Flashsabre Posted June 17, 2021 Report Share Posted June 17, 2021 1 hour ago, Curt said: Scouch is not high on Power. He has Power at 6-7 on his draft board. That’s good. I’m surprised it says 4 weeks since he was on the ice skating the next day. Again, he says he sees things he has to work on. Because he ranks others higher doesn’t mean he hates the player. And who cares what these people think. Pronman, Scouch and these others are not the be all end all of prospects. They have their certain things they like and looks for which skewer their rankings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted June 17, 2021 Report Share Posted June 17, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Flashsabre said: Again, he says he sees things he has to work on. Because he ranks others higher doesn’t mean he hates the player. And who cares what these people think. Pronman, Scouch and these others are not the be all end all of prospects. They have their certain things they like and looks for which skewer their rankings. Huh... is that how that works because I pretty much get "you hate Power!" because I like Beniers more. Same thing with Ryan Johnson. Why wouldn't we care what the ppl who research and write about the draft think? Edited June 17, 2021 by LGR4GM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flashsabre Posted June 17, 2021 Report Share Posted June 17, 2021 4 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: Huh... is that how that works because I pretty much get "you hate Power!" because I like Beniers more. Same thing with Ryan Johnson. Why wouldn't we care what the ppl who research and write about the draft think? The same guy who doesn’t like Pronman because he doesn’t rate Beniers higher? I don’t think anyone said you hate Power, I think you take this stuff too personally sometimes. The problem with these that write about the draft is that many people don’t follow the prospects and take these peoples words as gospel. It is one person’s amateur evaluation yet people think it is the be all end all. Scouch has had a lot of poor ratings on players based on how they have progressed since, Pronman puts his emphasis on size and skill over all else. Yes they work hard at it and yes they are pretty good at it but it is not the gospel, they both skew in certain directions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted June 17, 2021 Report Share Posted June 17, 2021 2 minutes ago, Flashsabre said: The same guy who doesn’t like Pronman because he doesn’t rate Beniers higher? I don’t think anyone said you hate Power, I think you take this stuff too personally sometimes. The problem with these that write about the draft is that many people don’t follow the prospects and take these peoples words as gospel. It is one person’s amateur evaluation yet people think it is the be all end all. Scouch has had a lot of poor ratings on players based on how they have progressed since, Pronman puts his emphasis on size and skill over all else. Yes they work hard at it and yes they are pretty good at it but it is not the gospel, they both skew in certain directions. Pretty sure you once told me if my opinion on prospects was worth anything I would be paid for it so. I don't like Pronman but I read him because it isn't about where he ranks guys but how he words his reports. It is all about critical reading and cataloging that to see if it jives with what others say. If Pronman says "Eklund is small and isn't fast enough" but "Scouch says that Eklund is strong on his skates and is able to power through checks and separate" then I we have a conflicting view and it requires further analysis. If they both say "Owen Power skates really well and generates good power through his strides" then you have concurring reports. It is all about reading as much as possible to understand the player as well as possible. If ppl take one guy as gospel over another, that's just poor critical thinking. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt Posted June 17, 2021 Report Share Posted June 17, 2021 1 hour ago, Flashsabre said: Again, he says he sees things he has to work on. Because he ranks others higher doesn’t mean he hates the player. And who cares what these people think. Pronman, Scouch and these others are not the be all end all of prospects. They have their certain things they like and looks for which skewer their rankings. Who said he hates the player? You said he was high on Power. My question would be, compared to who? If Scouch is high on Power, then everyone in the world is high on Power, because Scouch rats Power lower than pretty much everyone. Who cares what they think? I don’t know, you are the one who was talking about what Scouch says. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flashsabre Posted June 17, 2021 Report Share Posted June 17, 2021 58 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: Pretty sure you once told me if my opinion on prospects was worth anything I would be paid for it so. I don't like Pronman but I read him because it isn't about where he ranks guys but how he words his reports. It is all about critical reading and cataloging that to see if it jives with what others say. If Pronman says "Eklund is small and isn't fast enough" but "Scouch says that Eklund is strong on his skates and is able to power through checks and separate" then I we have a conflicting view and it requires further analysis. If they both say "Owen Power skates really well and generates good power through his strides" then you have concurring reports. It is all about reading as much as possible to understand the player as well as possible. If ppl take one guy as gospel over another, that's just poor critical thinking. I can guarantee you I never said that to you, I don’t know who you are thinking of but it wasn’t me. I don’t attack posters for opinions. I know what you are saying. My point was there are a lot of people that don’t follow the draft that will say “Pronman has Joe Smith ranked here so that is where he must be drafted” or “Scouch has this guy ranked above this guy so that must be where they go.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted June 17, 2021 Report Share Posted June 17, 2021 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted June 17, 2021 Report Share Posted June 17, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Curt said: Scouch is not high on Power. He has Power at 6-7 on his draft board. That’s good. I’m surprised it says 4 weeks since he was on the ice skating the next day. It occurred to me at the time it was purely PR. Probably true actually considering he had literally zero chance of playing, knowing what we know now 5 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: Makes perfect sense. How could Kevyn Aydams be scared off by the class when they haven't had the scouting capacity to even delve into it, really? The hubris is honestly quite staggering. Edited June 17, 2021 by Thorny 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted June 17, 2021 Report Share Posted June 17, 2021 1 hour ago, Thorny said: It occurred to me at the time it was purely PR. Probably true actually considering he had literally zero chance of playing, knowing what we know now Makes perfect sense. How could Kevyn Aydams be scared off by the class when they haven't had the scouting capacity to even delve into it, really? The hubris is honestly quite staggering. 