Brawndo Posted May 5, 2023 Report Share Posted May 5, 2023 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted May 5, 2023 Report Share Posted May 5, 2023 The people (like Paul Hamilton) arguing for Morrissey are the WORST. His defensive metrics were terrible lol. Do even one ounce or research beyond “oh the guy they are calling NORRISSEY has pointz” I beg you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted May 5, 2023 Report Share Posted May 5, 2023 (edited) I have to leave Twitter. The most common argument for why Makar deserved it was because even despite missing games he was *still* able to achieve point per game. I mean..people understand it’s easier to maintain ppg the smaller the sample size, right? That certainly doesn’t make it more impressive and it actually makes it less. Like when you play through injury instead and your ppg goes down Edited May 5, 2023 by Thorny 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted May 5, 2023 Report Share Posted May 5, 2023 25 minutes ago, Thorny said: I have to leave Twitter. The most common argument for why Makar deserved it was because even despite missing games he was *still* able to achieve point per game. I mean..people understand it’s easier to maintain ppg the smaller the sample size, right? That certainly doesn’t make it more impressive and it actually makes it less. Like when you play through injury instead and your ppg goes down Thorny, most people you see on Twitter are functionally lobotomized 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted May 5, 2023 Report Share Posted May 5, 2023 2 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said: Thorny, most people you see on Twitter are functionally lobotomized Oh so THAT’s what bot is short for 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthEbriate Posted May 5, 2023 Report Share Posted May 5, 2023 If the Sabres had made the playoffs (or if Dahlin had simply been shut down with injury instead of seeing his production drop while he played through it and thus the national folks see his loss as the reason they missed the playoffs), then he's a nominee. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted May 5, 2023 Report Share Posted May 5, 2023 (edited) Too lazy to look, and its a workday, but wasn’t there an article posted (in this thread maybe) indicating that Dahlin has some fairly poor advanced metrics relative to his Norris peers, specifically on the defensive side? I recall the metrics mentioned not being metrics we fans mention much, contested zone entries, that sort of thing. And Dahlin didn’t measure up with those stats. Unpopular opinion but, maybe our bias is showing here and he’s not a top 3 guy yet. Pg 2, Darth posted an article from the athletic. No subscription so I don’t know the context, but a clip Darth posted indicates that there are flaws that would keep Dahlin out of the final 3. Edited May 5, 2023 by Weave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
French Collection Posted May 5, 2023 Report Share Posted May 5, 2023 Fox got in because he is a former winner and his team made the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted May 5, 2023 Report Share Posted May 5, 2023 I am disappointed for Dahlin. He deserves this recognition. However, as a Sabres fan, this works out well. A snub like this should help ensure that Dahlin continues an upward trajectory toward a final form that will be incredible to behold. He's still getting better, folks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
French Collection Posted May 5, 2023 Report Share Posted May 5, 2023 31 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said: I am disappointed for Dahlin. He deserves this recognition. However, as a Sabres fan, this works out well. A snub like this should help ensure that Dahlin continues an upward trajectory toward a final form that will be incredible to behold. He's still getting better, folks. This is on point. A few things might line up for him to take it up a notch next year. His competitive juices will overflow. The team will improve, helping his numbers. His leadership role could be elevated. His contract status may be settled. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalonill Posted May 5, 2023 Report Share Posted May 5, 2023 Oh well atleast they cant use that for contract negotiations so thats a win get him 1 million dollar cheaper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted May 5, 2023 Report Share Posted May 5, 2023 1 hour ago, Weave said: Too lazy to look, and its a workday, but wasn’t there an article posted (in this thread maybe) indicating that Dahlin has some fairly poor advanced metrics relative to his Norris peers, specifically on the defensive side? I recall the metrics mentioned not being metrics we fans mention much, contested zone entries, that sort of thing. And Dahlin didn’t measure up with those stats. Unpopular opinion but, maybe our bias is showing here and he’s not a top 3 guy yet. Pg 2, Darth posted an article from the athletic. No subscription so I don’t know the context, but a clip Darth posted indicates that there are flaws that would keep Dahlin out of the final 3. According to the charts Brawndo posted his defensive metrics are basically identical to Makar's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted May 5, 2023 Report Share Posted May 5, 2023 15 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said: According to the charts Brawndo posted his defensive metrics are basically identical to Makar's Like I said above, I didn’t read the article. Don’t have a subscription. But the clip Darth posted mentioned stats that we don’t typically see and discuss, so there may be more to it than the commonly available stats we usually see in those fancy bar graphs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjd1001 Posted May 5, 2023 Report Share Posted May 5, 2023 (edited) I don't know what the analytics say, but eye test I wouldn't put Karlson in the top 3. I know, this point total gets him in there but his Defensive play is pretty awful at times. It seems like he put some effort into his own end 3-5 years ago and he got better, but he's back to being bad. I have seen more than one highlight of him this year where he is on the ice and a goal is scored against them where he kinda just stands there and does...nothing. 101 points is a lot, that means he was on the ice for a lot of goals for...but when your plus-minus is a negative 26 WITH 100 points for...that means you are on the ice for a LOT of goals against. The eye test of his play shows it. He has 25-30 more points than the rest of the top-10 D-men...but I am pretty sure his play and effort in his own end cost his team more goals against than that. Without a late Dahlin injury, he should be there instead of Karlsson. Because Dahlin got injured, Morrisey should be there instead of Karlsson. Edited May 5, 2023 by mjd1001 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
