  Fitzgerald got Vanecek ($3.5 for 3 years) for a swap of seconds and a third.  Essentially he paid nothing.  They rode him for 53 games into the playoff, then they went with Schmid.  Vanecek is not the long term answer,  but they looked at him as an enabler, not a blocker.  I am using Adams words in relation to Ulmark - a blocker.   
 

So NJ has 2 prospects and a vet, with Schmid the closer prospect.  Now look  at Schmid and Daws AHL record, they are much better than UPLs.  Levi has no AHL record, which is a separate discussion on how to handle him. 
 

In that same off season Adam’s got Comrie who was more economical and less of a blocker, 2 years at $1.8M, but far less proven.  Look at the two teams results.  Look at their goaltending records. 
 

I don’t have to tell you who else Adams could have got, he could have got Vanecek last year, but he covets his picks and prospects way too much.   This off season there were deals to be made but since I’m not sitting in his office I can’t answer your question.   Its not my job and not anyone else’s job on this board.   
 

I don’t give credit to Executives for trying.  I give credit to Executives for performing.  Adam’s gets credit for a lot, but not for his handling of this teams goaltending.  
 

I agree that better team defense will help, your TBL example is a good one.  Granato is teaching it this year according to his own comments. Apparently part of a 3 year hockey system installation plan.  
 

off topic comment:   Mike Peca just got to learn how to put a new system in by working one off season with Laviolette.  

I have never, ever, heard of a NHL team teaching offense first because it’s harder.  I have heard of drafting offensive talent because it’s harder to get …  but you teach a complete hockey system that includes defensive zone play to all players and positions.  
 

There is no defense if you don’t play team defense.   
 

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by Pimlach

[Scottysabres]

Have you heard?

Adams got a goalie.

The names Cooley

Adams did a thing? I guess?

[GASabresIUFAN]

8 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

In that same off season Adam’s got Comrie who was more economical and less of a blocker, 2 years at $1.8M, but far less proven.  Look at the two teams results.  Look at their goaltending records. 

By the way, the year KA signed Comrie, 15 goalies changed teams many for very reasonable prices, including Adin Hill, Vanacek, Georgiev, Samsonov, and Gustavsson.   The funny thing is that KA was willing to trade a former 3rd rd pick for Stillman (who has since been cut) but wouldn’t use a similar asset to add goaltending. 

[bob_sauve28]

31 minutes ago, Thorny said:

The fairy tale is that there wasn’t a reasonable upgrade to be found in 4 seasons 

Defies sensible logic 

That’s why he gets judged on the results of the position. Otherwise, he’s simply not amendable and the two options were either “wow he did great at addressing the position!” Or “he did poorly but we can’t have expected better” in which case there’s no reason to discuss anything. Close your browser and hope for the best. Like seriously 

Two goalies got injured. There are decent NHL goalies and we were left with UPL. That's Adam's fault? 

[Flashsabre]

Who’s the goalie to save the day?

[bob_sauve28]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

Yes and no.  You need to have a real NHL #1 goalie to compete in this league.  You play that goalie while you are developing others.  You develop them in the AHL and bring them up for looks here and there.  You watch to see that goalie excel in the AHL first.  
See: Ryan Miller. 

You don’t rely on a 21 year old rookie with 7 games if professional experience to take you to the playoff.  If that works you are probably lucky.   

You don’t purposely “not block” a prospect and force him in before he is ready.   Make him beat out a NHL player to earn a NHL slot. 
 

Again, look at New Jersey, last season they hired a reasonably capable NHL vet at an affordable contract for three years while their two top goalie prospects develop.  He didn’t block anything, he actually helped them win last year. 

Yes, look at New Jersey, they didn't have their top two goalies injured. We did. Comrie is a decent goalie. We are NEVER going to find a Sororkin or Shesterkin easily. 

I don't like how they were playing Levi too much, but they are trying to make him into that Number 1 we do need. Saying we need a number one is easy, getting one in a market where everyone wants the same thing, is not easy. 

[sabremike]

We HAD an eventual Vezina winner but our brainless organization decided to be cute and hand him a "prove it" deal which ended up with him proving it and then walking to our division rival for nothing.

[Thorny]

21 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

Two goalies got injured. There are decent NHL goalies and we were left with UPL. That's Adam's fault? 

yes.

Comrie had played 40 games before this season over the course of a decade. Injuries have plagued him, as one of many facets that have plagued him in ever nailing down a sufficient body of work. When our tandem that’s never amounted to anything…fails to amount to anything.. that’s not chance 

If you place a risky bet that’s TELEGRAPHED AS RISKY before the season starts, and there isn’t some sort of unpredictable, act of god interference, we don’t get to go, “weelllllll dats just bad luck! What could poor Kevyn Adams have even done?’” 

4 seasons. 

