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The Ralph Krueger put Jeff Skinner on the 4th line discussion including an excerpt from the instigators thread


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6 minutes ago, Thorny said:

The funny thing about Skinner is he looked exactly like Skinner always does. 

He did. And I have a lot of reservations about these lines, but maybe for different reasons than you:

 

1. I worry Thompson won't work on the 1st line.

 

2. I suspect Olofsson needs to be with Eichel.

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1 minute ago, erickompositör72 said:

I'd swap Skinner & Hall. I feel Hall is more north-south, and that works with Eichel on the rush 

Ya that could work too. 

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Don’t count on any significant lineup changes if Staal can go.  If he can’t you’ll probably see the following

Hall Eichel Thompson

Olofsson Eakin Reinhart

Rieder Lazar Cozens

Skinner Sheahan Asplund

Feel better?

Edited by GASabresIUFAN
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14 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Don’t count on any significant lineup changes if Staal can go.  If he can’t you’ll probably see the following

Hall Eichel Thompson

Olofsson Eakin Reinhart

Rieder Lazar Cozens

Skinner Sheahan Asplund

Fell better?

Krueger would have to be fired immediately for this

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1 hour ago, Thorny said:

The funny thing about Skinner is he looked exactly like Skinner always does. 

He did. He doesn’t need anybody else to be effective. The analytics in the other thread support that.

The Sabres didn’t lose tonight because of the “horrible” bottom six at all. They lost because of the top six. You know, the thing nobody was complaining about?

If Skinner should be moved to the top six, it’s because the top six needs his help, not because he needs theirs.

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6 minutes ago, dudacek said:

He did. He doesn’t need anybody else to be effective. The analytics in the other thread support that.

The Sabres didn’t lose tonight because of the “horrible” bottom six at all. They lost because of the top six. You know, the thing nobody was complaining about?

If Skinner should be moved to the top six, it’s because the top six needs his help, not because he needs theirs.

But it was always about this. We *need* Skinner's help. Krueger *needed* to find a better way to utilize Skinner. I stick with what I said pregame, it was an unacceptable decision in my mind.

Skinner doesn't need anyone else to be effective. But in order to translate that effectiveness into a good result for the team he needs someone of offensive competence to play with. 

The idea isn't that it's not ok to play Skinner with lesser players. It's that we forget around here that Lazar is a waiver level pick up. Sheahan is a waiver level pick up. I hate to say it cause I like Lazar, what I've seen of him, we are drawn to his effort level - he isn't going to score. He's not that player. 

We aren't playing our best ES goal scorer with sub optimal players, we might be playing him with AHLers. 

That's not ok. 

Edited by Thorny
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29 minutes ago, Thorny said:

But it was always about this. We *need* Skinner's help. Krueger *needed* to find a better way to utilize Skinner. I stick with what I said pregame, it was an unacceptable decision in my mind.

Skinner doesn't need anyone else to be effective. But in order to translate that effectiveness into a good result for the team he needs someone of offensive competence to play with. 

The idea isn't that it's not ok to play Skinner with lesser players. It's that we forget around here that Lazar is a waiver level pick up. Sheahan is a waiver level pick up. I hate to say it cause I like Lazar, what I've seen of him, we are drawn to his effort level - he isn't going to score. He's not that player. 

We aren't playing our best ES goal scorer with sub optimal players, we might be playing him non-prospect with AHLers. 

That's not ok. 

fixed.

There are guys in the AHL who are better players then Lazar and Sheahan. R2 is probably one of the those players.

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7 hours ago, Thorny said:

But it was always about this. We *need* Skinner's help. Krueger *needed* to find a better way to utilize Skinner. I stick with what I said pregame, it was an unacceptable decision in my mind.

Skinner doesn't need anyone else to be effective. But in order to translate that effectiveness into a good result for the team he needs someone of offensive competence to play with. 

The idea isn't that it's not ok to play Skinner with lesser players. It's that we forget around here that Lazar is a waiver level pick up. Sheahan is a waiver level pick up. I hate to say it cause I like Lazar, what I've seen of him, we are drawn to his effort level - he isn't going to score. He's not that player. 

We aren't playing our best ES goal scorer with sub optimal players, we might be playing him with AHLers. 

