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LGR4GM

This Sabres losing culture nonsense needs to go, it's BS

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8 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

It is complete and total garbage perpetuated by everyone around here. The team is bad because of their "culture". No the team is ***** bad because they keep bringing in mediocre players who can't create offense. If it was "culture" than how come we see the same talented players succeed here each year? Where is there culture of sucking. How come ROR is still just as good in St Louis? Because this entire ***** that some magical culture revolution is going to change this team has become a crutch to explain away why this team is just garbage. They are garbage because Sheary, Vesey, Sobotka, Erod, WIlson, Frolik, and even Mojo were brought in and they are not good enough at creating offense. I just listed 5 forwards that do almost nothing to create offense and a couple more who sometimes do. That's why we ***** lose. It isn't because we lost for a year or two and now it is acceptable or whatever fairytale you want to believe. We suck because our GM has added offensive passengers to the team for years with no end in sight. The result is a talent devoid team that misses wide open nets and is last in the league in creating good scoring chances. We suck because we are bad and every ***** time one of you uses the trash excuse for culture, you are creating a culture but not of losing being acceptable but allowing excuses to be acceptable and allowing accountability to be hoisted off on some mythical fairytale. The team sucks because they are not talented, they don't suck because it is okay to lose. 

end rant. 

You're always asking me (and others) to prove this, prove that, show me evidence, and dismissing others comments as subjective or opinion so now I'm going to flip the table on you. Prove that we do not have a losing culture and back up this rant which is really just a lot of wishful thinking on your part.

The facts and the history say otherwise. Sheary was pretty good in Pittsburgh. He came here and sucked. Okposo was quite good in Long Island. He came here and sucked. Sobotka and Vesey were both better before they came here. ROR was better after he got out. Lehner was much better after he got out. How many examples do you need? Tyler Meyers was driven out of town and he got pretty good after leaving. One can go on and on and on. There are very few counter examples. Only Jokiharju comes to mind.  

The bar is low, it's been set low, the players don't care, the team is a shambles. The losing culture runs very very deep. Change GMs, change coaches, change players nothing works. JBot admitted publicly he had to change that culture after he got here. He saw it. You saying he made that up as an excuse? not the kind of thing GMs or coaches like to admit to. The party line is usually one of false optimism. trouble is, he's failed at fixing that culture.

All you have to do is watch the details of a winning culture and list off the very very long list of differences. Examine the way the Bruins operate on every level for example. We're supposed to be celebrating 50 years, and the Bruins did a better job just celebrating one guy (Chara) the other week. The players there all want to be there. They all love it there. They all stand for and support each other all the time. . It's a TEAM. Heck the players all chipped in and bought Chara and his family an all expenses paid trip to anywhere he wanted to go cause they are the Bruins, they are united, they care.  That's the model to follow if you want to build a winning culture. I'm going to bet a day doesn't go by that Jack doesn't wish he could be there instead of here. 

But go ahead, prove we have a winning culture here, just make sure you spell the names right if you list off any players. 

 

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35 minutes ago, Neo said:

^ I greatly admire The Bruins.

Yeah, bugs me how did one of the few remaining wealthy Buffalo family's(Jacobs) with a local headquartered national Company(Delaware North) not end up with a Buffalo team. 

Only other I still know of is the Rich's. 

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The losing culture is a RESULT of poor management and poor talent.    It can perpetuate on itself and it can become a reason to lose even when you could or should win.  

Same with winning cultures - they can become a reason you win when you could or should lose.  That is why good culture is being stressed by so many successful coaches and is also practiced in business. 

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I’m looking back, again, over 58 years and the extraordinary set of circumstances that have put me in the presence of power and great men.

Steinbrenner, Jacobs and culture.  Be excellent.  Be urgent.  There is no other way.  I never heard “I’ll sell another hot dog” or “I’ll build another ship”.

I did hear “from this day forward the sole purpose of ...”.

We will win when the culture here requires people to give all they've got and not rely on all the owner has.

Small, and not so insightful, observation.  TPegs has the graciously human desire to give.  He sheds tears.  I feel him.  I am looking for that single minded purposefulness that will enable him, that will require him, to demand.  I know nothing of his business culture.

I see the Bills demanding everything of and from themselves.  They are engaged and joyful “opt in” guys.  I’m a believer.

