2023-24 Sabres Early Thoughts

[TRIP65]

On 3/11/2023 at 5:01 PM, Pimlach said:

Punch made a lot of shrewd trades constantly upgrading the lineup since day 1.  

Starting with the goalies, and many old veterans that had a few miles left, to actual long term help like Robert, Lorentz, Horton, and Luce.  

Drafting four impact players in 3 drafts didn't hurt either:  Perreault, Martin, Ramsay and Schoenfeld 

Those teams did not settle for losing.  If the defense was week he bought in Pratt, Robey, Horton.  If they got pushed around, he traded for fighters.  If they needed goals, he traded for scorers.  

That was in the days of $3.50 Oranges and the Aud was loud and sold out every night - forget about getting tickets, you had to know someone.   The crowd pumped up the team back then.  

Could be done today though there are not as many great tough guys like there use to be. How good would the Ramsey's look with Dahlin and Power today!

On 3/11/2023 at 4:50 PM, Thorny said:

I buy the idea these kids by and large come in to the NHL far more developed on the offensive side of the equation, I guess I’m just not sold on the idea that, should defence be the first area of attention once player is in the pros, that that would result in the stunting of offensive growth. Why can’t the attention to offence be second? It particularly needs to be first? It was the use of “permanently” re: stunted offensive growth that caught my eye. 

like, (reading up, it appears to be a myth?) but say the old idea: you add a ton of muscle mass before your growth spurt, you can stunt your growth. The operating thought at least was that you could actively hamper future growth. I’m not sure why rounding out your D game before the offensive game at the pro level* would necessarily stunt the potential for offensive growth - it very well might, I just don’t see the connection 

*If it’s coach mandated that’s more a case of being pigeonholed, I’d argue, rather than any kind of “permanence”

ymmv 

If you don't have defense, then you need TWO very good Goalies

[TRIP65]

On 3/12/2023 at 1:15 PM, GASabresIUFAN said:

I think you are forgetting the first adage of a trade.  ‘You have to give to get.”  If KA needs to trade Joki to get Power a better partner, would you really be against it? 

NO

[TRIP65]

On 3/12/2023 at 1:33 PM, Taro T said:

You seem to be forgetting the 2nd adage.  You don't deplete what you're weak in to shore that area up.  Trade what you have a surplus of to shore up weaknesses.

You can do that anytime? If a certain team has a guy you like and they say they want this guy, make the trade and do another if you need to shore up. Not many trades were you get a perfect fit for a Power or Dahlin. We have Wingers and Centers to give.

[TRIP65]

On 3/13/2023 at 9:01 AM, JohnC said:

You don't have to be a bruiser to be a good defender. You preferably want a mix of styles of play within the unit. But the notion that being a bruiser is a requisite is outdated. Samuelsson is not a bruiser, and neither is Power. Dahlin is hitting a little more, and because of it getting hurt more. But you certainly can't describe his style of play as bruising. You keep promoting the false premise that Joki is a detriment to the pairing he is on. That's not an accurate description of that tandem. As stated by @Taro T and others there definitely is a need for another defender or two to bulk up the unit and improve the lower pairings. I would be more than happy if the GM was able to bring in another Lyubushkin type of player and create more depth on the blueline. And assuming there is an additon/s Joki will still stay. 

How would you describe Joki? I see him as a cheaper Offensive defensiveman. Not a 1 dimensional player or a lock down defensiveman. That makes him a bad pairing with Dahlin or Power long term. Sam also is two way but seems to work well with Dahlin. We have few stay at home guys that are great doing that.

[TRIP65]

On 3/13/2023 at 6:15 PM, JohnC said:

I'm not sure what you mean by "twitches" but the goalie situation in general entering next season makes me queasy. It seems that too much is being on foisted on the shoulders on Levi. 

Wouldn't worry about Levi, worry about UPL and Comrie being on your team next year as #1's

[Thorny]

31 minutes ago, TRIP65 said:

Sabres need both when Dahlin and Power lean so heavy with offense. Who really is your LOCK DOWN defensiveman?

Up until recently Dahlin was very much “lock it down” 

[TRIP65]

On 3/13/2023 at 5:14 PM, Weave said:

When the mantra is, wait for everyone to develop it is.