That's not ok. 

I wanna throw the other perspective out there.  Skinner almost certainly doesn't need anyone else to be effective, but his two linemates do need him to be playing within the same system they are playing for the line's effectiveness to be maximized.  I'm fairly sure Ralph's point here is that Skinner would be drawing down what Ralph wants Jack and RW1 doing with his freelance act.  Same with Staal and Sam.  So Ralph puts someone on those lines that will commit to the system to allow those two pairs to maximize their effectiveness within Ralph's system, And Skinner gets moved somewhere that has the least impact on the other two players. 

So why doesn't Ralph adapt to Skinner?  If the team is built for Ralph's system except one guy, why would you change the system when it is just one guy, AND Jeff's certainly capable of adapting himself to that system are both valid responses.

I understand and sympathize with both sides to the conversation here.  There are plenty of successful coaches who adapted to their stars, Muckler being one, and also plenty of successful coaches who bent the team to the coach's will, Trotts and Laviolette come to mind immediately.  Kreuger is of the Barry Trotts mold obviously.  Lots of criticism here for Ralph not willing to adapt.  Less so for Skinner not willing to adapt.  It's interesting for sure.  And in a short season there is virtually no time for this to be worked out.

Edited by Weave
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7 minutes ago, Weave said:

I wanna throw the other perspective out there.  Skinner almost certainly doesn't need anyone else to be effective, but his two linemates do need him to be playing within the same system they are playing for the line's effectiveness to be maximized.  I'm fairly sure Ralph's point here is that Skinner would be drawing down what Ralph wants Jack and RW1 doing with his freelance act.  Same with Staal and Sam.  So Ralph puts someone on those lines that will commit to the system to allow those two pairs to maximize their effectiveness within Ralph's system, And Skinner gets moved somewhere that has the least impact on the other two players. 

So why doesn't Ralph adapt to Skinner?  If the team is built for Ralph's system except one guy, why would you change the system when it is just one guy, AND Jeff's certainly capable of adapting himself to that system are both valid responses.

I understand and sympathize with both sides to the conversation here.  There are plenty of successful coaches who adapted to their stars, Muckler being one, and also plenty of successful coaches who bent the team to the coach's will, Trotts and Laviolette come to mind immediately.  Kreuger is of the Barry Trotts mold obviously.  Lots of criticism here for Ralph not willing to adapt.  Less so for Skinner not willing to adapt.  It's interesting for sure.  And in a short season there is virtually no time for this to be worked out.

Agree wth much of this but I'm not happy to bury one of my better goal scorers and 9/M a year contract on a third or fourth line on this team. I don't like it and hate that contract but it is what it is.

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17 minutes ago, Radar said:

Agree wth much of this but I'm not happy to bury one of my better goal scorers and 9/M a year contract on a third or fourth line on this team. I don't like it and hate that contract but it is what it is.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of it either, but I can't say with any confidence that I know what's the better move overall.

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10 hours ago, Thorny said:

Thompson - Ruotsalainen - Cozens (matchups - offensive kid line)

Rieder - Sheahan/Lazar - Okposo

This makes a lot of sense to me.  The kids can grow up while getting favourable match-ups.

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17 hours ago, LabattBlue said:

Normally I agree.  I don’t want a meddling owner...except when your HC is an idiot and can’t see how ridiculous his handling of Skinner is...who also is the 2nd highest paid player on the team for more years than any of us want to think about. 

How much a player gets paid and the length of his contract shouldn't be the determining considerations as to how he gets used. The coach makes the decisions on how to utilize players, and ultimately he will be held accountable on the results of his decisions. 

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We would probably feel better if our other third liners were Connolly-Pominville (2005-6) or Roy-Vanek (2006-7).  Hell, I'd feel better if it were even Paille-Stafford (2007-8).  Maybe another question should be how do we mimic that with our current roster?

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Sincerely hope Skinner gets it figured out. He hasn't played with linemates that can set him up in the shooting areas for a while now. It would be nice to see him with Eichel and Hall if RK will stop playing mind games and start to cultivate his talent again. 

