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40 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Here's another way of looking at it: Is Will Borgen really one of this team's 8 or even 10 best players?

A young physical D is harder to replace than a middle level winger.

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48 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Here's another way of looking at it: Is Will Borgen really one of this team's 8 or even 10 best players?

He will easily be one of this team's 8 most important players when they are winning a lot of hockey games again

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One thing that is overlooked in this Situation, is that there is a fear Adams has minimal relationships with other GMs around the league, however Ron Francis and Adams played together in Carolina so He could use that to His Advantage.

Would sending the lower of the two third round picks to Seattle with the understanding they take Colin Miller be worth it? 

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2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Ppl are slowly convincing me to keep Ristolainen. I went from no way to maybe...

Animated GIF

I look at Savard getting a 1st at the deadline and want to hold onto Him for this very reason. 

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20 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

He will easily be one of this team's 8 most important players when they are winning a lot of hockey games again

The concept of Will Borgen is strong.

18 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

One thing that is overlooked in this Situation, is that there is a fear Adams has minimal relationships with other GMs around the league, however Ron Francis and Adams played together in Carolina so He could use that to His Advantage.

Would sending the lower of the two third round picks to Seattle with the understanding they take Colin Miller be worth it? 

This is exactly the move I would be making. And I would take it, if I was Francis.

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42 minutes ago, dudacek said:

The concept of Will Borgen is strong.

This is exactly the move I would be making. And I would take it, if I was Francis.

Sometimes you need to make the move that isn't obvious to the casual observer at the time of the move. Combining this with the fact that it shouldn't be too hard to get Seattle to not take Will Borgen, since he isn't exactly seen as a prime asset, there is simply no good reason to hand the guy away because Risto has played more hockey games to date even if he is going to leave next year

We should always be on the lookout for the guy that can make us laugh at what we thought years prior - "man, to think I was willing to let THIS GUY get away to keep THAT GUY." Working with the deck only as it is stacked today is the perfect way to never ever hit a home run 

No guarantee that Will is that guy, there never is. But this is the philosophy that allows Tampa to churn out a surprise new 20+goal forward every single year that nobody has ever heard of. And the "cons" list of finding a way to avoid losing Borgen (what, losing a 3rd rounder and Colin Miller?) is vanishingly small.

 

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34 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Sometimes you need to make the move that isn't obvious to the casual observer at the time of the move. Combining this with the fact that it shouldn't be too hard to get Seattle to not take Will Borgen, since he isn't exactly seen as a prime asset, there is simply no good reason to hand the guy away because Risto has played more hockey games to date even if he is going to leave next year

We should always be on the lookout for the guy that can make us laugh at what we thought years prior - "man, to think I was willing to let THIS GUY get away to keep THAT GUY." Working with the deck only as it is stacked today is the perfect way to never ever hit a home run 

No guarantee that Will is that guy, there never is. But this is the philosophy that allows Tampa to churn out a surprise new 20+goal forward every single year that nobody has ever heard of. And the "cons" list of finding a way to avoid losing Borgen (what, losing a 3rd rounder and Colin Miller?) is vanishingly small.

 

Not saying you're wrong. I am saying the amount of faith some are putting in Borgen relative to what they've seen him do is considerable.

It's a hard conversation to have on a forum because it is inextricably tied to to what you think of Risto, which ranges from "top 3" to "shouldn't be in the lineup"

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1 minute ago, dudacek said:

Not saying you're wrong. I am saying the amount of faith some are putting in Borgen relative to what they've seen him do is considerable.

It's a hard conversation to have on a forum because it is inextricably tied to to what you think of Risto, which ranges from "top 3" to "shouldn't be in the lineup"

"faith" and "what they've seen him do [to this point]" dance around as incomplete descriptors of the exact regime we need to be operating in to get out of this mess, and maybe even become great one day 

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3 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

"faith" and "what they've seen him do [to this point]" dance around as incomplete descriptors of the exact regime we need to be operating in to get out of this mess, and maybe even become great one day 

Exactly. The new regime needs to recognize and nurture the right players. Borgen might be one.

But why are you, @Randall Flagg so convinced that he is?

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21 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Exactly. The new regime needs to recognize and nurture the right players. Borgen might be one.

But why are you, @Randall Flagg so convinced that he is?

It came to me in a dream.

But really, there isn't some peer-reviewed study and film breakdown in existence that I can show off to say this is definitely happening. I've seen a couple Rochester games, read the threads and talk about him, and watched him play those few games in the NHL. I saw positioning, processing speed, calmness that Tage and Mitts would have killed for in their first couple years, orders of magnitude higher. Watching what a competent staff has done with those two, I'm just not interested in taking a player with an ideal stylistic game, an ideal "concept," and sending him off to watch another team unlock it when the hardest part (processing speed) is already taken care of naturally.

