COVID-19

[SwampD]

His post did  have some bs in it too, though. C'mon.

I have another question for you, Woody.

What do you think would happen if not a single person got the flu shot? Without a quarantine, would we see a repeat of 1919 with mass graves?

Just trying to figure out how this is different, other than it's mostly sick and older people dying instead of 18 to 35 year olds.

[PASabreFan]

1 hour ago, darksabre said:

I still can't believe there are states where you don't even have to wear a helmet on a motorcycle. Like, talk about needlessly putting yourself at risk.

But as far as I can figure, only the motorcyclist is at risk. His or her right to be ripe-catalouped doesn't infringe on my right to live.

[MISabresFan]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

You are out of decisively step with with the medical community. 

Not really, there are professional medical personnel that A) have not received a vaccination B) do not want to be part of the current human testing program 

[PASabreFan]

2 minutes ago, MISabresFan said:

Not really, there are professional medical personnel that A) have not received a vaccination B) do not want to be part of the current human testing program 

Of course there are. You're not making much of a point. There are cardiologists who eat bacon.

[MISabresFan]

2 hours ago, pi2000 said:

When they came out with the seatbelt law, a large number of folks protested "you can't force me to wear a seatbelt, because.. RIGHTS"... or "look this guy died BECAUSE he had his seatbelt on....".     Even tho the data showed they saved lives.    Those types of people will always exist, and decades later there are still folks who don't wear seatbelts.    You can't cure stupid.

Stupid is what stupid does and maybe they are not stupid.  How about helmet laws for motorcycle riders?  It is optional.  Did you ride a bike as a kid and wear a helmet, gloves to protect your sensitive hands (lol) washed with palmolive soap, tie your pant legs with strings so they would not get caught in the chain?  Look the shot creates a greater chance of survival from the virus, like an insurance policy.  How it protects others and long term effects are not known, the jury is still out.  

 

[MISabresFan]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

So what you are telling me is the vaccines work as Vermont has a very low number of Covid cases compared to say Florida... 21,000 is their 7 day average. Glad to know the vaccines are doing their jobs. 

Perfect example of numbers and science twisted to relay different perceptions and so called truths.  Exactly why I posted those numbers to see how many would interpret it differently.  .

 

10 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Of course there are. You're not making much of a point. There are cardiologists who eat bacon.

Not according to this internet article they don't   "Cardiologists Refuse To Eat These Foods"  Cardiologists Refuse To Eat These Foods (theactivetimes.com)

[MISabresFan]

18 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

But as far as I can figure, only the motorcyclist is at risk. His or her right to be ripe-catalouped doesn't infringe on my right to live.

And not wearing a seatbelt or wearing a seatbelt puts the other vehicle at risk?  

[MISabresFan]

39 minutes ago, SwampD said:

His post did  have some bs in it too, though. C'mon.

I have another question for you, Woody.

What do you think would happen if not a single person got the flu shot? Without a quarantine, would we see a repeat of 1919 with mass graves?

Just trying to figure out how this is different, other than it's mostly sick and older people dying instead of 18 to 35 year olds.

 

2 hours ago, Doohickie said:

Just because there are new cases does not mean that the vaccine is not effective.  People who are vaccinated represent less than 1% of Covid deaths despite being (approximately) the same portion of the population as the unvaccinated population.  With the Delta variant, it is able to infect a vaxed individual but very rarely gains enough of a toe hold to cause major illness.  The mechanism of the vaccine is primarily in the bloodstream, but the Delta variant is particularly successful in the sinuses and mucus membranes of the upper respiratory system.  So people test positive and have respiratory symptoms but the disease does not progress beyond that because the vaccine works to prevent widespread internal infection.

Dammit, We need to stop picking our noses and sucking face near and with infected people!  I wonder if there is a mask for that... Seriously, yes it does slow down the symptoms and help, however the long term side effects are unknown along with short term ones.  It doesn't create immunity.  This is how it was sold.  However the stats dont back that and now we have doubt and lack of faith.

 

[Wyldnwoody44]

50 minutes ago, SwampD said:

His post did  have some bs in it too, though. C'mon.

I have another question for you, Woody.

What do you think would happen if not a single person got the flu shot? Without a quarantine, would we see a repeat of 1919 with mass graves?

Just trying to figure out how this is different, other than it's mostly sick and older people dying instead of 18 to 35 year olds.

There was a study put out by New England journal of medicine about 8 years or so ago, comparing 1st world vs 3rd world countries and looking at illness/viruses, etc....one of the main thing in that article was that those in the less wealthy country had a much better immune system and response to many illnesses because of chewing their nails/cuticles. Something that is frowned upon in developed nations; while seen as unsanitary and publicly gross, very lifesaving in other situations.

I think we have removed a lot of what we need from society in regards to fighting off general viruses and the like, but we wouldn't reach those levels at this point. Well basic hygiene is important, its something acquired through a lifetime of immune learning. 

As for the flu, we have Tamiflu and antibiotics to prevent secondary pneumonia now, so I think it would be very similar to this situation now, influenza didn't kill people, it was the dehydration /infection/sepsis that was the ultimate killer. I don't have a ton of insight into 1919 so I won't pretend to know, but that's like comparing Gretzky to McDavid, different eras and not super applicable.

