Face it, the plan for next year is another tank

[ubkev]

5 minutes ago, WildCard said:

I don't know how to describe it, but Cozens just seems different to me.

Better example, Josh Allen. Allen will do anything for his team to win (Eichel will too). But when Allen faces adversity he just seems to handle it a lot better than Jack does.

Winners win. 

[Thorny]

5 minutes ago, WildCard said:

I don't know how to describe it, but Cozens just seems different to me.

Better example, Josh Allen. Allen will do anything for his team to win (Eichel will too). But when Allen faces adversity he just seems to handle it a lot better than Jack does.

Fair enough I can't really challenge your perception. 

I will say my mind immediately conjured up Jack in the full on Bane mask telling Josh Allen, "ahh...you think you've faced adversity..I was born into it, molded by it.."

[WildCard]

1 minute ago, ubkev said:

Winners win. 

I am very interested to see how Jack and Risto do elsewhere. I know what Reinhart will be, a star. Jack and Risto...I really think they'll be the same duck in different feathers.

[Thorny]

2 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I agree that would Girgs and Cozens did in the NHL in their D+2 years is very similar and there is a chance Cozens could follow the same path. Cozens was pretty clearly ahead of him before that though, IMO.

• Girgensons was a 14th overall pick who put up 55 points in 49 games in the USHL
• Cozens was a 7th overall pick who put up 84 points in 68 games in the better WHL
• Girgensons put up 17 points in 61 games in the tough AHL and was considered one of the 30 best prospects in hockey
• Cozens put up 85 points in 51 games in the WHL and was considered one of the 5 best prospects in hockey
• Girgensons put up 22 points in 70 NHL games
• Cozens put up 13 points in 41 NHL games after dominating the WJC.

Of course, I am definitely not sitting here arguing that they are on the same track, at all, not close. Merely that I don't think we can rule out that Cozens is very liable to be affected by whatever atmosphere we take on in the next 1-2 years - due to his very, very small track record for NHL experience yet. He is still quite clearly being developed and molded into the player he will become - so unless he's immune, and his heart really is shaped like a Buffalo and he's the future cup-winning captain, my guess is we need to be careful with his development still. 

4 minutes ago, ubkev said:

Winners win. 

I remember Jack's goalie in the national championship catching the puck for a save, but then deciding to throw it in his own net because he realized Jack wasn't a winner

[PP Slapper]

Lose every game in sight for Wright 

[I-90 W]

Just now, PP Slapper said:

Lose every game in sight for Wright 

Understand the logic and it could be argued that the tank could have worked if GMTM didn’t panic and trade off all the prospects. But we have seen the havoc that a losing culture has done to this franchise. Get us a serviceable 1a goalie, some big boys to protect the kids, and who cares where we draft next season.

Let’s get some wins, us fans need it.

[JohnRobertEichel]

6 minutes ago, PP Slapper said:

Lose every game in sight for Wright 

Put competitive dignity to shame for Shane.

 

[PP Slapper]

4 minutes ago, TerryFolds said:

Put competitive dignity to shame for Shane.

 

Don’t put up a fight, we’re getting Shayne Wright 

[nucci]

11 minutes ago, I-90 W said:

Understand the logic and it could be argued that the tank could have worked if GMTM didn’t panic and trade off all the prospects. But we have seen the havoc that a losing culture has done to this franchise. Get us a serviceable 1a goalie, some big boys to protect the kids, and who cares where we draft next season.

Let’s get some wins, us fans need it.

so do the current players. Constant losing will not help their development

[PP Slapper]

Don’t play too hard, we need Connor Bedard 

[ubkev]

17 minutes ago, Thorny said:

 

I remember Jack's goalie in the national championship catching the puck for a save, but then deciding to throw it in his own net because he realized Jack wasn't a winner

Guess he probably should have score a goal then.

[woods-racer]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

Just isn't true. 

Maybe in retrospect, but we had plenty of players down there we thought at the time would be NHL difference makers:

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0000032016.html

Bailey. Carrier. Rodrigues. Baptiste. Guhle. Pysyk. Cornel. Kea. Ullmark. 

These were guys, many second or first round picks, we expected to graduate and make a difference on the big club. I get the willingness to say it's deeper now and that may be true, but it wasn't some "nothing much" barren wasteland at that time. 

We can elevate the Cozens and the Dahlins and the Mittelstadts (and the Reinharts and the Nylanders the first time) and what not, but once you go down further than that, to the Rosens and the Poltapovs of the world, we were viewing the Baileys and the Guhles in the same way. 