4 of our main suitors are in the top 9. Even in this draft, 3 picks in the top 9 is a helluvalot better than 3 picks scattered throughout the first round (Columbus). If this board were running the draft, I would be very confident that we would come away with 3 very good players. With GMKA, I can't think of why it would be that much different. Beniers, Guenther, and Eklund anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted June 17, 2021 Report Share Posted June 17, 2021 1 hour ago, LGR4GM said: Good. It’s stupid to be scared by a process that happens every year and often proves to be the best way to find top talent. There will be stars in the draft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted June 17, 2021 Report Share Posted June 17, 2021 1 minute ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said: 4 of our main suitors are in the top 9. Even in this draft, 3 picks in the top 9 is a helluvalot better than 3 picks scattered throughout the first round (Columbus). If this board were running the draft, I would be very confident that we would come away with 3 very good players. With GMKA, I can't think of why it would be that much different. Beniers, Guenther, and Eklund anyone? Statistically unlikely. Nevermind for us. It's not that they aren't good assets, the picks, it's that as a return for what we are trading, they are sub-optimal. The perceived strength of the draft is definitely a contributing factor. Just like winning 1st overall isn't as good this year as most others (just look at the reaction), trading our cornerstone talents for picks in an adjudged to be weaker draft is not a stroke of luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted June 17, 2021 Report Share Posted June 17, 2021 52 minutes ago, Thorny said: Statistically unlikely. Nevermind for us. It's not that they aren't good assets, the picks, it's that as a return for what we are trading, they are sub-optimal. The perceived strength of the draft is definitely a contributing factor. Just like winning 1st overall isn't as good this year as most others (just look at the reaction), trading our cornerstone talents for picks in an adjudged to be weaker draft is not a stroke of luck. Yeah, I guess I was being over-exuberant. I need something to grab onto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flashsabre Posted June 17, 2021 Report Share Posted June 17, 2021 https://www.tsn.ca/jets-bolster-blueline-oilers-add-skill-up-front-in-button-s-second-mock-draft-1.1656063 Craig Button’s latest mock draft today. Interesting to look at it while thinking Sabres might get 1 or 2 more top picks based on Eichel/Reinhart returns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted June 17, 2021 Report Share Posted June 17, 2021 (edited) Edited June 17, 2021 by LGR4GM 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted June 17, 2021 Report Share Posted June 17, 2021 2 hours ago, LGR4GM said: Without seeing the list of first picks and the probability slapped on them as teenagers this tweet is a giant pile of poop. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 1 hour ago, Hoss said: Without seeing the list of first picks and the probability slapped on them as teenagers this tweet is a giant pile of poop. Lol. It's not so just lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zamboni Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 Just asking here … honestly … What does Bader (or anyone for that matter) consider a “star”? Isn’t that a fluid interpretive term? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 8 minutes ago, Zamboni said: Just asking here … honestly … What does Bader (or anyone for that matter) consider a “star”? Isn’t that a fluid interpretive term? He has some mathematical definition that stems from his model. There are charts involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 1 hour ago, Curt said: He has some mathematical definition that stems from his model. There are charts involved. Correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 Look Bader isn't the be all end all but when his model is that off on a guy it should give you a little pause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 14 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: Look Bader isn't the be all end all but when his model is that off on a guy it should give you a little pause. You may want to rephrase that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 21 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: Look Bader isn't the be all end all but when his model is that off on a guy it should give you a little pause. When Baders model says a guy has a 7% star chance, you should at least pause and consider it. 8 minutes ago, SDS said: You may want to rephrase that. I tried but wasn't sure if you were reading innuendo into the op or not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 3 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: When Baders model says a guy has a 7% star chance, you should at least pause and consider it. I tried but wasn't sure if you were reading innuendo into the op or not Maybe I don’t know what you mean. Are you saying the model is wrong or are you saying the player isn’t as good because the model doubts their star power? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewookie1 Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 5 hours ago, LGR4GM said: Then who has the highest according to him would be my question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 3 minutes ago, SDS said: Maybe I don’t know what you mean. Are you saying the model is wrong or are you saying the player isn’t as good because the model doubts their star power? Ah, sorry. I'm saying that if his model has Power so low, even if you think his model isn't great, that should really make you think. I'm trying to say that it's unlikely his model is so bad that Power is some outlier at 7% who should actually be way higher. The margin of error of the model isn't going to be that far off. 4 minutes ago, thewookie1 said: Then who has the highest according to him would be my question? https://hockeyprospecting.com/ His model though had Rossi at 1 last year which is interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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