French Collection Posted May 5, 2023 Report Share Posted May 5, 2023 20 minutes ago, Weave said: Like I said above, I didn’t read the article. Don’t have a subscription. But the clip Darth posted mentioned stats that we don’t typically see and discuss, so there may be more to it than the commonly available stats we usually see in those fancy bar graphs I don’t know if the average reporter, who votes on the award, will actually dive deeply into those fancy stats. To me it looks like 3 former winners, one with a generational offensive season. I think the first numbers they look at are points and then fine tune it from there. I think the NHL should add a Rod Langway award for the best defensive Dman, similar to the Selke for forwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted May 5, 2023 Report Share Posted May 5, 2023 (edited) Hockey community out here is aghast that Quinn Hughes wasn't a finalist. Radio guys listed off Morrisey, Montour, Dahlin, Hamilton, Heiskanen and Hughes and said any of that group could be considered more deserving than all three finalists. Their theory was that in a year with so many viable candidates, voters frequently defaulted to a guy that won it before over a guy that didn't. Edited May 5, 2023 by dudacek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted May 5, 2023 Report Share Posted May 5, 2023 I suspect when the ballots are counted you will see a lot of the outsiders robbing votes from each other, allowing the established guys to come up the middle. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted May 5, 2023 Report Share Posted May 5, 2023 3 hours ago, That Aud Smell said: I am disappointed for Dahlin. He deserves this recognition. However, as a Sabres fan, this works out well. A snub like this should help ensure that Dahlin continues an upward trajectory toward a final form that will be incredible to behold. He's still getting better, folks. And, not that it matters, but the NHL in their mid-season awards was giving the Norris to Dahlin. Even ahead of Karlsson and his crazy offensive #'s. @Thorny was right about the injury induced swoon that Dahlin had right after the ASG. It cost him a finalist nod. And agree with you, that this snub might be the best thing that could've happened to the Sabres next year (well, 2nd best right behind Levi being what he's certainly appeared to be capable of being) having their best skater playing with a chip on his shoulder. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted May 5, 2023 Report Share Posted May 5, 2023 36 minutes ago, Taro T said: And, not that it matters, but the NHL in their mid-season awards was giving the Norris to Dahlin. Even ahead of Karlsson and his crazy offensive #'s. @Thorny was right about the injury induced swoon that Dahlin had right after the ASG. It cost him a finalist nod. And agree with you, that this snub might be the best thing that could've happened to the Sabres next year (well, 2nd best right behind Levi being what he's certainly appeared to be capable of being) having their best skater playing with a chip on his shoulder. It also may have shaved $1 million AAV off the Dahlin contract extension. Hughes $7.8 and Heiskanen $8.4 aren’t direct comps, because they signed earlier in their careers, but they are player comps. Fox and McAvoy are more direct, and they are both $9.5, the league’s 4th and 5th highest-paid D. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brawndo Posted May 5, 2023 Report Share Posted May 5, 2023 Using Hockey Viz’s Model Fox and Karlsson were better at driving offense Dahlin was better than Makar on offense. Dahlin had better defensive metrics than all of them. Same with Evolving Hockey. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pi2000 Posted May 5, 2023 Report Share Posted May 5, 2023 The Norris has devolved into "whichever defenseman scores the most points". It is what it is. Dahlin's a great defenseman no matter how many votes he gets. That said, maybe they should have a separate award for "most points by a defenseman" like the Art Ross.. call it the Coffey Trophy or something. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PerreaultForever Posted May 5, 2023 Report Share Posted May 5, 2023 1 hour ago, dudacek said: It also may have shaved $1 million AAV off the Dahlin contract extension. Hughes $7.8 and Heiskanen $8.4 aren’t direct comps, because they signed earlier in their careers, but they are player comps. Fox and McAvoy are more direct, and they are both $9.5, the league’s 4th and 5th highest-paid D. Ya, we probably should be happy he's not a Norris finalist. It might have raised the price tag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalonill Posted May 5, 2023 Report Share Posted May 5, 2023 1 hour ago, pi2000 said: The Norris has devolved into "whichever defenseman scores the most points". It is what it is. Dahlin's a great defenseman no matter how many votes he gets. That said, maybe they should have a separate award for "most points by a defenseman" like the Art Ross.. call it the Coffey Trophy or something. Should have 2 awards its dumb now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pi2000 Posted May 5, 2023 Report Share Posted May 5, 2023 4 hours ago, Buffalonill said: Should have 2 awards its dumb now Everybody gets an award! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted May 6, 2023 Report Share Posted May 6, 2023 (edited) 17 hours ago, mjd1001 said: I don't know what the analytics say, but eye test I wouldn't put Karlson in the top 3. I know, this point total gets him in there but his Defensive play is pretty awful at times. It seems like he put some effort into his own end 3-5 years ago and he got better, but he's back to being bad. I have seen more than one highlight of him this year where he is on the ice and a goal is scored against them where he kinda just stands there and does...nothing. 101 points is a lot, that means he was on the ice for a lot of goals for...but when your plus-minus is a negative 26 WITH 100 points for...that means you are on the ice for a LOT of goals against. The eye test of his play shows it. He has 25-30 more points than the rest of the top-10 D-men...but I am pretty sure his play and effort in his own end cost his team more goals against than that. Without a late Dahlin injury, he should be there instead of Karlsson. Because Dahlin got injured, Morrisey should be there instead of Karlsson. Morrissey’s defensive metrics were as bad as Karlssons Edited May 6, 2023 by Thorny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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