2021 NHL Draft Rankings

[LGR4GM]

You've been so disingenuous this entire discussion. Your entire strategy is attack attack attack. Then when I defend myself you do this *****, play the victim, and try to gaslight the conversation. 

Owen Power is not my best player in the draft for the reasons I have stated. Why don't we leave it at that. 

8 hours ago, Hoss said:

You're trying to have two different conversations and passing them off as the same thing. Nobody has ever said Power is Hedman. That's just a popular ceiling for him. Nobody on this board is saying he is a lock or even likely to become that. I've never seen anyone mention Lidstrom a single time when discussing Power but maybe I missed it.

Now, all of a sudden, it has changed to you hunting down people simply making a comparison. There is absolutely nothing wrong with anyone making the Hedman comparison. It's a fair CEILING projection (meaning incredibly unlikely) just like your Patrice Bergeron comparison for Beniers. Why is it fair to compare your favorite to a Hall of Famer but others cannot?

Wow. Keep moving those goalposts. 

[LGR4GM]

Not only has Power been compared to Hedman here but also in several news sources. But sure, "You have not see one person say Power is the second coming of Hedman" you are right those exact words have not been said. Just a lot of "he looks like hedman"

 

On 4/19/2021 at 11:57 AM, Brawndo said:

Stylistically, in large part because of his size and position, Power gets compared a lot to Tampa Bay Lightning defenceman Victor Hedman, who went No. 2 overall, behind John Tavares in the 2009 NHL draft. It’s a fair comparison so long as it comes with this qualifier from another NHL scout: “He does look and play like Hedman but if you were comparing [Power] to Hedman at the same age in his draft year, Hedman would be better [than Power] in pretty much every facet of the game.”

Beniers or Guenther please 

Here's an article from the athletic that makes the comparison. 

On 6/4/2021 at 11:10 PM, Hoss said:

The Bergeron comparison is definitely his absolute ceiling scenario, as is Hedman with Power. But no two players are truly alike so most of the time those NHL name drops are just a familiarity factor where you see certain elements of players you see doing it on NHL ice.

Here you are suggesting Power has the ceiling of Hedman

On 6/3/2021 at 6:54 AM, Hoss said:

I'm encouraged by the way Power talks about the game. He's got a few Hedman comparisons and in this Athletic article he doesn't just go "yea, we're both big and can skate." It's a more nuanced and understanding response.

He talks a lot about "thinking the game" in interviews. He clearly knows it's important to have the right mindset on the ice as much as being big or skating or being quick.

I've also noticed in a lot of clips that he's comfortable anywhere on the blueline - he glides with and without the puck to whatever open ice is there for him and really seems to understand the system he's in (note: this is mostly a guess because I obviously don't know the system but he looks like he's in control of his game). His offensive game will benefit a ton from his ability to be calm when pressured at the point.

Here you are talking about the comparisons and how close you think they are. 

On 6/3/2021 at 12:57 AM, pi2000 said:

Beniers reminds me of Mittlestadt.

His college season Casey had 30 points in 34 games, Beniers college season 24 points in 24 games 👀...  both in the BIG-10.  

Power is a beast, you can't teach his combination of size and skill.    He'll be a cornerstone for the next 15 years.... think Jones, Weber, Hedman, Pronger, Chara, Robinson, Burns, MacInnis, Blake, Murphy, etc... he's cut from the same cloth, you don't pass that up, ever. 

 

Here we are using a bunch of comparisons including Hedman. 

 

Again, the gaslighting is next level at this point. Hedman and Power were compared and it has been suggested multiple times in multiple ways that Power could be Hedman. Just like it has been said Beniers could be ROR. I think Beniers to ROR is more likely than Power to Hedman. 

[Huckleberry]

I don't know I have a feeling Eklund is going to be best of this draft.

Biggest problem I have with taking power/berniers they are playing on a very strong team.  I think in few years neither will be the best forward or defenseman in this draft.

[SwampD]

13 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Not only has Power been compared to Hedman here but also in several news sources. But sure, "You have not see one person say Power is the second coming of Hedman" you are right those exact words have not been said. Just a lot of "he looks like hedman"

 

Here's an article from the athletic that makes the comparison. 

Here you are suggesting Power has the ceiling of Hedman

Here you are talking about the comparisons and how close you think they are. 

Here we are using a bunch of comparisons including Hedman. 

 

Again, the gaslighting is next level at this point. Hedman and Power were compared and it has been suggested multiple times in multiple ways that Power could be Hedman. Just like it has been said Beniers could be ROR. I think Beniers to ROR is more likely than Power to Hedman. 

Can we please have have a LGR approved ceiling for Power, to be used going forward, so we don’t have to read one of these overly sensitive posts crying about our uninformed incorrect comparisons?

Of which we weren’t.

