The Stanley Cup Playoffs 2023: First Round GDT

[skaught]

1 minute ago, Taro T said:

Thought we were having a discussion, but one where we had differing points of view.  Nobody needs to "win" the "argument."

You say Eichel is in the 2nd round sooner than anybody else (well, specifically before a particular individual) and technically that's correct.  But personally see it more like the USPTO views patent applications filed on the same day - they don't look at which one was submitted earlier in the day, they both came in that day.  Any applications filed the day before another gets submitted are considered to be prior art over that later submitted application but those submitted earlier in the same day as another aren't.

Any team that makes it out of the 1st round this year got to the 2nd round at the same time IMHO.  Hopefully that other guy gets to the 2nd round significantly later than Jack did.  (Never is sufficiently later btw.  😉 )

Will try to refrain from replying to your posts if we don't see exactly eye to eye for a while.  (Won't promise it, but will try.)  Not sure why you see disagreement as an attack, but you seem to and really don't want to be contributing towards running good posters away from here.

🍻

You guys aren't even discussing the same point.

Thorny said Eichel is winning a series before Matthews.

You're talking about actually playing the second round.

IMO, you're both right.

[JohnC]

I pose this as a question more than a statement: Are we on the same track as New Jersey? We, like they have, had a number of high draft picks that in a relatively short time span have matured into good NHL players, with still a sizeable upside to their group. We may be a little behind them (maybe a year or so) but the roster building approach seems to be the very similar. If that is the case, then it augurs well for us. 

[That Aud Smell]

8 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I pose this as a question more than a statement: Are we on the same track as New Jersey? We, like they have, had a number of high draft picks that in a relatively short time span have matured into good NHL players, with still a sizeable upside to their group. We may be a little behind them (maybe a year or so) but the roster building approach seems to be the very similar. If that is the case, then it augurs well for us. 

I don't pay close enough attention to have an actual opinion on the matter, but I've heard it said and read it somewhere that NJ took a fookin' LEAP this past season that was out of proportion to what was expected and reasonably hoped for.

Still. I'd like to think so.

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, Pimlach said:

The coach shows no accountability or responsibility for himself.  The players will love that.  

What is easier.  Fire the coach or replace 15 players?  

Well that'll be the question won't it? It's not unlike the Sutter situation in Calgary. If they keep Bowness that'll clearly indicate that players have to go. I think the general view listening to HNIC etc. is that Winnipeg needs to change a LOT. 

I guess, in hindsight, Torts was right about DuBois for one. 

3 hours ago, GoPuckYourself said:

Morrissey

Ya, I think he might be the one guy they DON'T trade, but ya.

[PerreaultForever]

Nobody will want to hear this, but I just have to mention, Will Borgen is now 2nd pairing on Seattle's D.  

[DarthEbriate]

11 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Nobody will want to hear this, but I just have to mention, Will Borgen is now 2nd pairing on Seattle's D.  

4th among defenders in ice-time but only 16:48 per game. It's a Larsson-Dunn-Oleksiak and everybody else blue line. That said, he's been very solid.

The Concept of Borgen!

[JohnC]

11 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

I don't pay close enough attention to have an actual opinion on the matter, but I've heard it said and read it somewhere that NJ took a fookin' LEAP this past season that was out of proportion to what was expected and reasonably hoped for.

Still. I'd like to think so.

Jersey has recently had a number of high draft choices. I've watched a portion of a number of their games and come away very impressed. It seems as if in relatively short period of time this young core has demonstrated that they are already good, with plenty of potential to get even better. To state the obvious, their style of play is fast skating, full length skill hockey compared to their former clog the middle and suffocating defense that relied on muscle more than skill. Their former sluggish brand of hockey got them a lot of victories but from an entertainment value it was soul-crushing. 

