Dahlin - It’s time to take a stand

[pi2000]

It looks to me like he's still lacking some confidence.    He has a handful of plays each game where he beats a guy in his own zone, carries the puck up ice through the neutral zone and instead of continuing to hold onto the puck and create offense he pulls up and either dumps it or forces a pass at the blueline.   I'd like to see him hold the puck a bit more on his rushes and maintain possession deeper into the zone to create scoring chances.     He's getting there, but it seems like he gets to a spot and then just lacks the confidence to beat the next guy and make a play.

[GoPuckYourself]

On 10/24/2021 at 10:35 AM, Pimlach said:

I don’t start many threads, at the risk of sounding like an old man, I think this needs to be said and it can be a discussion.  
 

Until Rasmus Dahlin decides he has taken enough crap, he is going to continue to get throttled, miss minutes, and inevitably lose confidence.  
 

I saw Marchand get his stick up on him early in the game. Then late in the third, they were going for a loose puck in the corner, and Marchand took his hand off his stick and slammed him into the boards with delight, before Marchand left the ice.   Dahlin did not have a good game in NJ.  Back to back games or not, we need him to be better.  
 

I am tired of seeing him get blasted and then do nothing.  Last year in a big win against Philly he was crosschecked in the mouth.  The next game he was terrible and we lost to the same team.  The Lightning take liberties with him all the time.  We don’t have a team that stands up, so he needs to do it for himself.   He is now big enough and strong enough to fight back.  If he ever does decide to set a different tone he will get more room to play his game.  

Some people are meant for that and others are not, either it's in your DNA or it isn't. Dahlin is not that guy and it's obvious but pair him with a guy who is would be the smarter choice.

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, GoPuckYourself said:

Some people are meant for that and others are not, either it's in your DNA or it isn't. Dahlin is not that guy and it's obvious but pair him with a guy who is would be the smarter choice.

I agree, but we don't have that guy. 

[pi2000]

1 hour ago, GoPuckYourself said:

Some people are meant for that and others are not, either it's in your DNA or it isn't. Dahlin is not that guy and it's obvious but pair him with a guy who is would be the smarter choice.

Instinctively yes, but everybody has a breaking point.

[LGR4GM]

I wouldn't worry about Dahlin. Holy crap was that a sequence he just executed. 

[That Aud Smell]

I thought he was doing okay adjusting to more minutes. #Fancystats say that he's sorta sucked?

 

This reply too:

 

[Taro T]

3 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

I thought he was doing okay adjusting to more minutes. #Fancystats say that he's sorta sucked?

 

This reply too:

 

So, are the gray dots behind the averaged data points supposed to be the individual game ratings from that particular season?  If so, the '20-'21 season data marker doesn't pass the eye test any more than the '21-'22 data point doesn't pass the actual game watching eye test.

[That Aud Smell]

@Taro T those look off to me as well.

The reply about everyone’s CF being better when playing away from him is troubling.

[dudacek]

14 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

I thought he was doing okay adjusting to more minutes. #Fancystats say that he's sorta sucked?

 

This reply too:

 

I wish I could intelligently discuss this, but it's  lines and dots to me.

In something I can understand, Dahlin has been on the ice for 129 shot attempts for and 101 against, giving him a Corsi of 56.1%, which, last I checked is pretty damn good. He is leading the team in ice time.

Or, you could just watch him; his entries and exits have been outstanding and his in-zone coverage the best of his career.

I'm starting to get excited.

[LGR4GM]

11 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I wish I could intelligently discuss this, but it's  lines and dots to me.

In something I can understand, Dahlin has been on the ice for 129 shot attempts for and 101 against, giving him a Corsi of 56.1%, which, last I checked is pretty damn good. He is leading the team in ice time.

Or, you could just watch him; his entries and exits have been outstanding and his in-zone coverage the best of his career.

I'm starting to get excited.

GAR is just one data point and although it is important, I think we are seeing the small sample size coupled with 2 bad games from Dahlin. He needs to keep improving and I would not be surprised if this year was a little rough for him as he finally learns how to be effective in the NHL consistently. 

[dudacek]

2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

GAR is just one data point and although it is important, I think we are seeing the small sample size coupled with 2 bad games from Dahlin. He needs to keep improving and I would not be surprised if this year was a little rough for him as he finally learns how to be effective in the NHL consistently. 

In you view, what were his bad games and why?

In my view his worst games this year have been better than his best games last year pre-Granato.

The team is 4-1-1 with him playing the 1D role.

[That Aud Smell]

18 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I wish I could intelligently discuss this, but it's  lines and dots to me.

In something I can understand, Dahlin has been on the ice for 129 shot attempts for and 101 against, giving him a Corsi of 56.1%, which, last I checked is pretty damn good. He is leading the team in ice time.

Or, you could just watch him; his entries and exits have been outstanding and his in-zone coverage the best of his career.

I'm starting to get excited.

