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2C and 3C for 20-21


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On 7/15/2020 at 4:03 PM, sweetlou said:

There are several boards that talk about the idea but I wanted to start one specifically to get responses on what players fans would want to see in these two roles next year.

In your response of player wanted for position, what would Buffalo have to give up to obtain said player?

 

2C options-

Sean Monahan, Max Domi, Tomas Hertl, Ryan Nugent-Hopkins, Kyle Turris, Brock Nelson, Anthony Cirelli, Eric Stall, Adam Henrique, Ryan Johansen

3C options-

Nick Bonino, Adam Gaudette, Derrick Brassard, Andrew Copp, Derek Ryan, Chris Tierney, Radek Faska

without including current contract situations of the proposed these are pointless discussions.  Turris and johansen have contracts that are skinner like.

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On 7/18/2020 at 6:12 AM, Curt said:

Perhaps I should have been more clear.


I did not say that the stay at home defenseman was dead.  I said that players in the league today generally need to have a higher baseline competence as skaters than they did 15 years ago.  That’s why I question Samuelson and, by extension, McKee.

Not devalued the role, no.  I never said that.  But even stay at home D need to be better skaters than they were 15 years ago.  That’s the only thing I’m saying.

I don't think he was saying he will not have more ability than Jay McKee. 

I think he was saying he'd be the modern NHL's version of McKee. McKee, adjusted for inflation, if you will. Don't be too literalist ?

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4 hours ago, erickompositör72 said:

I don't think he was saying he will not have more ability than Jay McKee. 

I think he was saying he'd be the modern NHL's version of McKee. McKee, adjusted for inflation, if you will. Don't be too literalist ?

Thank you for saying it better than I did ?

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2 hours ago, LabattBlue said:

You don’t really believe that Pilut is an upgrade over McCabe?

I believe that Pilut didn't get a real opportunity.  I currently sit here seeing McCabe being a meat and potatoes defensemen who is basically a slightly better Weber (former Sabre).  He's not really great at anything.  I'm looking for change to make things better as quick as possible.  There is nothing that we haven't seen in McCabe to think he'll get any better than this.  I'm ready to move on. 

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1 hour ago, TheCerebral1 said:

I believe that Pilut didn't get a real opportunity.  I currently sit here seeing McCabe being a meat and potatoes defensemen who is basically a slightly better Weber (former Sabre).  He's not really great at anything.  I'm looking for change to make things better as quick as possible.  There is nothing that we haven't seen in McCabe to think he'll get any better than this.  I'm ready to move on. 

While I don't really think McCabe is anything better than a 5/6 D on a decent team he is/was better than Pilut and has a little (just a little) grit compared to some of our roster so he's still valuable. I never liked Pilut's game and actually couldn't care less he's gone. He coughed up the puck under pressure in numerous situations and cost us goals against. 4 in one disastrous game thinking back. If your D was filled with big tough slower D men you might want him around as a speedy difference maker on offense but when you already have guys with offensive games he's a liability. JBot and Housley seemed to think all 6 D men should be offensive puck movers. Krueger seemed to shift back to more balance. Hope that continues.

3 puck movers, 3 solid stay at home big bodies with grit, that should be your starting 6. So for the moment Dahlin, Jokiharju, Montour paired with Risto, McCabe and maybe Borgen (fingers crossed). Work the natural right left thing out over time. Something like that anyway. No place for Pilut imo so no loss. 

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9 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

While I don't really think McCabe is anything better than a 5/6 D on a decent team he is/was better than Pilut and has a little (just a little) grit compared to some of our roster so he's still valuable. I never liked Pilut's game and actually couldn't care less he's gone. He coughed up the puck under pressure in numerous situations and cost us goals against. 4 in one disastrous game thinking back. If your D was filled with big tough slower D men you might want him around as a speedy difference maker on offense but when you already have guys with offensive games he's a liability. JBot and Housley seemed to think all 6 D men should be offensive puck movers. Krueger seemed to shift back to more balance. Hope that continues.

3 puck movers, 3 solid stay at home big bodies with grit, that should be your starting 6. So for the moment Dahlin, Jokiharju, Montour paired with Risto, McCabe and maybe Borgen (fingers crossed). Work the natural right left thing out over time. Something like that anyway. No place for Pilut imo so no loss. 

We've had him for going on 6-7 seasons, he isn't going to improve, he's replaceable and I think we can find his replacement at a million less.  He's not anything special.  This team needs to jettison certain players and try different things.  Starting with players like McCabe and Ristolainen who have some value.  It isn't working. 

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2 hours ago, TheCerebral1 said:

We've had him for going on 6-7 seasons, he isn't going to improve, he's replaceable and I think we can find his replacement at a million less.  He's not anything special.  This team needs to jettison certain players and try different things.  Starting with players like McCabe and Ristolainen who have some value.  It isn't working. 

While I'm fine with the idea, I don't think we should get rid of McCabe. He is one of 2 NHL LHD on the roster. We already need to add 1 (unless Montour plays on his off hand again), I'd prefer to not create a hole there, when McCabe can be a solid 5D.