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11 hours ago, Weave said:

I wanna throw the other perspective out there.  Skinner almost certainly doesn't need anyone else to be effective, but his two linemates do need him to be playing within the same system they are playing for the line's effectiveness to be maximized.  I'm fairly sure Ralph's point here is that Skinner would be drawing down what Ralph wants Jack and RW1 doing with his freelance act.  Same with Staal and Sam.  So Ralph puts someone on those lines that will commit to the system to allow those two pairs to maximize their effectiveness within Ralph's system, And Skinner gets moved somewhere that has the least impact on the other two players. 

So why doesn't Ralph adapt to Skinner?  If the team is built for Ralph's system except one guy, why would you change the system when it is just one guy, AND Jeff's certainly capable of adapting himself to that system are both valid responses.

I understand and sympathize with both sides to the conversation here.  There are plenty of successful coaches who adapted to their stars, Muckler being one, and also plenty of successful coaches who bent the team to the coach's will, Trotts and Laviolette come to mind immediately.  Kreuger is of the Barry Trotts mold obviously.  Lots of criticism here for Ralph not willing to adapt.  Less so for Skinner not willing to adapt.  It's interesting for sure.  And in a short season there is virtually no time for this to be worked out.

It's true. Ralph is right, I'm wrong. 

Board majority rules. 

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So Skinner is not playing the system well enough to deserve anything more than playing on the 4th line, but well enough that he isn’t in the press box?

C’mon Ralph aka Super Motivator...if you want to send him a message, put him upstairs...or would this make the Pegula’s look bad for signing off on this huge mistake of a contract?

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On 1/15/2021 at 6:51 AM, Weave said:

I wanna throw the other perspective out there.  Skinner almost certainly doesn't need anyone else to be effective, but his two linemates do need him to be playing within the same system they are playing for the line's effectiveness to be maximized.  I'm fairly sure Ralph's point here is that Skinner would be drawing down what Ralph wants Jack and RW1 doing with his freelance act.  Same with Staal and Sam.  So Ralph puts someone on those lines that will commit to the system to allow those two pairs to maximize their effectiveness within Ralph's system, And Skinner gets moved somewhere that has the least impact on the other two players. 

So why doesn't Ralph adapt to Skinner?  If the team is built for Ralph's system except one guy, why would you change the system when it is just one guy, AND Jeff's certainly capable of adapting himself to that system are both valid responses.

I understand and sympathize with both sides to the conversation here.  There are plenty of successful coaches who adapted to their stars, Muckler being one, and also plenty of successful coaches who bent the team to the coach's will, Trotts and Laviolette come to mind immediately.  Kreuger is of the Barry Trotts mold obviously.  Lots of criticism here for Ralph not willing to adapt.  Less so for Skinner not willing to adapt.  It's interesting for sure.  And in a short season there is virtually no time for this to be worked out.

Except Trotz bent his system for Ovie and Kuznetsov and won a Cup.  Skinner has been playing hard and has been coming back.  His reward more purgatory.  No one has yet to properly explain his O zone scheme.  I think there isn’t one, but maybe dump and chase.  Yes, it’s early this season and things will shake out, but so far RK is well on his way to destroying a 40 goal scorer.  He won’t get a 3rd coaching gig if he doesn’t learn to be more flexible.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I’m not saying Skinner is great away from the puck, but he at least seems to be putting the effort in offensively.  He is being wasted on the 4th line. If by the trade deadline, Ralphie still has him on the 4th line, I’d ask to be moved.   Of course with his contract, there will be no takers without the Sabres retaining a huge chunk. 

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https://twitter.com/SabresStats/status/1354267657944625153?s=20

 
 
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Most Shots on Goal without a Goal this season: 1. ℝ𝕒𝕤𝕞𝕦𝕤 𝔻𝕒𝕙𝕝𝕚𝕟 - 23 2. Jesse Puljujarvi - 22 3. Roman Josi - 20 4. 𝕁𝕖𝕗𝕗 𝕊𝕜𝕚𝕟𝕟𝕖𝕣, Drake Batherson & Ryan Ellis - 18 7. Kris Letang - 16 8. 𝔹𝕣𝕒𝕟𝕕𝕠𝕟 𝕄𝕠𝕟𝕥𝕠𝕦𝕣, Alex Edler & Nikita Gusev - 15
 
 
3
 
12
 
73
 
 


 

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