They have accumulated a number of young players who are ready to play in this league. We also have accumulated a number of good young players who may need a little more time (Quinn, JJ, Power etc.) but have shown that they can play in this league. I would guess that we are a year behind them. Hopefully, we can also make the quantum leap next year as they did this year. 

22 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Nobody will want to hear this, but I just have to mention, Will Borgen is now 2nd pairing on Seattle's D.  

Just because he plays on the second pairing doesn't mean he is a second pairing caliber of player. 

[PASabreFan]

5 hours ago, Pimlach said:

The coach shows no accountability or responsibility for himself.  The players will love that.  

What is easier.  Fire the coach or replace 15 players?  

I must have missed DG taking accountability for his terrible game management that must have cost his team enough points to make the difference. Or the coaching on the defensive side.

[PerreaultForever]

4 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Just because he plays on the second pairing doesn't mean he is a second pairing caliber of player. 

Maybe not, but then again, with him in that role they are leading going into a game 6 in the playoffs so he can't be all bad. 

You and I (and everyone else) knows that the haunting of Will Borgen keeps coming to mind because we keep talking about how we need another solid D man. We all also know how it would likely have been hard to keep him, but at this point we'd have been better to give them VO wouldn't we. 

Seattle game should be fun tonight. 

[JohnC]

Just now, PerreaultForever said:

Maybe not, but then again, with him in that role they are leading going into a game 6 in the playoffs so he can't be all bad. 

You and I (and everyone else) knows that the haunting of Will Borgen keeps coming to mind because we keep talking about how we need another solid D man. We all also know how it would likely have been hard to keep him, but at this point we'd have been better to give them VO wouldn't we. 

Seattle game should be fun tonight. 

I didn't come close to saying that he is bad. I simply asked if you considered him to be a second-pairing caliber of player. If Borgen was on the Sabres, I doubt that he will be a second-pairing defenseman. 

[DarthEbriate]

11 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Jersey has recently had a number of high draft choices. I've watched a portion of a number of their games and come away very impressed. It seems as if in relatively short period of time this young core has demonstrated that they are already good, with plenty of potential to get even better. To state the obvious, their style of play is fast skating, full length skill hockey compared to their former clog the middle and suffocating defense that relied on muscle more than skill. Their former sluggish brand of hockey got them a lot of victories but from an entertainment value it was soul-crushing. 

They have accumulated a number of young players who are ready to play in this league. We also have accumulated a number of good young players who may need a little more time (Quinn, JJ, Power etc.) but have shown that they can play in this league. I would guess that we are a year behind them. Hopefully, we can also make the quantum leap next year as they did this year. 

Just because he plays on the second pairing doesn't mean he is a second pairing caliber of player. 

For a dash of vernal hopium...  I noted this in another thread somewhere. NJD has a superstar who is 21 (Hughes) and another stud in Mercer (21). And if you want to include Bahl and Schmid as minor contributors this season at age 22, fine. But the rest of their young core is all 24 or older and all their non-Bahl D are 25 or older. 

Contrast that with the Sabres young core (all 23 or under this season): Joker, UPL, Dahlin, Krebs, Muel, Cozens, Levi, JJP, Quinn, Power. The Sabres could be very good next season and playoff worthy (with goaltending) and still be 2 more years of growth from where NJD's age is currently.

[DarthEbriate]

8 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I didn't come close to saying that he is bad. I simply asked if you considered him to be a second-pairing caliber of player. If Borgen was on the Sabres, I doubt that he will be a second-pairing defenseman. 

But even as a 5/6 he'd have kept Bryson/Clague off the ice for many games this past season. OR another UFA D last summer would have. 😇

The good news on Borgen is that he's becoming a viable top 6 with some muscle and poise that many 'Spacers had projected and hoped he would become. And the Sabres kept Risto and traded him for an absurd package (for then-Risto).

[Eleven]

Is it four elimination games tonight?  This should be fun!

