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Kim explains how she and Terry pick coaches

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1 hour ago, Tondas said:

Terry and Kim picking GM's and coaches:

 

image.png

I was looking for a blind folded person throwing darts or playing pin the tail, but this works.

As to Skinner he should have been on Jack’s wing at ES all season.  I have also thought of Skinner as someone who needs a gifted passer to succeed. Unfortunately for him RK kept our two best passers, Jack and Sam on a line with VO. VO is a wonderful PP weapon but isn’t a top line ES player.  You wonder if this was part of the communication issues between Jbot and RK.  

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I do not believe Skinner needs a gifted passer to succeed. 
This is not the same thing as saying he wouldn’t score more playing with Jack Eichel.

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Skinner is uncoachable and only plays when he wants to play and only plays the way he wants to and acts like a spoiled child when things don't go his way. Disastrous signing that in time will be argued about over worst ever along with Hodgson, Leno, Erhoff etc.   

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6 hours ago, dudacek said:

I do not believe Skinner needs a gifted passer to succeed. 
This is not the same thing as saying he wouldn’t score more playing with Jack Eichel.

Agreed.  If anything, VO is the LW that needs a gifted passer.

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There are facts, and there is spin to try to get others to make a leap to agree with your version of “facts”.

Do others who read the article and  see the commentary, see the difference as plain as day as I do?

Edited by Zamboni

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15 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

This doesn't sound like a normal sign-off. This sounds like the GM signs off on the owners' decision.

Flat organizational structure?

Like I said, it sounds familiar. The Pegulas are highly involved.

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5 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Skinner is uncoachable and only plays when he wants to play and only plays the way he wants to and acts like a spoiled child when things don't go his way. Disastrous signing that in time will be argued about over worst ever along with Hodgson, Leno, Erhoff etc.   

Huh? I'm no fan of the contract, but the guy reliably goes 100 mph. 

That's not to say he's some defensive dervish - he mostly sucks at that part of the game. But for what he can do? He just about always goes hard.

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45 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

Huh? I'm no fan of the contract, but the guy reliably goes 100 mph. 

That's not to say he's some defensive dervish - he mostly sucks at that part of the game. But for what he can do? He just about always goes hard.

Skinner was generating shots just getting buried with no line help and no shot luck. It was why when Larsson was with him for a hot minute it was so promising because they looked really good together. Kahun should help him. 

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1 hour ago, Zamboni said:

There are facts, and there is spin to try to get others to make a leap to agree with your version of “facts”.

Do others who read the article and  see the commentary, see the difference as plain as day as I do?

What do you take from the article? Do you draw any conclusions about how the process of hiring coaches works?

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16 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

Tim Murray's slur is starting to make a lot more sense. At first I wondered why he'd be that upset at the paint choice in the trainer's room.

Terrible stuff.

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Just now, That Aud Smell said:

Terrible stuff.

So character assassination and misogyny don't lend credence to otherwise unsupported theories that are ceaselessly presented as fact?

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3 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

Terrible stuff.

I didn't say I liked the word. Just that it never made any sense that Tim would resort to using it. If you're bothered by the paint remark, go talk to Terry. He's the one who assigned Kim to redecorate the place, back when the Sabres owner was Terry Pegula.

2 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

So character assassination and misogyny don't lend credence to otherwise unsupported theories that are ceaselessly presented as fact?

You've had a bad week on here.

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25 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

I didn't say I liked the word. Just that it never made any sense that Tim would resort to using it. If you're bothered by the paint remark, go talk to Terry. He's the one who assigned Kim to redecorate the place, back when the Sabres owner was Terry Pegula.

Well, that's a little less terrible than initially stated. A little.

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28 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

So character assassination and misogyny don't lend credence to otherwise unsupported theories that are ceaselessly presented as fact?

They certainly don't help anything. OTOH, I mostly agree with PA's assessment of the Pegulas at this point in time.

I could definitely do without the understandable-C-words-and-yoko-ono stuff, though.

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7 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

They certainly don't help anything. OTOH, I mostly agree with PA's assessment of the Pegulas at this point in time.

I could definitely do without the understandable-C-words-and-yoko-ono stuff, though.