[SwampD]

5 minutes ago, Wyldnwoody44 said:

There was a study put out by New England journal of medicine about 8 years or so ago, comparing 1st world vs 3rd world countries and looking at illness/viruses, etc....one of the main thing in that article was that those in the less wealthy country had a much better immune system and response to many illnesses because of chewing their nails/cuticles. Something that is frowned upon in developed nations; while seen as unsanitary and publicly gross, very lifesaving in other situations.

I think we have removed a lot of what we need from society in regards to fighting off general viruses and the like, but we wouldn't reach those levels at this point. Well basic hygiene is important, its something acquired through a lifetime of immune learning. 

As for the flu, we have Tamiflu and antibiotics to prevent secondary pneumonia now, so I think it would be very similar to this situation now, influenza didn't kill people, it was the dehydration /infection/sepsis that was the ultimate killer. I don't have a ton of insight into 1919 so I won't pretend to know, but that's like comparing Gretzky to McDavid, different eras and not super applicable.

Since we have removed these things that help protect us, I just don't understand why replacing them with something like vaccines to help protect us is viewed as somehow being brainwashed.

Just letting Covid run it's course and letting the people die who were going to die in order to strengthen the species is ridiculous in this day and age. We have the ability of not having to sacrifice those weaker souls.

Vaccines work, and they do give immunity to a majority (virtually all) of the people who get them. No matter what MISF says.

[Wyldnwoody44]

7 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Since we have removed these things that help protect us, I just don't understand why replacing them with something like vaccines to help protect us is viewed as somehow being brainwashed.

Just letting Covid run it's course and letting the people die who were going to die in order to strengthen the species is ridiculous in this day and age. We have the ability of not having to sacrifice those weaker souls.

Vaccines work, and they do give immunity to a majority (virtually all) of the people who get them. No matter what MISF says.

I'm not debating that so much, I am a fan of vaccines, I wish I could bring boatloads of them to my clinic in Africa with me. 

But, the part that is unnerving is that we are pushing them without a 2nd though to the long term side effects of what it could be. I feel that people should be allowed to question those without being beat down by the general population. Sure, in the end it may be miniscule, but in 5 years it's possible to have an immune response to the vaccine/preservative/etc. These things can happen, we simply just don't have the answer now. 

I got poked, great, my best friend who works in this field also, he doesn't want to. I'm not going to be an ass to him over it, he has valid concerns and I won't dismiss them.

[LGR4GM]

2 hours ago, MISabresFan said:

Perfect example of numbers and science twisted to relay different perceptions and so called truths.  Exactly why I posted those numbers to see how many would interpret it differently. 

Is that why you used "percent jump"?

You use Cole Beasley as an avatar, so Cole... is that you? 

[LGR4GM]

3 hours ago, Wyldnwoody44 said:

It's been this way since day 1, one of the reasons I took a year off, and have been petty good about avoiding this thread in general.

One new person comes in and he tells his life story, and general thoughts; within 15 minutes, he's being ridiculed and made fun of because he disagrees. 

The status quo is what is spoon fed by the media: some in here are better than others about delving in a bit, but most are very very reactionary about the tidbits they hear. 

I have first hand experience with this virus both in the lab and in practice, there are many truths out there but a lot of stuff being misrepresented. I made an informed decision and got the vaccine, but think there are many many unknowns about long term efficacy and risk. 

Literally in the last 3 weeks, I have had 2 DIC patients with splenic issues and thrombus with the only explination being the J+J vaccine.

Small sample size, but 2 in my own small world means that is happening much larger in scale overall. Risk vs benefit. 

All I'm saying is give some of the people that don't fully buy in a break. 

 

 

Full stop with this sentence because it is 100% incorrect. You, if you are a doctor, should be well aware of the fact you can not extrapolate out a small sample to the general population. For all you know you have sampling bias. Could you be right? Yes but to state this as though it were truth is a major reason the public at large doesn't trust the medical field. Small samples extrapolated out without proper assessment of all variables. 

Edited August 12, 2021 by LGR4GM

[LGR4GM]

2 hours ago, MISabresFan said:

Not really, there are professional medical personnel that A) have not received a vaccination B) do not want to be part of the current human testing program 

That is a broad group of ppl with varying degrees of knowledge about vaccinations. Dr. Bill the knee replacement specialist isn't really a medical expert on mRNA vaccine technology or the outcomes thereof. 

 

[Wyldnwoody44]

18 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Full stop with this sentence because it is 100% incorrect. You, if you are a doctor, should be well aware of the fact you can not extrapolate out a small sample to the general population. For all you know you have sampling bias. Could you be right? Yes but to state this as though it were truth is a major reason the public at large doesn't trust the medical field. Small samples extrapolated out without proper assessment of all variables. 

Sampling bias is what comes through the doors of the hospital, no bias at all. Actual real life randomized trials. And no, being a doctor does not make me a statistician; honestly I can't even get through the stats on this board when it comes to hockey, let alone anything else. 