[GoPuckYourself]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

Well that'll be the question won't it? It's not unlike the Sutter situation in Calgary. If they keep Bowness that'll clearly indicate that players have to go. I think the general view listening to HNIC etc. is that Winnipeg needs to change a LOT. 

I guess, in hindsight, Torts was right about DuBois for one. 

Ya, I think he might be the one guy they DON'T trade, but ya.

I agree but I still want him lol

[K-9]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

I didn't come close to saying that he is bad. I simply asked if you considered him to be a second-pairing caliber of player. If Borgen was on the Sabres, I doubt that he will be a second-pairing defenseman. 

Borgen would be second pairing over Joki, that’s for sure. He’s just better at playing the defensive position. That said, Borgen would be bumped down to third pair in favor of the legit second pair D man we will he acquiring this summer.

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, K-9 said:

Borgen would be second pairing over Joki, that’s for sure. He’s just better at playing the defensive position. That said, Borgen would be bumped down to third pair in favor of the legit second pair D man we will he acquiring this summer.

That's the point that I was making. That he is more of a third pairing player than a second pairing talent. The goal would be to bring in a talent that would lower his pairing and better slot him where his talent would suggest. I would be more than happy to add him to the unit to upgrade the lower half of the unit.

I want to note that I have a higher view of Joki than 99% of the audience here. I have no problem with him being a #4 player on the second pairing. I consider him to be a 4/5 defenseman, leaning toward the fifth spot. As I have said many times, if a better player is added to the mix, then he will get dropped to a lower pairing. That would be a good indication that the unit's depth is thickened. 

[K-9]

4 minutes ago, JohnC said:

That's the point that I was making. That he is more of a third pairing player than a second pairing talent. The goal would be to bring in a talent that would lower his pairing and better slot him where his talent would suggest. I would be more than happy to add him to the unit to upgrade the lower half of the unit.

I want to note that I have a higher view of Joki than 99% of the audience here. I have no problem with him being a #4 player on the second pairing. I consider him to be a 4/5 defenseman, leaning toward the fifth spot. As I have said many times, if a better player is added to the mix, then he will get dropped to a lower pairing. That would be a good indication that the unit's depth is thickened. 

Borgen is kind of a moot point anyway.

As to Joki, yeah, you’ve made your position known several times in the past. So I have to ask, do you actually watch him play in our D end? 😄

[JohnC]

15 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Borgen is kind of a moot point anyway.

As to Joki, yeah, you’ve made your position known several times in the past. So I have to ask, do you actually watch him play in our D end? 😄

I watch him as much as you watch Mitts. 🤡

I hope you take that clown comment in the right spirit of friendly jabbing back. 

Getting back on course, one of the reasons that I'm more accepting of Joki as a #4 defenseman is that I categorize him as a complementary player. He's not a lead player on the second pairing. He's a support player who allows Power to control the play as the dominant player on the pair. If a better player is added to the unit, then he should/would drop to a lower pairing. 

What I find interesting is that whenever I hear Granato talk about Joki he seems more positive about him than crowd here is. 

[SABRES 0311]

16 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I watch him as much as you watch Mitts. 🤡

I hope you take that clown comment in the right spirit of friendly jabbing back. 

Getting back on course, one of the reasons that I'm more accepting of Joki as a #4 defenseman is that I categorize him as a complementary player. He's not a lead player on the second pairing. He's a support player who allows Power to control the play as the dominant player on the pair. If a better player is added to the unit, then he should/would drop to a lower pairing. 

What I find interesting is that whenever I hear Granato talk about Joki he seems more positive about him than crowd here is. 

Joki works hard and for a time people were high on him, but better players have emerged. So, it's not that Joki is bad at his position, he's just not as good as others. The disconnect comes when we don't differentiate between what is and what we hope happens. I think he is the fourth best defenseman on the team but if we meet the needed improvements, he drops down to third pairing.