14 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

GAR is just one data point and although it is important, I think we are seeing the small sample size coupled with 2 bad games from Dahlin. He needs to keep improving and I would not be surprised if this year was a little rough for him as he finally learns how to be effective in the NHL consistently. 

This is why I post that stuff here. I need perspective.

[LGR4GM]

16 minutes ago, dudacek said:

In you view, what were his bad games and why?

In my view his worst games this year have been better than his best games last year pre-Granato.

The team is 4-1-1 with him playing the 1D role.

I thought in the Boston game he really pushed to do too much. I thought against Tampa he needed to be better. 

I will say I am not convinced Goals Above Replacement is the measure I want to worry about with Dahlin. 

https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2017/6/16/15774850/advanced-stats-102-what-is-gar-dawson-sprigings-nhl

[LGR4GM]

10 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

This is why I post that stuff here. I need perspective.

It is part some small sample size, part Dahlin is not good in his own end, part the other stuff going on around him. GAR is a really hard stat to talk about because depending on the model it is a black box. Should we be concerned his GAR is bad, yes. Should be panic, no. Dahlin is being force fed minutes against the best and considering the coaching issues of his first 3 years, seeing him not perform great on GAR over the first 6 games doesn't necessarily surprise me. Now if this is a season long trend that doesn't improve, we should definitely be more concerned. 

[That Aud Smell]

5 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

It is part some small sample size, part Dahlin is not good in his own end, part the other stuff going on around him. GAR is a really hard stat to talk about because depending on the model it is a black box. Should we be concerned his GAR is bad, yes. Should be panic, no. Dahlin is being force fed minutes against the best and considering the coaching issues of his first 3 years, seeing him not perform great on GAR over the first 6 games doesn't necessarily surprise me. Now if this is a season long trend that doesn't improve, we should definitely be more concerned. 

This is so helpful. Sincerely. Thanks, bruv.

[LGR4GM]

10 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

This is so helpful. Sincerely. Thanks, bruv.

Welcome and honestly you can find others on here who probably understand GAR better than I do. 

[nfreeman]

My general understanding is that GAR (like WAR and some other fancystats) is a fancystat that is based on assembling other fancystats into a single "good player/bad player" number.  As such, it inevitably incorporates assumptions upon assumptions and flaws upon flaws. 

Everyone's MMV, of course, but I think this type of stat is much less reliable a barometer than some of the "single aspect" fancystats.

[inkman]

On 10/25/2021 at 5:30 PM, pi2000 said:

Instinctively yes, but everybody has a breaking point.

Mine would be the first time.  I’d probably be suspended indefinitely for what I would do.  The next time we go to the boards together, I’m slew footing him so his neck is the first point of contact with the wall.  Then I’m probably giving him a gronk/tre white kinda of elbow to his head/neck area.  Like I said, suspended indefinitely or with the DOPS, a two game suspension.  

[In The Buff]

On 10/25/2021 at 8:26 AM, Curt said:

I think this is mostly a misdiagnosis based on Dahlin’s calm personality. I believe you are off base.  Dahlin competes.

How would you describe Lidstrom (just for example)?  Did he not have many of the same characteristics that you are laying on Dahlin?

i hate when people bring up Lidstrom when speaking about Dahlin. Its grossly unfair to both of them. But i dont believe people had the same concerns with Lidstrom at this state in his career (if ever). Sure Lidstrom was calm on the ice when he played. He was patient & calculated with everything he did. He was practically a coach on the ice, always seemed to be in the right places at the right time, and other teams respected him. He also always stood up for himself & stood up for his teammates. Never a fighter per se but you don't need to be. But these are all things i dont think one would say about Dahlin.

Dahlin i'd say looks calm in the offensive end, on the defensive end he looks like a deer caught in headlights sometimes. But i dont want to get too far off track. Other teams dont respect Dahlin like they did Lidstrom. Dahlin needs to earn their respect & that just hasnt happened yet. We can say he's still young & to give him time & we'll be able to say that for a little bit longer, but at some point we'll have to stop. I'm honestly kinda lost on the comparison tho. I know when Dahlin was drafted everyone said "he's the next Lidstrom" but its been a few years now, do we still think that?

It takes more to be a great player than just being able to stickhandle & skate better than most of your peers at your position. In fact that's probably the least important when it comes down to it. I mean when you think of Lidstrom is that what YOU think of 1st?

[Curt]

7 minutes ago, In The Buff said:

i hate when people bring up Lidstrom when speaking about Dahlin. Its grossly unfair to both of them. But i dont believe people had the same concerns with Lidstrom at this state in his career (if ever). Sure Lidstrom was calm on the ice when he played. He was patient & calculated with everything he did. He was practically a coach on the ice, always seemed to be in the right places at the right time, and other teams respected him. He also always stood up for himself & stood up for his teammates. Never a fighter per se but you don't need to be. But these are all things i dont think one would say about Dahlin.