JBot has to find talent.  TPegs must demand it.  I am encouraged by the process.

One more season.  Draft, develop, attract, and manage cap and contracts.  Greater hockey minds than mine have views on our GM and how capable he is of this.  Time will tell.

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Question in this regard, if the Sabres win say 16 more games out of the last 25 games, it puts them at 88 points, not in the playoffs, but with the scoring challenge of this team and shiite at time, young goaltenders, I call this a successful though disappointing season.  I'd say Ralphy did a great job with the hand he was dealt.  Obviously, Cozens will help next year and another forward free agent and high draft pick.  In fact, I'd say anything above 80 points is pretty remarkable and yet with where the Sabres are at, it is doable.  They are basically playing 500 hockey right now or just below and I wonder though people were hoping for better the slow rebuild is starting to take shape.  You add Olloffson back, Cozens next year and hope for a trade or signing that brings a high end forward and maybe they strike gold.  Hard swallow another, here is hoping for the next off season... but the goalie talent looks like it is coming.  Again, they just need serviceable 2C while Cozen develops and maybe Mitts can regain his confidence on wing.  Lots of ifs and butts, soup and nuts...

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15 minutes ago, North Buffalo said:

Question in this regard, if the Sabres win say 16 more games out of the last 25 games, it puts them at 88 points, not in the playoffs, but with the scoring challenge of this team and shiite at time, young goaltenders, I call this a successful though disappointing season.  I'd say Ralphy did a great job with the hand he was dealt.  Obviously, Cozens will help next year and another forward free agent and high draft pick.  In fact, I'd say anything above 80 points is pretty remarkable and yet with where the Sabres are at, it is doable.  They are basically playing 500 hockey right now or just below and I wonder though people were hoping for better the slow rebuild is starting to take shape.  You add Olloffson back, Cozens next year and hope for a trade or signing that brings a high end forward and maybe they strike gold.  Hard swallow another, here is hoping for the next off season... but the goalie talent looks like it is coming.  Again, they just need serviceable 2C while Cozen develops and maybe Mitts can regain his confidence on wing.  Lots of ifs and butts, soup and nuts...

If they can get to 85 points, then that would exceed my preseason expectations.  It would also likely mean that they fought through this season until the end.  That’s what I want to see.

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Nothing more than a sloooow rebuild... nothing to see here but an inpatient fan base losing its shiite

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15 hours ago, pi2000 said:

Their culture is one where something doesn't go their way and the hang their heads with a "here we go again" attitude.    As a result they give up goals in bunches.  This is the left over stink from the tank.

With a winning culture that doesn't happen, or happens very rarely.

They're trying to break out of it, just not quite there yet. 

im sure we all played on teams in our lives, where you knew your goalie just wasn't good enough vs the opponents. You play your hearts out and then he/she gives up a stinker and you can't help to be deflated.   The players aren't blind, they know they can't compete when Hutton is in net vs a quality opponent.

thats the "here we go again" attitude.  Fans feel it and so do the players. Has nothing to do with the Tank...how can it be? only 2 (?) players are left from the 14/15 team.

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Who cares what the reason is?  This organization from top to bottom does not deserve to have any rabid fans at this point.  Not only do they suck on the ice, they suck even worse off of it.  I boycotted the Bills for several years until they showed me they deserved my eyeballs.  I'm at the same point with the Sabres.  I'm not watching them until they're playing meaningful games in April.  They're just not worth it and there's so many more entertaining things to spend my time doing.

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5 hours ago, North Buffalo said:

Nothing more than a sloooow rebuild... nothing to see here but an inpatient fan base losing its shiite

Agreed. The Sabres most likely would have been out of the rebuild mode if it hadn't been for Murray trading away almost every single asset the Sabres gained at the start of the tank job. So, in essence, the tank produced Eichel, Reinhart and Dahlin and that's it. All the prospects and draft picks were given away like a drunken sailor's paycheck on payday weekend. I get JBots logic of trying to build through the draft, have the players develop in the minor leagues, then get called up when they are ready, but so far, it's not working for the Sabres and I'm not sure if he's the right GM for the job. Maybe he needed more experience as an Asst. GM before the Pegula's hired him as the Sabres GM?

Edited by Jerry Jabber

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20 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

You're always asking me (and others) to prove this, prove that, show me evidence, and dismissing others comments as subjective or opinion so now I'm going to flip the table on you. Prove that we do not have a losing culture and back up this rant which is really just a lot of wishful thinking on your part.