I think Granato is trying to do right by his players and Joki isn't a guy who would necessarily become a whipping boy. Granato is a positive guy and judging by the on-ice product he is all about building confidence. He will remain positive of a guy like Joki because it is his nature and the culture he wants to cement. That is about as much as I would read into it though. I do not think it is indicative of Joki having some type of untapped upside that we fans do not see.   

[Pimlach]

5 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

I must have missed DG taking accountability for his terrible game management that must have cost his team enough points to make the difference. Or the coaching on the defensive side.

So should he have blamed the players for missing by 1 win and do it publicly?  Then end the interview? 

Edited April 29, 2023 by Pimlach

[K-9]

39 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I watch him as much as you watch Mitts. 🤡

I hope you take that clown comment in the right spirit of friendly jabbing back. 

Getting back on course, one of the reasons that I'm more accepting of Joki as a #4 defenseman is that I categorize him as a complementary player. He's not a lead player on the second pairing. He's a support player who allows Power to control the play as the dominant player on the pair. If a better player is added to the unit, then he should/would drop to a lower pairing. 

What I find interesting is that whenever I hear Granato talk about Joki he seems more positive about him than crowd here is. 

As one of his harshest critics, I can very much appreciate the comment on Mitts and as I’ve said, he’s managed to turn his game around. I’m more than glad to enjoy that dish of crow.

Unfortunately, unlike Mitts, Joki hasn’t managed to show that same level of improvement in his game. That’s not trashing Joki in the least; I’m just recognizing that he’s suited for a third pairing level. 

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, JohnC said:

I didn't come close to saying that he is bad. I simply asked if you considered him to be a second-pairing caliber of player. If Borgen was on the Sabres, I doubt that he will be a second-pairing defenseman. 

If he was, he might be. Seeing what I've seen from Borgen over the last few months if he was still a Sabre I might have him playing with Power. We definitely would have had better depth in that injury period and we definitely wouldn't have had to go to Bryson at the bottom end. Jokiharju and Stillman would be fighting it out to be Lybushkin's partner. 

I'm sure some would disagree, but I see Borgen (now) as similar to Lybushkin, only more physical and slightly better. Really good team guy as well. So he'd not be the solution to the D problem (we could still use a better top 4 guy) but he would have made it better. 

All moot now anyway. Just off season talkin'. 

Watch Seattle though and tell me you don't find them entertaining. 

3 hours ago, GoPuckYourself said:

I agree but I still want him lol

No thanks. I would have taken the chance after he quit on Torts (giving Torts the blame) but now he's quit in 2 places. I don't want that in this locker room. 

[GoPuckYourself]

4 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

If he was, he might be. Seeing what I've seen from Borgen over the last few months if he was still a Sabre I might have him playing with Power. We definitely would have had better depth in that injury period and we definitely wouldn't have had to go to Bryson at the bottom end. Jokiharju and Stillman would be fighting it out to be Lybushkin's partner. 

I'm sure some would disagree, but I see Borgen (now) as similar to Lybushkin, only more physical and slightly better. Really good team guy as well. So he'd not be the solution to the D problem (we could still use a better top 4 guy) but he would have made it better. 

All moot now anyway. Just off season talkin'. 

Watch Seattle though and tell me you don't find them entertaining. 

No thanks. I would have taken the chance after he quit on Torts (giving Torts the blame) but now he's quit in 2 places. I don't want that in this locker room. 

What, Morrisey was injured, he never quit and had a fantastic year. Oh you thought I meant Pierre Luc Dubois? Gosh no, never understood the love for that guy.

[PerreaultForever]

1 minute ago, GoPuckYourself said:

What, Morrisey was injured, he never quit and had a fantastic year. Oh you thought I meant Pierre Luc Dubois? Gosh no, never understood the love for that guy.

Ya I was thinking you meant DuBois. Morrissey's fine (even if he is a bit of a mopey singer) 🙂

 

[Thorny]

I doubt they move Morrissey, but keep in mind, his defensive metrics this year were as poor as Karlsson’s