Sabres Head Coaching Search

[BMWR100RT]

On 5/24/2021 at 11:25 AM, Thorny said:

What I'm taking a "stand" on is the Cup being the goal. For me, it's not. Being entertained is the goal, and for me that involves being a winning hockey team. A winning hockey team in the NHL generally makes the playoffs. 

I've experienced runs in the playoffs where we only got half way (won 2 series) that I can confidently say have given me some of my best memories, and for me provide the joy necessary to justify the amount of time I put into the team. Any team making it can fluke off a series win or two, it's just about making it and being in the conversation. 

It's simple math - win more than you lose and you enjoy more than you don't. Winning more than you lose in a league where half the teams make the playoffs means being a winning team generally gets you in - playoffs are just a symptom of being a winning hockey team.

That's all I want, to be entertained - a winning hockey team. 50/50 odds going into any season? To me that's logical. 

This. I want to have a meaningful last game of the regular season. Win and in, or win and a better seed. Too many times lately my trips to Buffalo has been to watch non-meaningful hockey in a morgue-like atmosphere. Oh, and while I'm going full curmudgeon, I miss the ramps at the Aud.

[nfreeman]

30 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

So... based on literally nothing you present a case to make Terry look innocent against charges painstakingly put together over the course of years. Some is direct evidence, some is circumstantial. The conclusion is almost unavoidable. Smoking guns? On Ehrhoff: there's a video of Terry's kids talking about how much Dad liked Ehrhoff. On Leino and Ehrhoff: there's Terry calling into WGR and defending himself against other owners, saying the signings were his decision. On the tank there's Darcy on WGR saying he liked the Wild rebuild and the extent of the rebuild would be Terry's call. On his relationship with GMJB, one of the two said they spoke three times a day. You have Terry in the war room, Terry at the draft table, Terry on a plane to woo Regehr, Terry sitting up top next to Bales, Terry going to the GM side when he and Kim got to the arena offices.

Honestly I think sometimes I'm the one being trolled.

If something is "painstakingly put together" out of hot air, conjecture, fear and loathing, does that make it real?

My recollection is that the Ehrhoff "evidence" was your interpretation of one of TP's daughter's tweets.

As for the Leino, Ehrhoff and tank "decisions" -- as I and others have said many times, there's a world of difference between authorizing a GM to take the GM's recommended course of action, and instructing the GM to pursue a certain course of action.  I don't think you've introduced, painstakingly or otherwise, a shred of evidence to support your heartfelt position that TP instructed DR to implement those courses of action.

And of course, pretty much every owner speaks regularly with his GM, sits in the war room, etc.

[LTS]

28 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

It's a strained analogy. Would you like to present strategy to an owner who won the lottery and bought your business and has demonstrated for a decade he doesn't know what he is doing and has actually run the business into the ground?

If I want to continue to have a job in that organization, yes.  It's not really about what I like but what I have to do.  I write this as I procrastinate working late into tonight to finish consolidating 5 slides into 1 at the bequest of my boss, so he can be prepped to present to the board at our corporate strategy meetings in two weeks.  The request is absolutely stupid but the board feels better when you parade unicorns and rainbows in front of them.

Not once in 10 years at this company has anything that was road mapped out more than 6 months ever stayed on the roadmap because the company will undergo some change that will take it in another direction.  That, however, does not stop the board from asking me today what my roadmap for the second half of 2022 is.

Pure, wasted, effort.

But I do it because I get paid well enough and I'm not interested in finding another job at this time.

In the case of Kevyn Adams, he knew how the Pegulas operated.  He clearly was comfortable taking on the baggage.  It's just not that uncommon.  The real question will be, what do the Pegulas do with what Adams presents?

 

[Radar]

1 hour ago, PASabreFan said:

I'm not sure I did. You'd also make your managers travel to Florida at a time when clearly they have better ways to spend their time at home.

I ask this with respect not accusing. Have you or are you in a position of management with a company? If you are or have been was this your experience?

[PASabreFan]

54 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

If something is "painstakingly put together" out of hot air, conjecture, fear and loathing, does that make it real?

My recollection is that the Ehrhoff "evidence" was your interpretation of one of TP's daughter's tweets.

As for the Leino, Ehrhoff and tank "decisions" -- as I and others have said many times, there's a world of difference between authorizing a GM to take the GM's recommended course of action, and instructing the GM to pursue a certain course of action.  I don't think you've introduced, painstakingly or otherwise, a shred of evidence to support your heartfelt position that TP instructed DR to implement those courses of action.