The facts and the history say otherwise. Sheary was pretty good in Pittsburgh. He came here and sucked. Okposo was quite good in Long Island. He came here and sucked. Sobotka and Vesey were both better before they came here. ROR was better after he got out. Lehner was much better after he got out. How many examples do you need? Tyler Meyers was driven out of town and he got pretty good after leaving. One can go on and on and on. There are very few counter examples. Only Jokiharju comes to mind.  

The bar is low, it's been set low, the players don't care, the team is a shambles. The losing culture runs very very deep. Change GMs, change coaches, change players nothing works. JBot admitted publicly he had to change that culture after he got here. He saw it. You saying he made that up as an excuse? not the kind of thing GMs or coaches like to admit to. The party line is usually one of false optimism. trouble is, he's failed at fixing that culture.

All you have to do is watch the details of a winning culture and list off the very very long list of differences. Examine the way the Bruins operate on every level for example. We're supposed to be celebrating 50 years, and the Bruins did a better job just celebrating one guy (Chara) the other week. The players there all want to be there. They all love it there. They all stand for and support each other all the time. . It's a TEAM. Heck the players all chipped in and bought Chara and his family an all expenses paid trip to anywhere he wanted to go cause they are the Bruins, they are united, they care.  That's the model to follow if you want to build a winning culture. I'm going to bet a day doesn't go by that Jack doesn't wish he could be there instead of here. 

But go ahead, prove we have a winning culture here, just make sure you spell the names right if you list off any players. 

 

You should've been a farmer, this is some of the best cherry picking i've seen.

Sherry was pretty good in Pitt but sucked here.....fact is that Sheeri had one (1) good year in Pitt playing with Cup Champs and his last season there he had 30pts/79gms. His 1st year in Buffoonville he had 34pts/78gms. So, if he sucked here then he also sucked in Pitt

OK..I mean KO had some good years playing with JT and had 64pts/79gms in his last year there. He came to Sabers and was on pace for 57pts over a full season playing with lesser talent.....hardly a cry for "he sucked". I don't think too many people would argue that "culture" was more of a reason for his decline rather than his history of injuries (unless Moleson brought that culture with him,LOL).

Sowbotka, well I might be inclined to give you that one unless someone can bring up the stats on his left FO%.😎

Veasy is similar to Sheeri....in NY-- 27, 28, & 35pts (also a bad +/- player)....in Buffulo he's on pace for about 28pts and is currently +13.

AH yes, the famous ROR....got better when he went to a perrenial contender with solid depth and better players around him (and got marginally better). When Blues were at the bottom of the standings ROR had 40pts/41gms (1st half of the season).....last half of season when they were on their run he had 37pts/41gms....hmmm, must be that Buffalo culture in the 2nd half of the season. He was also better on the Blues than he was in Eldorado so by fault the Av's have a culture problem.

Robyn Lenner was better in Buffalo (on ice) than in Ottawa...but not a guy you could count on in the clutch. Good for him, he got out and got his crap together and has had some good stats but the isles are just as good without him and Chicago is meh with him. He's also on his 2nd team since leaving already, so is he fixed?

Taylor Miers has cleaned up his awful game but has been put in a better position to do that. He wasn't expected to be a top pair D on a crap team. Not a big jump in quality if you ask me but just a more relaxed player.

JButt could've meant alot of things when he talked about "culture" change. Management, coaching style, type of players, system, and yes, even the locker-room. I'm not going to pretend I know which one or all of the above that it meant. That's not to say I argue that there is NO culture issue.

Damn spellchek, lol.

 

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15 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

So. I'm confused. Your counter argument is what? All those guys are the same as they were before and after so we keep losing because.................

I would say: Because they were not that good before we acquired them.

Sheary, Vesey, Sobotka, and anyone else except Skinner (and Okposo before his brain injuries) was not a top-6 forward before or after they were acquired.  They were and are all 3rd line quality players at best.

Edited by Curt

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11 hours ago, North Buffalo said:

Nothing more than a sloooow rebuild... nothing to see here but an inpatient fan base losing its shiite

Hmm...impatient? So, I've been a Sabres' fan since day one. That's 50 years, y'all. I watched an expansion team in 1970 make it to game six of the Cup Finals in 1975. We're now in year 9 of (what should have been) a 5 year rebuild. Patience? How much more should I have...or need? 