[LGR4GM]

27 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

I don't know I have a feeling Eklund is going to be best of this draft.

Biggest problem I have with taking power/berniers they are playing on a very strong team.  I think in few years neither will be the best forward or defenseman in this draft.

We should absolutely talk about Eklund and Beniers' flaws. Both have a chance at being the pick even if it is low. 

11 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Can we please have have a LGR approved ceiling for Power, to be used going forward, so we don’t have to read one of these overly sensitive posts crying about our uninformed incorrect comparisons?

Of which we weren’t.

PPL do something, I say idk if that's right, get attacked, get told ppl didn't say something, not get called "overly sensitive and crying". 

You have a good day. 

[JohnC]

11 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Can we please have have a LGR approved ceiling for Power, to be used going forward, so we don’t have to read one of these overly sensitive posts crying about our uninformed incorrect comparisons?

Of which we weren’t.

You sir are a provocateur. When you see a bear walking down the street do you go up to it and poke it? 🤡

[Curt]

Some of you guys are getting weird.  Stay calm and try to be reasonable.

[pi2000]

Pump the brakes, enough of the personal attacks. 

It's OK to have different opinions. 

I, for one, enjoy the fact we all see them a shade differently. 

Power won't be Hedman or Jones or Myers, he'll be the first Owen Power.    

[inkman]

7 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

idk why the Hedman comparison keeps coming up. 

It’s the height 

[LGR4GM]

Gentlemen you can't fight in here! This is the war room. 

[inkman]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

Smaller players present better value as you move through the draft because most NHL teams value height over underage production. I have no problem with tall guys if they produce at higher levels. It just so happens that Rossi, Jarvis, Robertson were shorter guys who would go in our ranges and be good. 

This is the first I’m hearing of this.  

[GASabresIUFAN]

Are any of these guys really worthy of the No.1 overall pick in an NHL draft? Do we know?  Has COVID made this evaluation year next to impossible?

This draft reminds me of the D heavy 2012 draft.  There are a few skaters who will end up being good to very good NHL players, but no skater stands out as a franchise leading type player.  I'd argue that Forsberg (11th), Wilson (16), Teravainen (18) and Lindholm (6th) are the best skaters from the 2012 draft. Of course we took Grigorenko (12th) and Girgensons (14th), missing out on the top players in the draft.  How much better would we be with Hertl or Teravainen along with Vasilevsky (19).

Also like 2012 2 goalies are among the top rated prospects.  Vasilevskiy, who is the only franchise leading player from that draft, and Malcolm Subban.  This year it's Wallstadt and Cossa.

In this draft Eklund seems like the only forward with at least Forsberg type upside.

Edited July 13, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[Pimlach]

11 hours ago, Hoss said:

Also: you quoted Pimlach twice who specifically has NOT compared him to Hedman but is noting that if others who have mentioned Hedman are correct then he wants Power. SwampD isn't making a comparison. Pi and I are the only ones who were actually making the "comparison" among your quoted posts and both of us mentioned that it's unlikely.

Again, there is nothing wrong with the Hedman comparison or praising Power. There is nothing wrong with preferring him. I've never seen anyone here say anything about him that you couldn't google and find four or five experts saying the same thing because it comes from the research we've all done on our own. Nobody thinks Power is the second coming of anything.

I like your favorites, as well. Beniers and Eklund very well could be better players. There's no reason for this animosity or torpedoing every post in favor of Power in unnecessary and disingenuous ways.

True.  I don’t study it like some of you do, so I enjoy reading about it.    I have asked if he is comparable to Hedman.  I like Hedman and I want a defenseman like him.  Big, strong, mobile, smart, tough, and steady is more than enough … Hedman’s offensive skills (which took 5 or 6 years to bloom) is a big plus.  If Power can someday be close to this then I would love to have him.  I am willing to wait on him too. 

If there are forwards that project with more impact then I’m fine with it.  I am not going to complain about the pick.  Well, at least not for about 3 years.  LOL 😂 

I am happy KA has Karmanos and Ventura to help him.  

[Thorny]

15 hours ago, Curt said:

I guess that’s kind of what we are talking about  here.  Every prospect needs to get better at almost everything.  It’s the more glaring things that we generally highlight.

I like the MLB grading system. 

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/robert-witt-jr/sa3011225/stats?position=SS

Say prospect Bobby Witt Jr. The players receive scores from 20-80 based on several different areas of aptitude, and if you look at his for example, you'll see for "hit"ing ability, he has a projection of 45, but the stat is listed as 30/45. So it has the level they are sitting at "now" and what they are expected to get to. My point in bringing this up is if you look at list of top prospects, pretty much all outside of Wander Franco have a ton of improvement to do, and that's expected, mostly across the board of attributes. It's a different sport obviously, but it does a good job illustrating your point in pure numbers: prospects in general almost all have multiple areas for improvement. 