I didn't make the Yoko joke. I defended Bob Sauve's honor when it was assumed he was making a racist joke and not a Beatles joke.

You're use of the word understandable is wrong. I'm not saying it's understandable Murray used that slur; that would suggest sympathy for him. I was trying to understand why he used it. Just my opinion of course, but I believe he used it because Kim was meddling in his hockey domain and not sticking to the business side as we all understood to be the lay of the land in the organization.

I think this is one problem people have with liberal/progressive thinking and tactics. If you want to discuss why the c-word got used, be prepared to get called a misogynist.

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We're covering familiar ground. Which I guess I find interesting, to a point. And then I don't.

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22 hours ago, dudacek said:

I agree with the last sentence. I also think it would be in their best interest if the second biggest contract on the team would do a better job of what they are asking him to do.

The analytics stuff is very interesting to me.

Most people seem to notice and remember those times Skinner makes a gutty backcheck, steals the puck and flips the ice. They don’t seem to notice how on most rushes towards our goal he’s not in the frame because he’s been caught deep, or is coasting along yapping at the ref or the other team’s bench. And they don’t seem to notice how infrequently he is in position to support the d in Our zone in coverage or transition.

So when “the underlyings” look good, I really need one of those @Randall Flagg lessons to show me what those underlyings signify and what he’s doing to earn them.

Because the stat that best supports my eye test is -2 when he’s scoring and -22 when he’s not.

I was going to do a project on Skinner this summer, but finding employment and then covid throwing a wrench in sports has removed my desire and time to do so. 

But the reason I was going to do that was because I rewatched a bunch of games during the first half of the 18-19 season and focused heavily on Jeff. Jeff doesn't hound the puck and he doesn't drive play in the offensive zone, even though his career fancy stats would suggest it - they are so good in Carolina because he played on a strong possession team and got a lot of chances. But what he does do is pick his spots off-puck in a way that few goal scorers do. His netfront timing and availability is the key to his game, and it's why so many gorgeous plays happened, particularly in key moments, in his first Sabre season. Picture the tying goal against MTL for the 8th win in the streak, the tying goal home vs Carolina in March, burying the Eichel plays in Boston, and so many more. 

The thing that I noticed when coming back to struggling Skinner after watching him there was that the dude was in the exact same place with his stick down on the ice every chance he could, but that those plays were never past the conception stage - they materialized only in the wildest hopes of his linemates before they and he lost possession. He spent almost all of his bad stretch with one and sometimes two of the lowest-event offensive skaters in the entire NHL. Skinner was doing the things he always did (and he made those annoying plays last year too) but instead of Eichel and him feasting, it was Johansson playing the wrong position and struggling, Sheary being nonexistent in terms of play creation on the puck unless he's shooting it, Rodrigues having a bad year compared to his usual utility role, pushing him outside of overall usefulness as an NHLer, and Sobotka, who obviously has offensive zone issues (though Skinner was scoring when that line was doing well early). Those were his top four teammates in terms of ice time, and as a result, rather than Skinner's unique-to-this-team sense of timing and placement in danger areas (really, not a single skater on this team has it at a desirable level besides him and sometimes Sam, even Jack is goofy unless the puck is on his stick and he's moving around) resulting in the successful completion of competent offensive zone plays and passes, he was stuck in those spots after abrupt high slot turnovers and only getting to show us the skate back to the defensive zone, behind everyone else, for the 1,506th consecutive time, growing a tick more frustrated each time. In the film, you can overlay the tape and watch him play exactly the same each year right up until it's time for something to happen, and then the results weren't there, because the thing that got him paid, the thing he's good at, was never triggered this year, and he doesn't have the puck skills and smarts to change styles and become a play driver. There's no coincidence that when he and Wayne and whoever it was that played with them were put together, things started to turn around - the line had a different kind of vibe, and even though it wasn't through puck skill necessarily, Jeff started finding himself with the puck where he is most natural and comfortable with it again. He was invisible because he doesn't have the skill to both physically get to that spot with the puck and finish it (few do). Now, he's paid lik ehe should, and shouldn't escape criticism for his production, but Jeff Skinner's season was far more to do with both coaching and roster construction errors than Jeff's efforts. 