Fortunately, I have plenty of other (and more important) interests than NHL hockey. When the Sabres finally get around to working out all of their issues and become relevant again, let me know. 

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Culture IS a thing, IMO. I was an integral part of a company for almost a decade. When I came onboard, we were killing sales. We were constantly being given rewards - bonuses, team lunch parties, concert tickets, tablets, gift cards, etc. Everyone I worked with was generally happy to be there. 

Over time, management changes occurred. Those rewards went away, even despite our team still being successful. After a few years, almost everyone I worked with hated being there. Constant negativity. No changes in sight. Eventually, everyone slowly left jobs they used to love and had been at for a long time. 

So yes, culture is a thing. Even in sports, you can pick out teams that are loaded with talent and just don’t perform. My opinion is that for two years in a row, the Sabres performed better than expected based on the talent, and once they hit those rough patches, JBott sat on his hands. The team needed help both last year and this year to turn that corner, and got nothing. What message does that send to the players? We could have had a chance at playoffs both last season and this one with a few moves, but none were made. Fans saw this. You can’t think the players didn’t. Why should the players care, if upper management doesn’t? 

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1 hour ago, Curt said:

I would say: Because they were not that good before we acquired them.

Sheary, Vesey, Sobotka, and anyone else except Skinner (and Okposo before his brain injuries) was not a top-6 forward before or after they were acquired.  They were and are all 3rd line quality players at best.

Does not explain why we, as a franchise keep losing and being below expectations every year. If not due to a losing culture, explain it. This level of failure and ineptitude is difficult to maintain. 

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21 hours ago, Neo said:

I’m looking back, again, over 58 years and the extraordinary set of circumstances that have put me in the presence of power and great men.

Steinbrenner, Jacobs and culture.  Be excellent.  Be urgent.  There is no other way.  I never heard “I’ll sell another hot dog” or “I’ll build another ship”.

I did hear “from this day forward the sole purpose of ...”.

We will win when the culture here requires people to give all they've got and not rely on all the owner has.

Small, and not so insightful, observation.  TPegs has the graciously human desire to give.  He sheds tears.  I feel him.  I am looking for that single minded purposefulness that will enable him, that will require him, to demand.  I know nothing of his business culture.

I see the Bills demanding everything of and from themselves.  They are engaged and joyful “opt in” guys.  I’m a believer.

JBot has to find talent.  TPegs must demand it.  I am encouraged by the process.

One more season.  Draft, develop, attract, and manage cap and contracts.  Greater hockey minds than mine have views on our GM and how capable he is of this.  Time will tell.

Quite an excellent post.  Hey, I thought about drafting you in round 2 back in ‘72, but I went with Billy Hajt.  
 

Look at what McDermott and Beane are doing.  McDermotts coaching has been fantastic, He made the playoffs twice while in a tear down and rebuild.  That group plays hard and smart and believes they can win.  They are dogged on improving themselves, even after they get beat and exposed.  They are young in key places with a smart blending of the right veteran teaching them how to go to work. Beane made smart well calculated moves to get them into a great cap management position in the process.  Culture changed because these two guys practice what they preach.  

I think the point of this whole thread is to understand that culture is not inherited and static.   Culture is created.  Because of that it can be changed.   

 

 

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4 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Does not explain why we, as a franchise keep losing and being below expectations every year. If not due to a losing culture, explain it. This level of failure and ineptitude is difficult to maintain. 

I’m certainly not vouching for the culture of the Sabres.  I’ve seen things that support the idea that it is not the best.

What I’m saying is that there also has been insufficient talent.  They have not had the talent that you would consider normal for a playoff team.

As far as being below expectations, I guess it depends what you mean by that.  This season so far, they have performed about to my preseason expectations, considering the players on the roster.  The previous two seasons they did not meet my expectations because in 2018-19 it seemed like they kind of gave up towards the end and in 2017-18 they were inexplicably horrible.

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1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

Quite an excellent post.  Hey, I thought about drafting you in round 2 back in ‘72, but I went with Billy Hajt.  
 