Edited July 13, 2021 by Thorny

[Thorny]

14 hours ago, Taro T said:

What's kind of funny/strange about that list is that of 8 or 9 criticisms 3 are directly related to 1 (gap control) and a 5th (skating transitions) plays a fairly significant role in gap control.

And don't really have a dog in this scrap.  Been too busy to finally start digging in a bit into the prospects & have been leaning towards Beniers but from following the discussions would be happy w/ Eklund and OK w/ Power as well.

No you are like me you want to trade the pick for a now player, and keep our best guys. Admit it!

[Thorny]

14 hours ago, Hoss said:

Power, Eklund and Beniers are the picks that wouldn’t give me pause. I am confused by the idea that we somehow don’t need Power, though. We currently have zero high-end defenders. You need two/three to compete in the playoffs. We currently have maybe two or three forwards and that number may go down but if you’re going to count on prospects on d then you have to count on the forward prospects we already have, too.

If we are looking at pipeline we are by far the weakest at C 

Agree we could use the concept of Power, regardless of my feelings of drafting a D and him specifically at 1

[Curt]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I like the MLB grading system. 

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/robert-witt-jr/sa3011225/stats?position=SS

Say prospect Bobby Witt Jr. The players receive scores from 20-80 based on several different areas of aptitude, and if you look at his for example, you'll see for "hit"ing ability, he has a projection of 45, but the stat is listed as 30/45. So it has the level they are sitting at "now" and what they are expected to get to. My point in bringing this up is if you look at list of top prospects, pretty much all outside of Wander Franco have a ton of improvement to do, and that's expected, mostly across the board of attributes. It's a different sport obviously, but it does a good job illustrating your point in pure numbers: prospects in general almost all have multiple areas for improvement. 

Yes, I like the baseball 20-80 grading system as well.  It’s much more objective and specific than most hockey scouting reports.

Elite prospects has a number grading system that they apply to prospects.  I believe Pronman was trying to use a 20-80 type system a couple years ago.  I don’t know if he abandoned it.

[Thorny]

Just now, Curt said:

Yes, I like the baseball 20-80 grading system as well.  It’s much more objective and specific than most hockey scouting reports.

Elite prospects has a number grading system that they apply to prospects.  I believe Pronman was trying to use a 20-80 type system a couple years ago.  I don’t know if he abandoned it.

It would be cool to see something like that catch on mainstream 

I guess it's just harder to accurately measure things in hockey relative to baseball 

[Curt]

Just now, Thorny said:

It would be cool to see something like that catch on mainstream 

Yeah, then we could argue about whether Owen Power’s skating should be graded as a 50 or a 60.  Can’t wait!

[Thorny]

11 hours ago, Hoss said:

You're trying to have two different conversations and passing them off as the same thing. Nobody has ever said Power is Hedman. That's just a popular ceiling for him. Nobody on this board is saying he is a lock or even likely to become that. I've never seen anyone mention Lidstrom a single time when discussing Power but maybe I missed it.

Now, all of a sudden, it has changed to you hunting down people simply making a comparison. There is absolutely nothing wrong with anyone making the Hedman comparison. It's a fair CEILING projection (meaning incredibly unlikely) just like your Patrice Bergeron comparison for Beniers. Why is it fair to compare your favorite to a Hall of Famer but others cannot?

The only projection I've raised my eyebrows at so far in this thread was @pi2000's, and not his ceiling projection which is fine. But Ekblad as a floor is lofty and, in my opinion, an unreasonable base minimum expectation for the kid. 

 

He stacks up metrically against the best defensemen in the league. Power could certainly get there, but if that's his floor, as you like to say - he'd be a guaranteed no question one. And as we've seen it's a little more divided than that. 

[Flashsabre]

What is Eklund’s injury history because he seemed to be on the shelf/missing a ton of tournaments this year (WJCs, WCs, Summer Showcase)

[Curt]

Just now, Flashsabre said:

What is Eklund’s injury history because he seemed to be on the shelf/missing a ton of tournaments this year (WJCs, WCs, Summer Showcase)

I think he missed some time with an injury, but he also missed time with Covid.

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, Curt said:

I think he missed some time with an injury, but he also missed time with Covid.

Covid was why he missed WJC20 and he had an appendectomy. 

[Curt]

27 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Covid was why he missed WJC20 and he had an appendectomy. 

Appendectomy, that’s what it was!  I forgot.  So he didn’t miss time with an actual playing injury.  Thanks.  @Flashsabre

[rakish]

There's a nice youtube that the New Jersey Devils put out looking at each shift of Anton Olsson, it's kind of a nice pairing with my video if you want to deep dive.

Have you heard my Adam Boqvist conspiracy theory? I try to sort out the Anton Olsson comparables