[Thorny]

27 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

Yes, look at New Jersey, they didn't have their top two goalies injured. We did. Comrie is a decent goalie. We are NEVER going to find a Sororkin or Shesterkin easily. 

I don't like how they were playing Levi too much, but they are trying to make him into that Number 1 we do need. Saying we need a number one is easy, getting one in a market where everyone wants the same thing, is not easy. 

Isn’t availability a sizeable portion of being a decent goalie? Is the only thing that matters being a good goalie *in theory*? Why don’t the results matter? The *body of record*. The actual, cold, hard, data. What good is being a decent goalie if you don’t ever deliver decent results to consistency? He’s not a decent goalie: I’d be hard pressed to call a guy with 40 games entering into the season much of a goalie, at all

especially when we were ALWAYS LIKELY TO BE COUNTING on him for a lot of games because we also placed an INCREDIBLY risky bet with Levi! We were, as a rule, counting on abject greatness out of the gate from a 21 year old 

it’s negligent 

I talked about these exact possibilities all offseason, multiple times to the point of being told I was beating a dead horse

so, your options are: I’m a freaking prophetic genius…or, or, it was super freaking predictable.

I think it’s obvious which one is true 

hindsight need not apply. Tattoo that to my forehead at this point. It would be less painful than the straw grasping defence of the way Adams has dumped all over the goalie position 

Edited October 28, 2023 by Thorny

[Thorny]

26 minutes ago, sabremike said:

We HAD an eventual Vezina winner but our brainless organization decided to be cute and hand him a "prove it" deal which ended up with him proving it and then walking to our division rival for nothing.

Even AFTER that deal, the team negotiated with Ullmark for months on an extension and didn’t consummate it. Was Ullmark lying about his willingness to sign for 10 months? Of course not. There was a price we failed to meet and if the market was as impossibly navigable as the “who even was there?” crowd would suggest, meeting his price was a no brainer.

There is no where for Kevyn to hide, on this one. He’ll have to look to the standings to bail him out

[Archie Lee]

43 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

You asked who else has 3 goalies. I answered your question.  NJ has 2 prospects and a vet.  I agree that neither prospect is as compelling as Levi, but that is what they have. I have no idea if they will make it someday either.  What is interesting , and it  blows the “Adams tried hard” argument apart, is that NJ added a NHL vet for a very low cost, at the same time we were looking for one. 
 

Last year, in the same lean market that Adams had,  Fitzgerald got Vanecek ($3.5 for 3 years) for a swap of seconds and a third.  Essentially he paid nothing.  They rode him for 53 games into the playoff, then they went with Schmid.  Vanecek is not the long term answer,  but they looked at him as an enabler, not a blocker.  I am using Adams words in relation to Ulmark - a blocker.   
 

So NJ has 2 prospects and a vet, with Schmid the closer prospect.  Now look  at Schmid and Daws AHL record, they are much better than UPLs.  Levi has no AHL record, which is a separate discussion on how to handle him. 
 

In that same off season Adam’s got Comrie who was more economical and less of a blocker, 2 years at $1.8M, but far less proven.  Look at the two teams results.  Look at their goaltending records. 
 

I don’t have to tell you who else Adams could have got, he could have got Vanecek last year, but he covets his picks and prospects way too much.   This off season there were deals to be made but since I’m not sitting in his office I can’t answer your question.   Its not my job and not anyone else’s job on this board.   
 

I don’t give credit to Executives for trying.  I give credit to Executives for performing.  Adam’s gets credit for a lot, but not for his handling of this teams goaltending.  
 

I agree that better team defense will help, your TBL example is a good one.  Granato is teaching it this year according to his own comments. Apparently part of a 3 year hockey system installation plan.  
 

off topic comment:   Mike Peca just got to learn how to put a new system by working one off season with Laviolette.  

I have never, ever, heard of a NHL team teaching offense first because it’s harder.  I have heard of drafting offensive talent because it’s harder to get …  but you teach a complete hockey system that includes defensive zone play to all players and positions.  
 

There is no defense if you don’t play team defense.   
 

 

NJ were 3rd best in xga last year. We were 27th. I’m not convinced that Vanicek would have thrived here or that UPL/Comrie would have floundered there. 
 

For clarity, I’m not of the view that this is undoable. We are 8 games in and I think there is a clear effort to get the team to play better defence. I don’t think Eric Johnson makes the comment he made if coaches were not emphasizing D.  He was, in my view, imploring his teammates to take serious what is being preached. The lack of great results thus far does not mean it is not being stressed or that it won’t be successful as we get deeper into the season. 

[thewookie1]

6 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Even AFTER that deal, the team negotiated with Ullmark for months on an extension and didn’t consummate it. Was Ullmark lying about his willingness to sign for 10 months? Of course not. There was a price we failed to meet and if the market was as impossibly navigable as the “who even was there?” crowd would suggest, meeting his price was a no brainer.