I hope that Ralph understands this, because it seems that Ralph understood how crippled we were with our roster depth and center spine. Ifwe get a 2C and/or let Jeff play by Jack, I am supremely confident based on what I saw both this year and last that the grumbling about his contract and play will shrink and he will score a loooot of important goals for this franchise

 

Edited by Randall Flagg

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13 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

The thing that I noticed when coming back to struggling Skinner after watching him there was that the dude was in the exact same place with his stick down on the ice every chance he could, but that those plays were never past the conception stage - they materialized only in the wildest hopes of his linemates before they and he lost possession. He spent almost all of his bad stretch with one and sometimes two of the lowest-event offensive skaters in the entire NHL. Skinner was doing the things he always did (and he made those annoying plays last year too) but instead of Eichel and him feasting, it was Johansson playing the wrong position and struggling, Sheary being nonexistent in terms of play creation on the puck unless he's shooting it, Rodrigues having a bad year compared to his usual utility role, pushing him outside of overall usefulness as an NHLer, and Sobotka, who obviously has offensive zone issues (though Skinner was scoring when that line was doing well early). Those were his top four teammates in terms of ice time, and as a result, rather than Skinner's unique-to-this-team sense of timing and placement in danger areas (really, not a single skater on this team has it at a desirable level besides him and sometimes Sam, even Jack is goofy unless the puck is on his stick and he's moving around) resulting in the successful completion of competent offensive zone plays and passes, he was stuck in those spots after abrupt high slot turnovers and only getting to show us the skate back to the defensive zone, behind everyone else, for the 1,506th consecutive time, growing a tick more frustrated each time. In the film, you can overlay the tape and watch him play exactly the same each year right up until it's time for something to happen, and then the results weren't there, because the thing that got him paid, the thing he's good at, was never triggered this year, and he doesn't have the puck skills and smarts to change styles and become a play driver. There's no coincidence that when he and Wayne and whoever it was that played with them were put together, things started to turn around - the line had a different kind of vibe, and even though it wasn't through puck skill necessarily, Jeff started finding himself with the puck where he is most natural and comfortable with it again. He was invisible because he doesn't have the skill to both physically get to that spot with the puck and finish it (few do). Now, he's paid lik ehe should, and shouldn't escape criticism for his production, but Jeff Skinner's season was far more to do with both coaching and roster construction errors than Jeff's efforts. 

I hope that Ralph understands this, because it seems that Ralph understood how crippled we were with our roster depth and center spine. Ifwe get a 2C and/or let Jeff play by Jack, I am supremely confident based on what I saw both this year and last that the grumbling about his contract and play will shrink and he will score a loooot of important goals for this franchise

Awesome.  This jibes with my impressions as well.

He's got a great nose for scoring opportunities, he's strong on the puck, he's a very good skater and he plays with an edge, but he still needs to be with Eichel or other very good NHL center -- which, along with the petulance, are regrettable when you're paying him that much -- but he will score 40ish goals with the right linemates.  And that's more or less worth the contract he got.

KA and RK need to make it happen.

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One thing getting lost in the Skinner vs Olofsson discussion is that by playing with guys that can be defensively responsible, Eichel had the luxury of getting anywhere in the offensive zone rather than staying high knowing he'd have to cover for Pominville who couldn't get back once he got low & Skinner who could get back but would likely stay near the net longer than circumstances dictate that he should've.

Absolutely would've let Skinner play with Eichel after he came back when Olofsson was out, but really didn't have as much consternation keeping Skinner on the 2nd line as others here because Jack was having a truly career breakout year.  And my gut says the team's scoring is optimized by optimizing Eichel's production.

My 2 cents.  

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Good post @Taro T although I’m not sure Team scoring was optimized last year.  But it was great seeing Eichel have a monster year and VO score a ton Of exciting goals as a rookie. 

Either way I sure want to see how team scoring goes with 2-3 new and improved forwards in the top 9.  

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I also wouldn't be surprised if Ralph was in Jeff's ear all season, trying to keep him going and his spirits up (with limited success) knowing that our goose was cooked with this roster even if jeff and jack were together, so that we could get Olofsson valuable experience on that line and be better for it when the roster finally was better.