And of course, pretty much every owner speaks regularly with his GM, sits in the war room, etc.

Darcy told us that he would be instructed by Terry re: the rebuild. You can call Regier a liar, but don't tell me that's not evidence of meddling.

You don't like me and begrudge me a "my bad, you were right." That's all this is. Envy that you didn't think of it first.

Here's your chance to stop being lazy. Prove that every owner does what Terry has done. Links, please. You can do it Dudacek-style, franchise by franchise. Too busy? It'll be far less work than I've put into exposing TRPWRTE.

Edited May 25, 2021 by PASabreFan

[LabattBlue]

1 hour ago, PASabreFan said:

So... based on literally nothing you present a case to make Terry look innocent against charges painstakingly put together over the course of years. Some is direct evidence, some is circumstantial. The conclusion is almost unavoidable. Smoking guns? On Ehrhoff: there's a video of Terry's kids talking about how much Dad liked Ehrhoff. On Leino and Ehrhoff: there's Terry calling into WGR and defending himself against other owners, saying the signings were his decision. On the tank there's Darcy on WGR saying he liked the Wild rebuild and the extent of the rebuild would be Terry's call. On his relationship with GMJB, one of the two said they spoke three times a day. You have Terry in the war room, Terry at the draft table, Terry on a plane to woo Regehr, Terry sitting up top next to Bales, Terry going to the GM side when he and Kim got to the arena offices.

Honestly I think sometimes I'm the one being trolled.

Bravo!!!  At the risk of repeating myself, there is no doubt in my mind that the Pegula’s are meddling, and this decade of futility is mostly the fault of said owners.  

[PASabreFan]

58 minutes ago, Radar said:

I ask this with respect not accusing. Have you or are you in a position of management with a company? If you are or have been was this your experience?

No, but what does it matter? I've said time and again the business analogy doesn't work. You've got a chef here trying to rework the menu of a failing world class restaurant and the owner who doesn't know a spatula from a hole in the ground wants in on food sourcing decisions. I mean, sure, he owns the place. Who cares? Creative people don't want the interference. Go tell Spielberg to not hold the shot too long on Lincoln's tortured face.

Edited May 25, 2021 by PASabreFan

[nfreeman]

45 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Darcy told us that he would be instructed by Terry re: the rebuild. You can call Regier a liar, but don't tell me that's not evidence of meddling.

You don't like me and begrudge me a "my bad, you were right." That's all this is. Envy that you didn't think of it first.

Here's your chance to stop being lazy. Prove that every owner does what Terry has done. Links, please. You can do it Dudacek-style, franchise by franchise. Too busy? It'll be far less work than I've put into exposing TRPWRTE.

My recollection is that Darcy said the extent of the rebuild would be up to the owner — ie that the owner ultimately had to sign off on the plan — not that the owner would develop a plan and instruct Darcy to implement it.

The actual words matter.  You can’t just change a few of them and take the changed quote as evidence in your trial.  

And I do like you.  You’ve got flaws, just like me and everyone else here, but you have a good sense of humor and more importantly you seem like a good, charitable person.

I’ll see what I can come up with on the other owners.  It won’t be as comprehensive as dudacek’s work, of course.  

[Radar]

1 hour ago, PASabreFan said:

No, but what does it matter? I've said time and again the business analogy doesn't work. You've got a chef here trying to rework the menu of a failing world class restaurant and the owner who doesn't know a spatula from a hole in the ground wants in on food sourcing decisions. I mean, sure, he owns the place. Who cares? Creative people don't want the interference. Go tell Spielberg to not hold the shot too long on Lincoln's tortured face.

Thanks, you answered the question honestly.

[Radar]

1 hour ago, LabattBlue said:

Bravo!!!  At the risk of repeating myself, there is no doubt in my mind that the Pegula’s are meddling, and this decade of futility is mostly the fault of said owners.  

Yes,  being the owners is where the futility ultimately lies. Still you and PA are expressing personal opinions not evidence of specifics.

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

It's a strained analogy. Would you like to present strategy to an owner who won the lottery and bought your business and has demonstrated for a decade he doesn't know what he is doing and has actually run the business into the ground?

There isn't a front office staff in the NHL that doesn't meet with their owner/s for an end of the season assessment and a strategy presentation for proceeding in the future. The Rangers' owner is Anthony Dolan. It is universally acknowledged that he is one of the worst owners in all of sports. He is one of the most mocked and scorned owners in all of sports. However, when he calls for a meeting of the staff they report because subordinates are required to report to their boss/bosses. What you don't seem to understand is that reporting to the boss/owner is an essential requirement of the staff's job. It doesn't matter whether the employees have a lot of respect or not for their owners' hockey acumen. It is an essential and required part of the job to keep the owner informed as to what is going on with the business that he owns.   