Look at what McDermott and Beane are doing.  McDermotts coaching has been fantastic, He made the playoffs twice while in a tear down and rebuild.  That group plays hard and smart and believes they can win.  They are dogged on improving themselves, even after they get beat and exposed.  They are young in key places with a smart blending of the right veteran teaching them how to go to work. Beane made smart well calculated moves to get them into a great cap management position in the process.  Culture changed because these two guys practice what they preach.  

I think the point of this whole thread is to understand that culture is not inherited and static.   Culture is created.  Because of that it can be changed.   

 

 

You made the right call with Ol’ Billy!

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

Quite an excellent post.  Hey, I thought about drafting you in round 2 back in ‘72, but I went with Billy Hajt.  
 

Look at what McDermott and Beane are doing.  McDermotts coaching has been fantastic, He made the playoffs twice while in a tear down and rebuild.  That group plays hard and smart and believes they can win.  They are dogged on improving themselves, even after they get beat and exposed.  They are young in key places with a smart blending of the right veteran teaching them how to go to work. Beane made smart well calculated moves to get them into a great cap management position in the process.  Culture changed because these two guys practice what they preach.  

I think the point of this whole thread is to understand that culture is not inherited and static.   Culture is created.  Because of that it can be changed.   

 

 

The big mystery to me is the different approaches to building a roster, drafting and managing a cap.  Beane’s done it better.

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12 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Does not explain why we, as a franchise keep losing and being below expectations every year. If not due to a losing culture, explain it. This level of failure and ineptitude is difficult to maintain. 

It may have added up to a decade of failure, but it actually is four distinct periods lumped together that don't have a lot in common with each other except for the losing: the dying days of Darcy, the tank, the failed Murray rebuild, and the (failing?) Botterill reset

  • In 2012 and 13 it was Darcy flailing around trying and failing to replace the depth that made the late 2000's Sabres so good. Those teams had no centremen and basically met expectations as mediocre bubble teams that just missed the playoffs.
  • In 2014 and 15, Darcy and Murray stripped the roster of virtually every legitimate NHL player and lost on purpose. They met expectations as some of the worst teams ever assembled.
  • In 2016 and 2/3s of 2017, The team added a handful of key players and took a quantum leap forward from awful to almost competitive before imploding down the stretch of '17 amidst suggestions of culture problems.
  • 2018 Instead building off of what Murray had assembled, Botterill chose to rebuild the organization off ice and see what he had on it. The team fell through the floor again.
  • 2019 Botterill hit the reset button hard dumping Kane O'Reilly and Lehner along with Murray's heavy hockey vision and the team improved by 14 points.
  • 2020 The team looks poised to finish in the 80-90 point range most predicted.

I'd say based on the roster at the start of the season, the team finished below expectations in 2017 which led to Murray's firing and in 2018, which might have been based on the false impression that Botterill was going to work with the good parts of what Murray left for him.

The organization is where it is because of a series of mistakes by different people. Darcy frittered away his assets and failed to replace them, the tank dug a huge talent deficit that essentially made us an expansion team, Tim Murray overspent his asset base and failed to consider the human element of an organization, and Jason Botterill went for a full reset and has so far failed to accumulate enough talent to pull it off.

Edited by dudacek
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3 hours ago, Curt said:

I’m certainly not vouching for the culture of the Sabres.  I’ve seen things that support the idea that it is not the best.

What I’m saying is that there also has been insufficient talent.  They have not had the talent that you would consider normal for a playoff team.

As far as being below expectations, I guess it depends what you mean by that.  This season so far, they have performed about to my preseason expectations, considering the players on the roster.  The previous two seasons they did not meet my expectations because in 2018-19 it seemed like they kind of gave up towards the end and in 2017-18 they were inexplicably horrible.

I think we've reached some common ground here and we basically agree. 

What I meant about not meeting expectations was in regards to a longer timeline though. Not just about last year to this year but over the whole decade of futility. For example, Pierre McGuire in the broadcast was saying he liked where we were at and we were "closer than people think." and last year I remember him saying we were going to be a playoff team this year. and the year before he said we were very close. Our prospect cupboard was supposed to be full years ago. Then it was empty suddenly. If you just go from bottom/tank forwards, we're supposed to be a lot better by now.

Anyway, can't disagree with the overall sentiment. We share two key points. The culture is not as good as it should be or needs to be and the talent is insufficient. The question then becomes why is this still the case? Lots and lots and lots of bad decisions.

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