Barasso

On 3/13/2023 at 5:22 PM, Randall Flagg said:

Yeah. We know comrie was a flop right away. Instant bad grade on that move. You can string out poor performances by Levi a lot longer with the narrative the entire organization is hammering every day without needing to supply a grade yet 

Levi needs to be behind a real number 1 for a year in NHL. Good older Vet wouldn't be a issue if he isn't 41.

[TRIP65]

On 3/13/2023 at 6:42 PM, JohnC said:

I've listened to Granato and KA on more than a few times this year. It seems that you have captured their mind-set about this team, season and philosophy. They believe in their rebuilding approach and are invested in it. It appears that they are sticking with it. Is it a demonstration of fortitude/resoluteness or is it a demonstration of inflexibility and stubbornness? Time will tell. 

Pegula to Adams/Granto

 

WHY IS MY STADIUM EMPTY?????

[TRIP65]

On 3/14/2023 at 11:29 AM, Night Train said:

Is UPL one of the 2 Goalies going forward ? There's a question. 

probably traded depending if Sabres are willing to get a good Vet Goalie to bring Levi along

[tom webster]

1 minute ago, TRIP65 said:

Pegula to Adams/Granto

 

WHY IS MY STADIUM EMPTY?????

Business has been extremely brisk for new season tickets. Attendance has already significantly increase towards the end of the season and that will carry over. Fan support will not influence management.

I believe John C. has been proven wrong as there have obviously been attempts to expedite the rebuild, but it has nothing to do with early season attendance.

[TRIP65]

On 3/14/2023 at 5:15 PM, GASabresIUFAN said:

Given the conversations from 2 other threads, I have come away with a simple game plan for this off-season

1) Sign Orlov to be Power's partner and mentor to the young D group. 4 years 5.25 per season (3 years would be better, but he may want the 4th come)

2) Trade for any of the 3 goalies - Demko, Saros, or Hart - Trade 1st in 2024, a 2nd in 2023, and Rosen? Less?

3) Move on from VO, Bryson, Comrie, Anderson, and Girgensons (or KO)  - Trading VO gets us back some of the assets spent on the goalie.

4) Re-sign one of either KO or Z, but not both - KO - 1yr 3.5 million

5) Re-sign Jost and Clague - 2 years at 2 mill for Jost (PS Happy 25th).  $925 K for one year for Clague

6) Extend Power and Dahlin - Dahlin 8 years at 11 per? Power - impossible to even forecast.

7) Sign a 4th-line center who is good on the draw and who can contribute offensively like Eric Haula.  Haula, 31, signed two years with Bos at 2.375 for 2 years and has exceeded that contract value both years.  What about 2 years @ 2.75 per season?

Skinner Tnt Tuch

JJP Cozens Quinn

Mitts Krebs Kulich/Savoie

Greenway Haula KO

Jost

Samuelsson Dahlin

Power Orlov

Jokiharju Lyubushkin 

Clague Stillman

Demko/UPL

Cost around 79.75 for that roster.

No to Clague at Sabres level and if that is your second line, not making Playoffs. Be 13. The second Line needs a proven scorer because Quinn isn't there yet. Be OK if Tuch goes there with Peterka and Quinn to top line. But if TAGE says no then go get a Vet Winger like Tuch.

[TRIP65]

On 3/18/2023 at 12:07 PM, GASabresIUFAN said:

@Crusader1969 and @LGR4GM in the Sabres missing the playoffs spread discussed roster changes this off-season.  They pondered up to 5-8 roster changes for 2023-24.  Crusader thinking 3 max and LGR saying there was 0 chance we'd have 5-8.

I answered with the following but thought my answer was more appropriate here.

It's an interesting question.  How many current players return? There are only 6 FAs, including 4 UFAs ( KO, Z, Anderson and Vinnie) and 2 RFAs (Clague and Jost).  Only 1 player on the current roster is certainly not returning and that is Craig Anderson.  The rest who knows.  In theory, if none of the FAs return that is 6 open roster spots and there is reason to believe that 3-4 may not return (Vinnie, Anderson, KO/Z, and or Clague)

F - Cozens, Tuch, Krebs, Tnt, Skinner, Greenway, and Quinn will be back.  Mitts and JJP are also almost certain to return unless KA is willing to trade one to help another area.  VO is out of favor in general and should be traded.  Greenway is getting either KO or Z's job and they'll probably re-sign Jost. Vinnie is likely going to try his luck elsewhere. (2-3 changes?)