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1 minute ago, sabresparaavida said:

While I'm fine with the idea, I don't think we should get rid of McCabe. He is one of 2 NHL LHD on the roster. We already need to add 1 (unless Montour plays on his off hand again), I'd prefer to not create a hole there, when McCabe can be a solid 5D.

When does 9 years of missing the playoffs, with the same players not become an issue. Change needs to happen....and while I don't even dislike McCabe that much, if you get a serviceable return, move on.

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28 minutes ago, TheCerebral1 said:

When does 9 years of missing the playoffs, with the same players not become an issue. Change needs to happen....and while I don't even dislike McCabe that much, if you get a serviceable return, move on.

I don’t think he is a problem.  It doesn’t make sense to actively try to get rid of players, just because they have been here for a while.  Could say the same about Eichel or Reinhart.  They’ve been here for some time and the team has accomplished nothing.  If they get a serviceable return for those two, should the Sabres move on from them?

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1 hour ago, Curt said:

I don’t think he is a problem.  It doesn’t make sense to actively try to get rid of players, just because they have been here for a while.  Could say the same about Eichel or Reinhart.  They’ve been here for some time and the team has accomplished nothing.  If they get a serviceable return for those two, should the Sabres move on from them?

 

Eichel and Reinhart are the main focal point of the offense with Olofsson just behind.  That's contradictory to my point.  At best McCabe is a 12-15 point defensemen.  You can replace that easily.  Trade him for picks, and get someone in that might bring something more.

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57 minutes ago, TheCerebral1 said:

 

Eichel and Reinhart are the main focal point of the offense with Olofsson just behind.  That's contradictory to my point.  At best McCabe is a 12-15 point defensemen.  You can replace that easily.  Trade him for picks, and get someone in that might bring something more.

Ok, then you want to move McCabe because he isn’t very good, not because he has been on the team while it was a bottom dweller.

Unrelated Note:  McCabe routinely produces points at a rate above your “at best” assessment, about 20 pts per full season.

Edited by Curt
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McCabe isn't close to being this team's problem & if he is moved to improve the C situation, they have another hole to fill.  (Albeit one that should be easier to fill than C.)

As he's a borderline 4/5, having him on the 3rd pairing works just fine.

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19 hours ago, TheCerebral1 said:

When does 9 years of missing the playoffs, with the same players not become an issue. Change needs to happen....and while I don't even dislike McCabe that much, if you get a serviceable return, move on.

I never understood the logic that because a team has struggled it was imperative to get rid of players for the sake of change. If a player isn't a reason for the team's struggles then why feel compelled to jettison the player for the sake of a change. Maybe the better approach would be is to add more talent so the player/s will be in a better situation to win. 

There will be changes made to this roster. Few people, if any, believe that it would be smart to continue with the status quo. The right approach is not to shed players for the sake of change but to get the right mix of players that will better balance your imbalanced roster.  

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On 7/22/2020 at 8:20 AM, TheCerebral1 said:

We've had him for going on 6-7 seasons, he isn't going to improve, he's replaceable and I think we can find his replacement at a million less.  He's not anything special.  This team needs to jettison certain players and try different things.  Starting with players like McCabe and Ristolainen who have some value.  It isn't working. 

I got muted for making fun of Chuck Norris so it's taken me a while to get to this. The problem I have with ideas like this is IF they have value, then why would we want to jettison them? And if they don't actually have value for anyone else (in other words we can't get any real value for them) why would we just get rid of them? Not going to be so easy to just find cheap replacements for anyone. There is no long line of players wanting to come play in Buffalo that's for sure. 

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  • 1 month later...

So, I’ve created an updated list of potential center trade targets along with their remaining contract info. I’ve separated them into three groups:

Legit 2C- proven play at a 2C level, does not need to be sheltered at either end of the ice.

Middle 6 C- isn’t good enough at one end of the ice, or has lacked consistency

Bottom 6 C- definitely not someone who you want as your 2C, but is good in a lesser role
 

Legit 2C:

Eric Staal, 35, $3.3M x 1

Logan Couture, 31, $8.0M x 7

Adam Henrique, 30, $5.8M x 4

Phillip Danault, 27, $3.1M x 1

Sean Monaghan, 25, $6.4M x 3

Elias Lindholm, 25, $4.9M x 4

Anthony Cirelli, 23, RFA

 

Middle-6 C

Nick Bonino, 32, $4.1M x 1

Kyle Turris, 31, $6.0M x 4

Tyler Johnson, 30, $5.0M x 4

Yanni Gourde, 28, $5.2M x 5

Chris Tierney, 26, RFA

Max Domi, 25, RFA

Alex Kerfoot, 25, $3.5M x 3

Jared McCann, 24, RFA

Dylan Strome, 23, RFA

 

Bottom-6 C

Artem Anisimov, 32, $4.5M x 1

Derek Stepan, 30, $6.5M x 1

Nick Bjugstad, 28, $4.1M x 1

Adam Lowry, 27, $2.9M x 1

Andrew Copp, 26, $2.3M x 1

Radek Faska, 26, RFA

Alex Wennberg, 25, $4.9M x 3

Tyson Jost, 23, RFA

Adam Gaudette, 23, RFA

 

Please discuss your favorite targets.  Who would be right for Buffalo?