There is no where for Kevyn to hide, on this one. He’ll have to look to the standings to bail him out

As I have said and will continue saying,  losing Ullmark was due to his ask in comparison to his availability not his talent. His max games started until going to Boston was a measly 32 games. He was injured every season he played with us for at least a month worth of time. He put up great stats but never stayed healthy enough to be a starter. Few GMs would offer 5/6x 6mil for a goalie you would  project playing less than half the starts due to injuries. 
 

In Boston he’s been unusually healthy; finding it out the why is vital. Was he just unlucky here? Is there something to do with the goalie coach and his training regiment? Is it merely less game wear and tear? These are the better questions. What exactly seems to be causing us to have goalies drop like flies every year?

[bob_sauve28]

30 minutes ago, Thorny said:

yes.

Comrie had played 40 games before this season over the course of a decade. Injuries have plagued him, as one of many facets that have plagued him in ever nailing down a sufficient body of work. When our tandem that’s never amounted to anything…fails to amount to anything.. that’s not chance 

If you place a risky bet that’s TELEGRAPHED AS RISKY before the season starts, and there isn’t some sort of unpredictable, act of god interference, we don’t get to go, “weelllllll dats just bad luck! What could poor Kevyn Adams have even done?’” 

4 seasons. 

Who were you hoping they could just ***** up and play for us? 

[Thorny]

13 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

As I have said and will continue saying,  losing Ullmark was due to his ask in comparison to his availability not his talent. His max games started until going to Boston was a measly 32 games. He was injured every season he played with us for at least a month worth of time. He put up great stats but never stayed healthy enough to be a starter. Few GMs would offer 5/6x 6mil for a goalie you would  project playing less than half the starts due to injuries. 
 

In Boston he’s been unusually healthy; finding it out the why is vital. Was he just unlucky here? Is there something to do with the goalie coach and his training regiment? Is it merely less game wear and tear? These are the better questions. What exactly seems to be causing us to have goalies drop like flies every year?

Probably a combination of rostering goalies who have played 40 games in their entire career and very oddly thinking they are capable of playing that in a single season and over-reliance on the goalies we do trust because we have zero confidence in the backup option because KA never brings in any capable goalies. Again, hindsight need not apply: even as hope sprung eternal this offseason and I was convinced by this board that Levi could be our Guy this season, I spoke about the importance of your number 2 goalie, about how it’s “much closer to a 1C / 2C situation, than a qb 1 / qb 2 situation” and how you NEED two good goalies not just 1 potential and a prayer. It is not a coincidence that Ullmark found health when they had a second reliable guy, ie, he found himself on a team that was actually interested in prioritizing results in the now:

Swayman played 37 games even during a Vezina winning season for Ullmark 

You are right that it’s a uniquely Buffalo situation, where you are mistaken is that it’s magic or “the league out to get us” as you’ve frequently opined. 

it’s merely ineptitude. The luck excuse literally evaporates the larger the sample size of “apparent randomness” gets. What that tells us is that it’s not random.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Thorny

[Scottysabres]

Is that guy named Helly something or other still available? I hear he was an OK gap filler.

Asking for my friend Kyven....

[Thorny]

11 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

Who were you hoping they could just ***** up and play for us? 

I’d rather just respond to this if a question, if I may:

Is your opinion that there hasn’t been a reasonable avenue for Adams to address the position since he came aboard? Actually asking.

[thewookie1]

3 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Probably a combination of rostering goalies who have played 40 games in their entire career and very oddly thinking they are capable of playing that in a single season and over-reliance on the goalies we do trust because we have zero confidence in the backup option because KA never brings in any capable goalies. Again, hindsight need not apply: even as hope sprung eternal this offseason and I was convinced by this board that Levi could be our Guy this season, I spoke about the importance of your number 2 goalie, about how it’s “much closer to a 1C / 2C situation, than a qb 1 / qb 2 situation” and how you NEED two good goalies not just 1 potential and a prayer. It is not a coincidence that Ullmark found health when they had a second reliable guy, ie, he found himself on a team that was actually interested in prioritizing results in the now:

Swayman played 37 games even during a Vezina winning season for Ullmark 

You are right that it’s a uniquely Buffalo situation, where you are mistaken is that it’s magic or “the league out to get us” as you’ve frequently opined. 

it’s merely ineptitude 

I’m not saying we didn’t need a solid back up, I’m trying to ask why our goalies, good or bad get injured constantly. We aren’t cycling goalies for purely skill issues; we seem to end up playing 5 or 6 a year due to injuries and that seems perplexing. 
 

 

[thewookie1]

Just now, Thorny said:

I’d rather just respond to this if a question, if I may:

Is your opinion that there hasn’t been a reasonable avenue for Adams to address the position since he came aboard? Actually asking.

Personally, this past offseason it’s pretty damn near it. Most goalies even worth a look stayed with their previous teams and acquiring Saros or Hellebuyck was likely ridiculous to even imagine.