Dahlin i'd say looks calm in the offensive end, on the defensive end he looks like a deer caught in headlights sometimes. But i dont want to get too far off track. Other teams dont respect Dahlin like they did Lidstrom. Dahlin needs to earn their respect & that just hasnt happened yet. We can say he's still young & to give him time & we'll be able to say that for a little bit longer, but at some point we'll have to stop. I'm honestly kinda lost on the comparison tho. I know when Dahlin was drafted everyone said "he's the next Lidstrom" but its been a few years now, do we still think that?

It takes more to be a great player than just being able to stickhandle & skate better than most of your peers at your position. In fact that's probably the least important when it comes down to it. I mean when you think of Lidstrom is that what YOU think of 1st?

No offense, but this is a lot of wasted words.

I didn’t say that Dahlin is a similar hockey player to Lidstrom or that he is the next Lidstrom.  The comment I was responding to mostly discussed personality traits.  Lidstrom just came to mind as another player with a calm demeanor.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Curt

[LGR4GM]

8 minutes ago, In The Buff said:

i hate when people bring up Lidstrom when speaking about Dahlin. Its grossly unfair to both of them. But i dont believe people had the same concerns with Lidstrom at this state in his career (if ever). Sure Lidstrom was calm on the ice when he played. He was patient & calculated with everything he did. He was practically a coach on the ice, always seemed to be in the right places at the right time, and other teams respected him. He also always stood up for himself & stood up for his teammates. Never a fighter per se but you don't need to be. But these are all things i dont think one would say about Dahlin.

Dahlin i'd say looks calm in the offensive end, on the defensive end he looks like a deer caught in headlights sometimes. But i dont want to get too far off track. Other teams dont respect Dahlin like they did Lidstrom. Dahlin needs to earn their respect & that just hasnt happened yet. We can say he's still young & to give him time & we'll be able to say that for a little bit longer, but at some point we'll have to stop. I'm honestly kinda lost on the comparison tho. I know when Dahlin was drafted everyone said "he's the next Lidstrom" but its been a few years now, do we still think that?

It takes more to be a great player than just being able to stickhandle & skate better than most of your peers at your position. In fact that's probably the least important when it comes down to it. I mean when you think of Lidstrom is that what YOU think of 1st?

Lidstrom's first year he was 21. 

[Andrew Amerk]

On 10/27/2021 at 11:09 AM, inkman said:

Mine would be the first time.  I’d probably be suspended indefinitely for what I would do.  The next time we go to the boards together, I’m slew footing him so his neck is the first point of contact with the wall.  Then I’m probably giving him a gronk/tre white kinda of elbow to his head/neck area.  Like I said, suspended indefinitely or with the DOPS, a two game suspension.  

I endorse this message. 

[Taro T]

36 minutes ago, In The Buff said:

i hate when people bring up Lidstrom when speaking about Dahlin. Its grossly unfair to both of them. But i dont believe people had the same concerns with Lidstrom at this state in his career (if ever). Sure Lidstrom was calm on the ice when he played. He was patient & calculated with everything he did. He was practically a coach on the ice, always seemed to be in the right places at the right time, and other teams respected him. He also always stood up for himself & stood up for his teammates. Never a fighter per se but you don't need to be. But these are all things i dont think one would say about Dahlin.

Dahlin i'd say looks calm in the offensive end, on the defensive end he looks like a deer caught in headlights sometimes. But i dont want to get too far off track. Other teams dont respect Dahlin like they did Lidstrom. Dahlin needs to earn their respect & that just hasnt happened yet. We can say he's still young & to give him time & we'll be able to say that for a little bit longer, but at some point we'll have to stop. I'm honestly kinda lost on the comparison tho. I know when Dahlin was drafted everyone said "he's the next Lidstrom" but its been a few years now, do we still think that?

It takes more to be a great player than just being able to stickhandle & skate better than most of your peers at your position. In fact that's probably the least important when it comes down to it. I mean when you think of Lidstrom is that what YOU think of 1st?

At the NHL level getting stuck playing large minutes without a guy he really meshed with (IMHO, Montour probably meshed best w/ him prior to the very small sample size of him and Butcher & most people here hated that pairing) he has definitely had issues in his own end.  In junior when the comparisons to Lidstrom, Potvin, &/or Robinson began, he was good in his own end and played fairly physically in front of his own net.  Still expect that part of his game to improve as he develops man strength.  Kid is still only 21 and will remain that until fairly late in the RS.

[Thorny]

12 hours ago, Taro T said:

At the NHL level getting stuck playing large minutes without a guy he really meshed with (IMHO, Montour probably meshed best w/ him prior to the very small sample size of him and Butcher & most people here hated that pairing) he has definitely had issues in his own end.  In junior when the comparisons to Lidstrom, Potvin, &/or Robinson began, he was good in his own end and played fairly physically in front of his own net.  Still expect that part of his game to improve as he develops man strength.  Kid is still only 21 and will remain that until fairly late in the RS.

Scandella was good with him too, right? 

[Taro T]

3 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Scandella was good with him too, right? 

You're probably right on that count but that pairing wasn't used much at all.  He was far more often paired up w/ either Bogosian or Ristolainen his rookie year.