Edited by Curt
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25 minutes ago, Curt said:

So, I’ve created an updated list of potential center trade targets along with their remaining contract info. I’ve separated them into three groups:

Legit 2C- proven play at a 2C level, does not need to be sheltered at either end of the ice.

Middle 6 C- isn’t good enough at one end of the ice, or has lacked consistency

Bottom 6 C- definitely not someone who you want as your 2C, but is good in a lesser role
 

Legit 2C:

Eric Staal, 35, $3.3M x 1

Logan Couture, 31, $8.0M x 7

Adam Henrique, 30, $5.8M x 4

Phillip Danault, 27, $3.1M x 1

Sean Monaghan, 25, $6.4M x 3

Elias Lindholm, 25, $4.9M x 4

Anthony Cirelli, 23, RFA

 

Middle-6 C

Nick Bonino, 32, $4.1M x 1

Kyle Turris, 31, $6.0M x 4

Tyler Johnson, 30, $5.0M x 4

Yanni Gourde, 28, $5.2M x 5

Chris Tierney, 26, RFA

Max Domi, 25, RFA

Alex Kerfoot, 25, $3.5M x 3

Jared McCann, 24, RFA

Dylan Strome, 23, RFA

 

Bottom-6 C

Artem Anisimov, 32, $4.5M x 1

Derek Stepan, 30, $6.5M x 1

Nick Bjugstad, 28, $4.1M x 1

Adam Lowry, 27, $2.9M x 1

Andrew Copp, 26, $2.3M x 1

Radek Faska, 26, RFA

Alex Wennberg, 25, $4.9M x 3

Tyson Jost, 23, RFA

Adam Gaudette, 23, RFA

 

Please discuss your favorite targets.  Who would be right for Buffalo?

Granlund at 28yrs old is an UFA and you don't need to trade for him. I would put him in the legit 2C category.

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In general I'd be reluctant to pay anyone over 30 big money unless it's very short term, and generally those guys want term. 

I think Lowry would be a good guy to include in any multi player (involving Risto if that's still a thing) Winnipeg deal as he's a pretty decent player with good grit and attitude and a Skinner-Lowry-Johanson line might actually not be too bad until Cozens is ready or another C can be obtained. 

obviously Cirelli.

I like Bonino but he's getting up there in years. Good 3rd liner. Gourde in a heartbeat but for him and really anyone else it depends on the price tag. 

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Cirelli would be my #1 preference but I'm not sure he will be attainable. Another player who I think will be a good pickup and might be available with a reasonable deal is Danault. What others have said about him that would make him appealable to Krueger is that he is a good two way player.  When one reviews the list posted @Curt what sticks out is that there are plenty of good primary and secondary options to consider.  

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43 minutes ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

Granlund at 28yrs old is an UFA and you don't need to trade for him. I would put him in the legit 2C category.

I was focusing on trade possibilities, but yes, Granlund would be someone to look at.  The main thing to consider with him though, is whether he is actually a center.  He started his NHL career as a C, but has played very little C over the past four seasons.

With that in mind, no way I could consider him a legit 2C.  Center hasn’t even been his main position.

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52 minutes ago, Curt said:

I was focusing on trade possibilities, but yes, Granlund would be someone to look at.  The main thing to consider with him though, is whether he is actually a center.  He started his NHL career as a C, but has played very little C over the past four seasons.

With that in mind, no way I could consider him a legit 2C.  Center hasn’t even been his main position.

The articles I've read talk of him as a perfect 2C and not much about him playing the wing. I wasn't aware of what you claim.

They even show stats that put him ahead of the likes of Bergeron, ROR, and Couturier.

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13 minutes ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

The articles I've read talk of him as a perfect 2C and not much about him playing the wing. I wasn't aware of what you claim.

They even show stats that put him ahead of the likes of Bergeron, ROR, and Couturier.

Zemgus Girgensons (2016-7) was a regular centre more recently than Mikael Granlund (2015-6).

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41 minutes ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

The articles I've read talk of him as a perfect 2C and not much about him playing the wing. I wasn't aware of what you claim.

They even show stats that put him ahead of the likes of Bergeron, ROR, and Couturier.

I think any type of ranking that overall rates Granlund above Bergeron, ROR, or Couturier should be looked at with extreme skepticism.  🤨

It is true though that he has played mostly LW since the 2015-16 season.

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Elias Lindhollm, might not need our 8OA to get him seeing they play him at wing in Calgary.   And we can switch him back to wing when Cozens is ready.

Using our 8OA cirelli would be my target or Monahan.

Kerfoot for our Middle six ,  but basically 3C 

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