 

We have had a very bad farm team system since 2005-06. This stretch of bad has pre-dated the Pegula's and wasn't till JBotts that it started to turn around. The Americans have made the playoff 7 times since 05-06 and when they did they never got by the first round. 

There was no basic support or coaching system that taught players how to be NHL ready. The Americs weren't even considered part of the solution till JBotts. When the young *crop* came up and played well for the Sabres last year we finally got to see how a proper team works their farm teams. We've never had that in recent history,  that's why we have never seen it till now.  The cupboards had some high draft picks sure, but no players ready to play. That's a monumental difference. 

I've read on how long Pittsburgh prepared for Mario when they tanked. They had one of the deepest and oldest farm teams when he got drafted. The Sabres had no clue.

[Taro T]

44 minutes ago, darksabre said:

The biggest failure of the tank was always that, although we had a farm system, it wasn't filled with players who were ready to make the jump immediately. We had to wait for them. The second biggest failure was that we jettisoned way more of the good veterans than was necessary to achieve a historically bad team. They went much further with the gutting than Pittsburgh did and it put them on the back foot from day one.

IMHO, the biggest failure of the tank was that they kept on bringing in GMs with completely different views of how to build a team & of what sort of players the GM placed value upon.

Have focused that discussion on the rebuild, but it was an issue w/ the tank itself.  Regier dumped the coach for one completely out of his element & gutted most of the skaters but kept the goaltending intact.  Unfortunately, while he achieved his goal of "suffering" he did it too well and the product was unwatchable.

Murray followed and was saddled with a coach that could motivate bad/average players to punch above their weight class.  To still successfully complete the tank he needed to jettison every goalie that could at least stop a beachball and still more talent.  He wasn't concerned about becoming another Filly once he started replenishing the skater ranks because he KNEW he had the right goalie for the rebuild.  Minus the concussion he would have, & minus the ankle injury he MIGHT have.  But in the 2nd period of his 1st game that plan went to heck but his lack of people skills kept him from ever realizing it.

Had Murray started the tank or been able to select his coach, maybe every useful skater doesn't get traded away during the tank.  Had Regier finished it, they still likely would've had goaltending and maybe even some skaters left because Rolston really was THAT bad.  And there is almost no way that the Myers/Kane trade gets made so the guys that young Eichel & Reinhart gravitated towards never would've come to town.

Yes, gutting the team to the extent it was gutted hurt the rebuild, but still believe that was a product of having radically different philosophies in the GM role.  Regier wanted guys that could play speed & finesse (while having 1-2 bruisers on D) regardless of whether they were big or small & didn't care that they played small (other than the 1 or 2 bruisers on D).  Murray wanted to play a heavy game and wanted big guys that could forecheck hard.  Murray was going to remake what he had regardless. 

And Botterill was going to do likewise and now we get Adams doing it as well.  But Adams seems to be back to what Regier's plan seemed it would become, more or less.  But instead of being in year 2 of the rebuilding after the teardown was done, we're in year 6 of it and it's getting reset back to essentially year 1 of the rebuild.  One of these times they'll get it right, maybe Adams is on the right track.  But there is no evidence to say "yes, he absolutely is" and still am not convinced that they couldn't be getting it right this off-season supplanting what they had rather than tearing it down again.

[LGR4GM]

To tag on to what Taro has said, the Sabres for the first time in years, has drafted a type of player in back to back players. High motor, feisty, skilled. Peterka and Poltapov are basically the same thing. The rest of this draft also reflects that with high motor guys that aren't afraid of physical contact. Skill varies for sure but there's an archetype for the first time in at least a decade. 

[woods-racer]

13 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

To tag on to what Taro has said, the Sabres for the first time in years, has drafted a type of player in back to back players. High motor, feisty, skilled. Peterka and Poltapov are basically the same thing. The rest of this draft also reflects that with high motor guys that aren't afraid of physical contact. Skill varies for sure but there's an archetype for the first time in at least a decade. 

Would you sum up JBotts as BPA by some sort of ranking metrics? He didn't seem to have a certain player that he was after to me.

Edited July 27, 2021 by woods-racer

[Taro T]

Just now, woods-racer said:

Would you sum up JBotts as BPA by some sort of ranking metrics? He didn't seem to have a certain player that he was after to me.

Botterill didn't have a type?  Really?  About 90 veteran RHD & another 70 prospect LHD would like to say 'hi.'

[woods-racer]

6 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Botterill didn't have a type?  Really?  About 90 veteran RHD & another 70 prospect LHD would like to say 'hi.'

So he only drafted defensemen Mr. Smarty pants?