[Taro T]

2 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

It's a strained analogy. Would you like to present strategy to an owner who won the lottery and bought your business and has demonstrated for a decade he doesn't know what he is doing and has actually run the business into the ground?

 

Except, the same 'clueless' owners that meddle & interfere in the Sabres affairs appear to do the EXACT SAME THINGS with the Bills but with much better results.

The issue isn't the Pegulas.  The issue is as of 1 year ago, though they hired the right people to run the Bills, they've not hired the right people to run the Sabres.  Is Adams and the guy he chooses to be the next non-interim coach going to be the right people?  Hope so but the jury is still out.  There's been a lot of upheaval but no tangible results yet.

If Adams & whomever is behind the bench come October are the right people, the Pegulas will look like they've figured it out and their $'s will be a tangible asset that will go a long way towards having the facilities & support that will make players want to come & stay here.  If the hires aren't, then them being 2 years out from their 5th GM in 12 years will continue to be a bigger drag on the franchise.

On the plus side, Adams seems confident in knowing what he wants to do & has brought in a very well respected Karmanos to help him enact that vision.  On the minus side, he's 1 year beyond being barely more experienced than the people posting here.

Again, hoping he makes the right choice here.  Doubting it ends up Gallant now, which will be a shame.  At a minimum he's been available 2 times when the Sabres have been on the lookout for a new coach & there seems to be no interest at all in bringing him in.

But as soon as the GM/coach are right, the owners become an asset.  Until then, they're a liability. Figure they have to get it right at some point.  Illitch seemed to be a rube too when he started out.  (He even had the audacity to change (tweak really) the beloved classic old school unis.  The horror!  But he did go back to them.)  He got the right management team & became 1 of the best owners in hockey.

[dudacek]

4 hours ago, Radar said:

You began by saying may or may not be true. I used the word evidence. My opinion is that many , like myself, are not happy with the state of the franchise and ultimately that falls on the owners. But some because of their displeasure with the owners take every negative speculation as gospel truth and have an agenda to make the owners look as bad as they can. Go back to my posts and you will see that my problem with the owners is their hiring. Specifically general managers. I have no idea or evidence beyond some posters speculations about the direct meddling they speculate that has gone on. This has come to the point of evil speculations on why management would even meet with ownership. How absurd! What business structure have they been in or seen where this communication is not normal?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For the record, I see nothing at all wrong with Adams having to present and justify his plans to the owner; on the contrary, it’s how I expect business to be run.

I also think financial decisions, like the gutting of the hockey department and the decision to trade ROR before his bonus kicked in, are also well within the purview of the owner, even if they are clearly detrimental to the hockey department.

I think those are two cases where there is clear evidence where Terry clearly meddled to the detriment of the on-ice product.

I think direct evidence is lacking in cases like Ehrhoff and Girgensons, but Occam’s Razor works for me.

I also think Terry’s presence on the draft room floor or the war room during free agency is more than what one typically sees from an owner, and is less than optimal for the functioning of your hockey department.

What do you think?

[PASabreFan]

2 hours ago, nfreeman said:

My recollection is that Darcy said the extent of the rebuild would be up to the owner — ie that the owner ultimately had to sign off on the plan — not that the owner would develop a plan and instruct Darcy to implement it.

That's a real stretch. The actual quote was that the extent of the rebuild would be determined by the owner. There was going to be a rebuild. Darcy might have agreed with the necessity of doing so. But he was telling us in the spring of 2013 that he wasn't going to make the decision on what kind of rebuild it was going to be, Terry was.

[PASabreFan]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

There isn't a front office staff in the NHL that doesn't meet with their owner/s for an end of the season assessment and a strategy presentation for proceeding in the future. The Rangers' owner is Anthony Dolan. It is universally acknowledged that he is one of the worst owners in all of sports. He is one of the most mocked and scorned owners in all of sports. However, when he calls for a meeting of the staff they report because subordinates are required to report to their boss/bosses. What you don't seem to understand is that reporting to the boss/owner is an essential requirement of the staff's job. It doesn't matter whether the employees have a lot of respect or not for their owners' hockey acumen. It is an essential and required part of the job to keep the owner informed as to what is going on with the business that he owns.   

It's a strained analogy because the hockey department isn't a business, and the owner isn't its boss.