You think I saw the only 2 patients on the planet with J+J induced DIC? I'm not trying to sway anyone with this, its just actual things that have happened; I will not even look at any "real" data until at least 12-24 months after these all roll out, then again I work on the macro level generally in my job. 

17 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

That is a broad group of ppl with varying degrees of knowledge about vaccinations. Dr. Bill the knee replacement specialist isn't really a medical expert on mRNA vaccine technology or the outcomes thereof. 

 

No, not exactly, but I'd trust Dr. Ortho to look at data online and be able to trudge through what's more likely to be true, that individual did go through medical school at some point and has basic pathophysiology knowledge that isn't quite as easy to grasp to someone that hasn't. 

 

Not to say that I trust all medical personnel but most do get a slight benefit for having completed medical training prior to their subspecialty. 

[LGR4GM]

16 minutes ago, Wyldnwoody44 said:

Sampling bias is what comes through the doors of the hospital, no bias at all. Actual real life randomized trials. And no, being a doctor does not make me a statistician; honestly I can't even get through the stats on this board when it comes to hockey, let alone anything else. 

You think I saw the only 2 patients on the planet with J+J induced DIC? I'm not trying to sway anyone with this, its just actual things that have happened; I will not even look at any "real" data until at least 12-24 months after these all roll out, then again I work on the macro level generally in my job. 

No, not exactly, but I'd trust Dr. Ortho to look at data online and be able to trudge through what's more likely to be true, that individual did go through medical school at some point and has basic pathophysiology knowledge that isn't quite as easy to grasp to someone that hasn't. 

 

Not to say that I trust all medical personnel but most do get a slight benefit for having completed medical training prior to their subspecialty. 

The point is you extrapolating out j+j vaccine side effects the general population is extremely flawed. Your sample of 2 is at a minimum hundreds and more likely thousands to low to do that. That's the issue and you are still pushing it.

Go look up Andrew J Wakefield and his 9 patients with autism. I'm sure you're well aware of that study. The point is simple your sample size would need to expand to truly postulate correlation. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, just that we should be cautious. 

[JohnC]

4 hours ago, MISabresFan said:

Not really, there are professional medical personnel that A) have not received a vaccination B) do not want to be part of the current human testing program 

The AMA took a survey that indicated 96% of the doctors are fully vaccinated. 

https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-survey-shows-over-96-doctors-fully-vaccinated-against-covid-19

 

[Andrew Amerk]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

The AMA took a survey that indicated 96% of the doctors are fully vaccinated. 

https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-survey-shows-over-96-doctors-fully-vaccinated-against-covid-19

 

I don’t trust awards shows. 

[John Tucker]

[Doohickie]

1 hour ago, John Tucker said:

You obviously don't understand how communicable diseases are passed.

[North Buffalo]

9 hours ago, Wyldnwoody44 said:

It's been this way since day 1, one of the reasons I took a year off, and have been petty good about avoiding this thread in general.

One new person comes in and he tells his life story, and general thoughts; within 15 minutes, he's being ridiculed and made fun of because he disagrees. 

The status quo is what is spoon fed by the media: some in here are better than others about delving in a bit, but most are very very reactionary about the tidbits they hear. 

I have first hand experience with this virus both in the lab and in practice, there are many truths out there but a lot of stuff being misrepresented. I made an informed decision and got the vaccine, but think there are many many unknowns about long term efficacy and risk. 

Literally in the last 3 weeks, I have had 2 DIC patients with splenic issues and thrombus with the only explination being the J+J vaccine.

Small sample size, but 2 in my own small world means that is happening much larger in scale overall. Risk vs benefit. 

All I'm saying is give some of the people that don't fully buy in a break. 

 

 

I too have heard of problems regarding clots with J&J, not sure how serious it is or wide spread, but it is an issue.    J&J has had other issues as a company recently and I am not sure they are trustworthy.  I haven't heard of many people getting J&J around me so I am not sure I have any first hand knowledge, but England shut it down for a while as well as other countries.  It appears to occur in only certain people, but haven't seen any more information recently on the issue.

[SwampD]

My wife and I both got the J+J. Neither of us had any side effects. Both COVID free. From my data, the J+J vaccine is 100% effective with zero side effects. Small sample size, I know, but it must be happening on a much larger scale.

[Wyldnwoody44]

5 hours ago, SwampD said:

My wife and I both got the J+J. Neither of us had any side effects. Both COVID free. From my data, the J+J vaccine is 100% effective with zero side effects. Small sample size, I know, but it must be happening on a much larger scale.

Is this the part where Liger comes raging in about Stats? 

[nucci]

I think we're all concerned about long term effects. However you also have to look at short term effects and for me getting the shots was the best move as I'm older . Unvaccinated people are getting seriously ill and dying. That has to be taken in to consideration while watching people saying they wish they got the shots right before they die

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, Wyldnwoody44 said:

Is this the part where Liger comes raging in about Stats? 

Not raging, just noting a data flaw. Swamp is being sarcastic but also making the point. We have to be careful, especially with a disease that impacts basically everyone.