D - Dahlin, Mule, Bush and Power will certainly be back.  Stillman was acquired with term.  He'll also return.  Joki is well-liked and I assume he'll be back unless needed to upgrade Power's partner.  I'd move on from both Clague and Bryson.  (1-2 changes)

G - UPL and Comrie both stink and both should go.  (1-2 changes)

Like it or not 4-5 rookies may vie for roster spots next year in Johnson, Levi, Savoie, Kulich, and Rousek.

There easily is potential for 5-8 roster changes.  Dump Bryson, Clague, Vinnie, Anderson, Comrie, and one of Z or KO and you're there.  Trade VO and your at 7 current players sent packing. 

We actually have had 5 roster changes during the season.  In - UPL, Clague, Stillman, Greenway, and Jost.  Out - Bjork, Asplund, Fitzgerald, and Sheahan.  Comrie is on IR. 

Middlestat has to go, need more goals, more upside there.

[TRIP65]

5 hours ago, Night Train said:

 If the team doesn't learn how to play D, nothing will change.  Can Granato teach that ?

Asst. coaches more specialized with the special teams play. Both the PK and PP struggle. Faceoffs need to be won in key moments. 

Let's just dump it all on Levi saving us. That's fair....sigh...

LOTS of work to do. Quit fooling yourself. 

see KNEW assistant coaches

[TRIP65]

30 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Up until recently Dahlin was very much “lock it down” 

If Dahlin stays back yes but he needs to be part of the offense, why we need great 1 dimensional to be with Power and Dahlin

[Pimlach]

Frederick, just punched out Dahlin.  No problem.  We have Greenway.

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, TRIP65 said:

We need great One Dimensional defensiveman that can go with Dahlin and Power. Put Sam and Jok together than, be a good third pair. Stillman and Lyb your backups.

[French Collection]

A small thing in the big picture but I’m still mad that KA did not use any cap space at the deadline.

I was sure he would get a few late round picks for brokering a deal or two for contenders.

No big deal but they are assets that can be used to sweeten the pot on deals on draft day when GMs get worked up about a kid they really want.

At the very least, you can use the picks and maybe one pans out.

Poor use of cap space for a guy who preaches draft and develop.

[GASabresIUFAN]

2 minutes ago, French Collection said:

Poor use of cap space for a guy who preaches draft and develop.

I agree that would have been ideal.  However you don’t know if TP put limits on KA’s usage of his money for this type of deal.  Remember that retaining cap comes with a real $ cost.  In addition, most of the transactions were West players heading East. KA rightly didn’t want to help our opponents get better on our nickel.  

[Thorny]

10 minutes ago, French Collection said:

A small thing in the big picture but I’m still mad that KA did not use any cap space at the deadline.

I was sure he would get a few late round picks for brokering a deal or two for contenders.

No big deal but they are assets that can be used to sweeten the pot on deals on draft day when GMs get worked up about a kid they really want.

At the very least, you can use the picks and maybe one pans out.

Poor use of cap space for a guy who preaches draft and develop.

This lends some caution to the idea it’s purely a KA thing, no? Like, it wasn’t just “free cap space!”, the actual tangible dollars mattered?

[French Collection]

20 minutes ago, Thorny said:

This lends some caution to the idea it’s purely a KA thing, no? Like, it wasn’t just “free cap space!”, the actual tangible dollars mattered?

Pegula bucks.

The Wild got a 2025 4th round pick for retaining 25% of ROR’s salary for the Leafs. The actual dollars were $85K because of salary bonus already paid out.

Pegula probably didn’t want to pay a cent to help ROR or the Leafs but there were other deals.

 

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, French Collection said:

A small thing in the big picture but I’m still mad that KA did not use any cap space at the deadline.

I was sure he would get a few late round picks for brokering a deal or two for contenders.

No big deal but they are assets that can be used to sweeten the pot on deals on draft day when GMs get worked up about a kid they really want.