KA drafted 2 defensemen then *High motor, feisty, skilled* as Liger puts it.

Did you see that in JBotts in any way, shape or form? 

 

Edit:

JBots and KA have one drafting trait they share, they love to be able to get kids that get to brew a few years before they get their ELCs.

Edited July 27, 2021 by woods-racer

[Taro T]

3 minutes ago, woods-racer said:

So he only drafted defensemen Mr. Smarty pants?

KA drafted 2 defensemen then *High motor, feisty, skilled* as Liger puts it.

Did you see that in JBotts in any way, shape or form? 

What we saw from Botterill was a desire to have a player remain Sabres property for 4 years.  That was his overarching, all encompassing philosophy.  Beyond that, he loved D.  Didn't notice any other particular trends.

[sabrefanday1]

so we are all trying to say that the team is finally getting it right? Maybe so but any team that is any good is strong down the middle and after we give away Jack we will be really weak and we have no prospects at center as we keep drafting wingers and d-men. I guess if we keep tanking sooner or later we'll get a star center that we can keep. You gotta have a star center I think but maybe I'm, wrong...

[PerreaultForever]

We are going down harder than Tage.

https://www.hockeyfights.com/fights/n262092

Now own up. Which 2 of you voted for him as the winner? Whoever you are you win as the ultimate fans I guess. 

[DarthEbriate]

3 hours ago, Taro T said:

What we saw from Botterill was a desire to have a player remain Sabres property for 4 years.  That was his overarching, all encompassing philosophy.  Beyond that, he loved D.  Didn't notice any other particular trends.

Exactly. JBott in summation: willing to give up mid-range picks for anyone (preferably if they played with Pittsburgh (say, Scott Wilson) and to draft puck-moving D. Preferably in NCAA or Europe for the extra years.

JBott in detail - because it's fun! 1st move: Antipin. Followed by: Beaulieu, Laaksonen, Bryson, Fedun, Pilut, Paquette-Bisson, Redmond, (Dahlin-obviously), Samuelsson, Kronholm, Kukkonen, Worge Kreu, Johnson, Miller, Jokiharju. Final move: signing Laaksonen's ELC.

[sabresparaavida]

I think it’s becoming more clear that the plan is to tank next year, and this draft furthered that idea in my mind. We drafted a defender and a lot of wingers. Our left side should be set for a while in a year or 2 from just our pipeline. Wingers could still use some help, but there’s potential to round out most of the wings on the roster. We’re still short on some RHD. We may be alright at G, but it’s hard to tell. Our C pipeline is obviously weak with Cozens and Mitts the only centers in the system with top 6 potential once Eichel is gone. However, if we pick in the top 3 next year, that would change to having a great 1C prospect, and 2 solid 2C prospects. 
 

If the best returns we get from an Eichel trade are wings or RHD, this further cements the idea of the Sabres tanking now.

[Thorny]

8 hours ago, woods-racer said:

 

We have had a very bad farm team system since 2005-06. This stretch of bad has pre-dated the Pegula's and wasn't till JBotts that it started to turn around. The Americans have made the playoff 7 times since 05-06 and when they did they never got by the first round. 

There was no basic support or coaching system that taught players how to be NHL ready. The Americs weren't even considered part of the solution till JBotts. When the young *crop* came up and played well for the Sabres last year we finally got to see how a proper team works their farm teams. We've never had that in recent history,  that's why we have never seen it till now.  The cupboards had some high draft picks sure, but no players ready to play. That's a monumental difference. 

I've read on how long Pittsburgh prepared for Mario when they tanked. They had one of the deepest and oldest farm teams when he got drafted. The Sabres had no clue.

This is ridiculous. There were *several* years during that stretch we were ranked at or near the top of the system strength lists. There's so much revisionist history going on right now

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

This is ridiculous. There were *several* years during that stretch we were ranked at or near the top of the system strength lists. There's so much revisionist history going on right now

Depends how you look at it. Seems to me though that most of those high ranked years didn't turn out to be reality as few of the prospects amounted to anything in the NHL. Too many Baileys and Baptistes. 

[Thorny]

2 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Depends how you look at it. Seems to me though that most of those high ranked years didn't turn out to be reality as few of the prospects amounted to anything in the NHL. Too many Baileys and Baptistes. 

Exactly my point. It looked great - but it didn't turn out that way. Our pool is starting to look good now, too - it just doesn't mean anything until we see the results. Too many saying the pool was bad last time - it wasn't perceived that way at the time, and we can't judge our current stock, in the best light right now, sans results, against the results from the first time.