I dont mean to excuse games where Jeff's effort was bad and where he took bad frustration penalties,  which happened. But he is what he is and good coaching can make that work for the team going forward 

10 minutes ago, Taro T said:

One thing getting lost in the Skinner vs Olofsson discussion is that by playing with guys that can be defensively responsible, Eichel had the luxury of getting anywhere in the offensive zone rather than staying high knowing he'd have to cover for Pominville who couldn't get back once he got low & Skinner who could get back but would likely stay near the net longer than circumstances dictate that he should've.

Absolutely would've let Skinner play with Eichel after he came back when Olofsson was out, but really didn't have as much consternation keeping Skinner on the 2nd line as others here because Jack was having a truly career breakout year.  And my gut says the team's scoring is optimized by optimizing Eichel's production.

My 2 cents.  

I think there were times where Olofsson really made the line struggle 5v5. But long term it was likely worth it

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11 hours ago, That Aud Smell said:

Huh? I'm no fan of the contract, but the guy reliably goes 100 mph. 

That's not to say he's some defensive dervish - he mostly sucks at that part of the game. But for what he can do? He just about always goes hard.

Not disagreeing that he "goes hard" but when one guy doesn't follow the system or go the way the other guys go it isn't going to work. We have for years floundered with juggled lines that fail to work as groups but rather play as individuals. Kreuger tried to instill more of a team system with well defined roles, but if a guy doesn't buy into that it doesn't matter how hard he goes, it won't work. Skinner hasn't shown me he can be a team player or do what he's asked to do so I guess as a coach you drop him down the lineup as Kreuger did or you give up and let him be himself, but if you do that, does it destroy your ability to coach the rest of the roster? Not sure if that works either.

My acts like a spoiled child comment was more in relation to the selfish retaliation penalties he has a tendency to take all too frequently. That is a very costly in big games (if we ever get to play any). 

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On 6/25/2020 at 10:11 AM, PASabreFan said:

It's starting to feel like piling on, but if she wants to keep offering seasonal, organic word salads topped with corporate buzz words...

https://buffalonews.com/2020/06/24/buffalo-bills-buffalo-sabres-kim-pegula-sean-mcdermott-jason-botterill-nfl-football-nhl-hockey/

So... "Pegula People." A lot to unpack in this article, even in just that one quote. I'll start with why don't the Pegulas let their GMs hire their own coaches? GMs might be interested in the nuances of pesky little things like coaching strategies and X's and O's.

This is actually quite a development, even if Brawndo had the Pegulas pegged to the Housley hire a while back. It's confirmation, anyway. The Trial thread is redeemed, once again.

Well it's worked out so well for them so far....

Wonder when the league follows suit and copy their winning ways?

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On 6/25/2020 at 9:20 AM, tom webster said:

All of these continued shots would indicate there is a right way to make these hires when, in fact, history has proven it’s just a shot in the dark.

There is still no proven way to hire coaches and general managers. Experienced guys fail, non-experienced guys, communicators, teachers, cutting edge, analytical, old school, it really doesn’t matter. 
 

I understand the skepticism and the hand wringing but the biggest difference between the Pegulas and other owners is an acceptance of paying off contracts and keep trying. They could have left someone in charge longer, eventually made the playoffs and never contend. 

Her record speaks for itself, and not in a good way.  The last thing she should do is give advice,  or try to come off like she has some special process.   

Their willingness to spend money has actually hurt them, the bad deals cost big money for a long time.  

I don’t get the logic by some here - A GM has a team that makes the playoffs and “never contends”, yet that is worse than what we have seen for  10 years now?   Making the playoffs is the first step in contention.  
 

 

Edited by Pimlach

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On 6/26/2020 at 9:09 AM, LGR4GM said:

Skinner was generating shots just getting buried with no line help and no shot luck. It was why when Larsson was with him for a hot minute it was so promising because they looked really good together. Kahun should help him. 

I posted a stat from an article on another thread that Kahun was top 30 in the NHL over the last two seasons in primary assists.  That may help explain VO’s looking good with him in their very short time together.

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