At the very least, you can use the picks and maybe one pans out.

Poor use of cap space for a guy who preaches draft and develop.

Considering there was roughly 1/4 of the season left in the year and the maximum retention on a contract is 50%, retaining salary would cost in actual real $'s about 1/8 of what the player was due to earn this season in a worst case.  If they had a signing bonus, it could be significantly less than that (the O'Reilly example just brought up being a great example).

It was a missed opportunity.  Can understand reasons for missing that opportunity, but it still was a missed opportunity.

[steveoath]

Is multiquote a thing? Holy fart this is making for hard reading.

[GASabresIUFAN]

https://theathletic.com/4357938/2023/03/29/buffalo-sabres-2023-24-roster-contracts-offseason/

The Athletics view of where each player stands for next year 

Core under contract - TNT, Skinner, Tuch, Cozens, Samuelsson

Core needing an extension - Power and Dahlin

Potential Core Players - Quinn, JJP and Krebs.  Not sure I agree on Krebs.  The author thinks Krebs is emerging as our No 3 center.  

Part of the Plan for at least next season - Mitts, Greenway, Joki and Lyubushkin.  I say Stillman is as well as a worst the 7th D.  The author thinks both Joki and Mitts will be available if the right trade offer was made.  He thinks Joki on the 3rd pair would help Joki succeed and thinks Mitts adds value as a 3rd line winger.

Under Contract with things to prove - Bryson , Stillman, Comrie, UPL, and VO - He thinks UPL returns and VO is gone.  I think all should go, except I realize management acquired him for depth next year as well.  I think there is a high likelihood that UPL is included in any deal for a quality goaltender. 

RFAs - Clague and Jost - He says no to Clague and yes to Jost, but not sure of Jost’s role next season. 

UFAs - KO, Z, Anderson and Vinnie - Vinnie is gone. Anderson to retire.  KO decides if he’ll be back and Z may hit the market. I say time to move on from all 4. 

Potential rookies - Levi, Kulich, Rousek, Rosen and Savoie.  What about Johnson? Agrees Rosen and Levi need to be in the AHL.  Thinks Kulich and Savoie could compete for NHL jobs and Rousek had a legit shot at earning one next year.  I agree, except I think Rousek will make the team.  

 

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by GASabresIUFAN

[mjd1001]

31 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Core needing an extension - Power and Dahlin

Potential Core Players - Quinn, JJP and Krebs.  Not sure I agree on Krebs.  The author thinks Krebs is emerging as our No 3 center.  

Part of the Plan for at least next season - Mitts, Greenway, Joki and Lyubushkin.  I say Stillman is as well as a worst the 7th D.  The author thinks both Joki and Mitts will be available if the right trade offer was made.  He thinks Joki on the 3rd pair would help Joki succeed and thinks Mitts adds value as a 3rd line winger.

Under Contract with things to prove - Bryson , Stillman, Comrie, UPL, and VO - He thinks UPL returns and VO is gone.  I think all should go, except I realize management acquired him for depth next year as well.  I think there is a high likelihood that UPL is included in any deal for a quality goaltender. 

RFAs - Clague and Jost - He says no to Clague and yes to Jost, but not sure of Jost’s role next season. 

UFAs - KO, Z, Anderson and Vinnie - Vinnie is gone. Anderson to retire.  KO decides if he’ll be back and Z may hit the market. I say time to move on from all 4. 

Potential rookies - Levi, Kulich, Rousek, Rosen and Savoie.  What about Johnson? Agrees Rosen and Levi need to be in the AHL.  Thinks Kulich and Savoie could compete for NHL jobs and Rousek had a legit shot at earning one next year.  I agree, except I think Rousek will make the team.  

 

 

I agree with most (but not all) of the above.  

Not giving up on Greenway, but I have seen nothing, ZERO from him. Maybe he needs a training camp with the team?  

Krebs.  He shows flashes of being 'pretty good', but I just still see a guy that is a 'good' hockey player but with physical deficiencies.  I just think he is too small, doesn't win battles, and too slow to ever be a guy that justifies his draft status/expectations.