Just like several factors found a way to take a 7th rounder with a good shot and turn him into what Olofsson is today, there is no reason a sufficiently motivated Borgen, surrounded by a competent staff, can't develop into our favorite defensemen from the 05-07 era Sabres

Also, I'm not one of the guys lining up to give Risto away for free, but he is a member of a distinctly different "space" than what we are talking about. A known quantity with an expiration date in Buffalo. So the base option available to us of protecting Risto because he's been in the lineup for years and Will is just getting a chance to give it a shot, doesn't make any sense to me when we will likely be able to dump a player none of us like at a small cost

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13 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Trade one or more of Eichel/Reinhart/Risto before the expansion draft and all problems solved. 

Perhaps, but that tells me we are willing to settle for picks and prospects vs. proven NHL talent.  Yes we may lose Risto in a year regardless, but I'd rather see some proven talent coming back to us as well, which may mean we have to protect that incoming talent as well.  Tough call!

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6 hours ago, pastajoe said:

I would go with 8 players and protect Risto as the 4th D, and expose Thompson, Bjork, and Olofsson. Any one of them can be replaced easier than Risto as a veteran D, who also would have greater trade value if it comes to that. Ruotsalainen can replace Olofsson as the PP sniper if needed.

 

Can't see a reason to give up their 5th best forward to keep their 4th best D-man when they have 10 picks in the upcoming draft & can likely accomplish the same thing by offering a 3rd & their 5th best D-man.

(Please note: rankings are only of those players that need to be protected to keep; guys like Cozens aren't included in the discussion.)

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I would go 7-3-1 and talk to Seattle about getting them to take Miller. If they really didn't want to or wanted too much in return, I explore the Risto trade market and see what's there before the expansion draft. If I have reason to believe that the return for Risto isnt significantly different before the ED compared to after, I make the trade and protect Will. If it's clear I that nobody wants Risto before, but I could do Risto-for-something-really-good after the ED, the decisions start to get trickier - essentially trading Borgen for whatever those returns could be, or not doing so. It's an impossible decision to make from my current position, which is ignorant to virtually all of the questions posed in this thought process. But would probably be pretty easy if I knew all of the info. 

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55 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Trade one or more of Eichel/Reinhart/Risto before the expansion draft and all problems solved. 

How?

 

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1 minute ago, Randall Flagg said:

I would go 7-3-1 and talk to Seattle about getting them to take Miller. If they really didn't want to or wanted too much in return, I explore the Risto trade market and see what's there before the expansion draft. If I have reason to believe that the return for Risto isnt significantly different before the ED compared to after, I make the trade and protect Will. If it's clear I that nobody wants Risto before, but I could do Risto-for-something-really-good after the ED, the decisions start to get trickier - essentially trading Borgen for whatever those returns could be, or not doing so. It's an impossible decision to make from my current position, which is ignorant to virtually all of the questions posed in this thought process. But would probably be pretty easy if I knew all of the info. 

What do you think we could get for Will Borgen in a trade prior to the ED?

What about Risto?

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6 hours ago, Brawndo said:

One thing that is overlooked in this Situation, is that there is a fear Adams has minimal relationships with other GMs around the league, however Ron Francis and Adams played together in Carolina so He could use that to His Advantage.

Would sending the lower of the two third round picks to Seattle with the understanding they take Colin Miller be worth it? 

Yes

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2 hours ago, Taro T said:

Can't see a reason to give up their 5th best forward to keep their 4th best D-man when they have 10 picks in the upcoming draft & can likely accomplish the same thing by offering a 3rd & their 5th best D-man.

(Please note: rankings are only of those players that need to be protected to keep; guys like Cozens aren't included in the discussion.)

As you noted at the end, those 3 are not their 5th best forward. More likely their 7th or 8th when the youngsters are considered. But those 4 D are a solid core, and then you include Bryson, Samuelson, and even McCabe, and that’s a playoff caliber D.

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Let's alter our point of view slightly.  What do you do if they want a quality depth player such as Bjork in order to take Miller?  What is the maximum you would offer Seattle in picks to take Miller?  How do these answers change if you expose Ristolainen versus Borgen.  That would inform my decision more than other things.

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3 hours ago, dudacek said:

How?

 

Simple, we'll be bad for another 3 years so it won't matter who we lose. 

16 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

Let's alter our point of view slightly.  What do you do if they want a quality depth player such as Bjork in order to take Miller?  What is the maximum you would offer Seattle in picks to take Miller?  How do these answers change if you expose Ristolainen versus Borgen.  That would inform my decision more than other things.

I'd trade a 3rd and that's it. 

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17 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Simple, we'll be bad for another 3 years so it won't matter who we lose. 

I'd trade a 3rd and that's it. 

Would definitely give up the 2nd 3rd for it.  Giving up the higher one or that 2 that Hall brought in would be a tougher call but possible.  10 years of missing playoffs is too long itself.  That 2nd or early 3rd won't help prevent that streak reaching 12 or 13 years, but Borgen could help keep it from reaching 11.

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Another point to think about:

Given what people on other fanboards (e.g., hfboards) are posting the players whom their teams will protect, Seattle may put a premium on getting centres: there appear to be many good defencemen being expost and many of the 7th forwards being protected are the team's #3C.  Which of our forwards, who are likely to be exposed, qualify as NHL centres?  Is there a good reason to pick that centre over Miller?

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