I'll die on this hill, dreaming, looking into the sky and seeing Rick's suspenders and Spacek in that fur coat in the clouds.

 

[JohnC]

51 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

It's a strained analogy because the hockey department isn't a business, and the owner isn't its boss.

I'll die on this hill, dreaming, looking into the sky and seeing Rick's suspenders and Spacek in that fur coat in the clouds.

 

You don't think that when the Pegulas ordered the gutting of the scouting department and replaced the staff with a reliance on videos that it wasn't a business decision? You don't think that variable pricing for games isn't a business decision? You don't think that Pegula was the influencer in trading ROR before his bonus kicked in? Let's get real here. 

[Taro T]

18 minutes ago, JohnC said:

You don't think that when the Pegulas ordered the gutting of the scouting department and replaced the staff with a reliance on videos that it wasn't a business decision? You don't think that variable pricing for games isn't a business decision? You don't think that Pegula was the influencer in trading ROR before his bonus kicked in? Let's get real here. 

You think variable pricing was a HOCKEY decision?

🤔

[Kristian]

19 hours ago, Zamboni said:

As an owner …. IF I took a “hands off let the hockey guys handle it” approach,  you are damn right I’d want to know what’s going on with my investment. Thru phone calls, video calls AND in person meetings. And I’d have them come to me for those meetings unless I was in the area already. And again IF I was hands off, I would just want to listen and jib jab with the men and women I entrust with my investment. If nothing sounded massively outrageous and wrong, I’d be cool with it all. 

Not that I disagree with any of this, I was merely commenting - as a fan - on the prospect of having people who are evidently hockey-clueless making hockey-decisions. Again.

[Kristian]

17 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Don't tell anyone but the Pegula's own the team.

Are they gonna be involved in who the next equipment guy is, too?

[Radar]

10 hours ago, dudacek said:

For the record, I see nothing at all wrong with Adams having to present and justify his plans to the owner; on the contrary, it’s how I expect business to be run.

I also think financial decisions, like the gutting of the hockey department and the decision to trade ROR before his bonus kicked in, are also well within the purview of the owner, even if they are clearly detrimental to the hockey department.

I think those are two cases where there is clear evidence where Terry clearly meddled to the detriment of the on-ice product.

I think direct evidence is lacking in cases like Ehrhoff and Girgensons, but Occam’s Razor works for me.

I also think Terry’s presence on the draft room floor or the war room during free agency is more than what one typically sees from an owner, and is less than optimal for the functioning of your hockey department.

What do you think?

Well, I believe I've seen ownership represented on draft rooms in various sports. So that doesn't particularly bother me. Again Terry/Kim need to hire better managers. I've been a long time advocate for an experienced hockey executive to come in as head of hockey operations. Disappointed this hasn't been done.

[Brawndo]

 

[Radar]

16 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

 

Not a fan but I guess he has experience. I'll go witn Donato over him for sure.

[JohnC]

10 hours ago, Taro T said:

You think variable pricing was a HOCKEY decision?

🤔

You misread my comments. I said it was a business decision. 

[Thorny]

17 minutes ago, JohnC said:

You misread my comments. I said it was a business decision. 

Of course it's a business, but it's more akin to a "business" in the way the movie industry is a business, I'd argue. There's a lot of Art, here, being an entertainment product. 

The reason Spider-Man 3 sucked is because the studio (the bosses, the people who own, the people who write the cheques) got in Raimi's (the artist's) face and made him shoehorn stuff into the movie that he didn't plan for. Along comes an artist w/ The Last Jedi and the studio gets cold feet after it's release and steps in to change the direction of the franchise and the result is the putrid Rise of Skywalker. 

David Heyman was the head honcho on the Harry Potter films and what did he do after the reasonable critical success, but record-setting box office performance of the fairly cookie-cutter first two films? He brought in Alfonso Cuaron, one of the best directors in the world, 2-time best director Oscar winner (now, but at the time rather unproven, and an ARTIST to be sure), and gave him free reign in shaping (see: re-shaping) the 3rd movie (and the world and it's tones, therein) into what's regarded as the true launching point of the series. 

And that was a proven, money making series before they brought Cuaron aboard (again, unproven at the time in NA) - a license to print money. Yet the business brought in the artist,  and let the artist do his thing, free from studio pressure, at great risk - and reaped the rewards in what became one of the most successful movie franchises of all time. 

If you trust your judgement, the only choice IMO is to let the guy you've chosen to bring in, and give the job to, the freedom to do that job unshackled. 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Thorny

[PASabreFan]

Me so Thorny.