Stillman isn't great, but I'm open to him being a good part of this team. As other have said, you don't need a star player to pair with Dahlin and Power.  You need a guy who is positionally sound, can win 50% or more battles in your own end for loose pucks, and has 'decent' skill (average size/skating/first pass ability).  To get all of that in a player isn't easy, but you don't need to be a star. I think Stillman can be 'close' to that ideal player.

VO....I just don't think you LOOK to get rid of a player that can score 25 or more goals for you.  If you have a young guy that is banging down the door to replace him fine. But you don't replace him until that young guy is actuall doing that...not someone you HOPE will do that eventually. Also, for as 'bad' as VO is without the puck, he doesn't make many glaring errors/giveways that result in goals.  Is he a good forechecker? no. Does he backcheck well and take the puck away from wingers in his own zone? No.  But he is not a turnover machine that causes the puck to be in his own net every game player.  UNTIL one of the guys in the minors turns into a 20 goal scorer, or until Quinn AND Peterka are BOTH 20-25 goal scorers, I keep VO around unless someone else is begging for him in a trade.

Johnson?  Since I heard that rumor he was going to sign with the Sabres, total silence.   I'm interested in what is going on there.  Maybe he can be that D-man as I described above when typing about Stillman that this team needs. They don't need a high-priced Chychrun type player. They need a steady but VERY consistend D-man that knows his role (woudn't McCabe fit on this team really well if the Sabres still had him?)

Girgensons I very much want to see back.  He is a good 4th line player-very often that 4th line he is on has the puck deep in the oppoents zone and holds it there.  He is not terrible offensively, he actually ranks in the top 6-10 on the Sabres in terms of goals-per-60 minutes year in and year out (not great but not awful for sure, in the .6-.7 GP60 range). And he is the best penalty killer on this team. When he is out there on the PK, the eye test says he is aggressive when he needs to be, makes good decisions, and is positionally sound. Statistically on the PK, the Sabres have 2 groups of players, those that are on the ice for 12+ goals per 60, and those that are on the ice for 9 or less goals per 60. For most of his career, he has been in the second (better) category.

Edited March 29, 2023 by mjd1001

[JohnC]

8 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

https://theathletic.com/4357938/2023/03/29/buffalo-sabres-2023-24-roster-contracts-offseason/

The Athletics view of where each player stands for next year 

Core under contract - TNT, Skinner, Tuch, Cozens, Samuelsson

Core needing an extension - Power and Dahlin

Potential Core Players - Quinn, JJP and Krebs.  Not sure I agree on Krebs.  The author thinks Krebs is emerging as our No 3 center.  

Part of the Plan for at least next season - Mitts, Greenway, Joki and Lyubushkin.  I say Stillman is as well as a worst the 7th D.  The author thinks both Joki and Mitts will be available if the right trade offer was made.  He thinks Joki on the 3rd pair would help Joki succeed and thinks Mitts adds value as a 3rd line winger.

Under Contract with things to prove - Bryson , Stillman, Comrie, UPL, and VO - He thinks UPL returns and VO is gone.  I think all should go, except I realize management acquired him for depth next year as well.

RFAs - Clague and Jost - He says no to Clague and yes to Jost, but not sure of Jost’s role next season. 

UFAs - KO, Z, Anderson and Vinnie - Vinnie is gone. Anderson to retire.  KO decides if he’ll be back and Z may hit the market. I say time to move on from all 4. 

Potential rookies - Levi, Kulich, Rousek, Rosen and Savoie.  What about Johnson? Agrees Rosen and Levi need to be in the AHL.  Thinks Kulich and Savoie could compete for NHL jobs and Rousek had a legit shot at earning one next year.  I agree, except I think Rousek will make the team.  

 

 

When one takes an overview of all the players that were listed it becomes evident that most of our roster is set for next year. The potential rookies you listed at the bottom of your post won't have to be rushed. The only player in the rookie list who might be moved up quicker than preferred is Savoie. And that is due to not being able to play in the AHL next year. 

Most of us agree that the blueline needs to be bulked up. That should be doable. The big challenge for this GM is to go outside his comfort zone of sticking with the process and be more aggressive in acquiring a high-end goalie. Adding a goalie such as Saros would do more to solidify the Sabre roster than any other move that he can make. The Sabres are on the doorstep of being a serious team. How will the cautious GM respond. We shall see.