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2019-2020 Lineup

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6 hours ago, steveoath said:

In my mind Vesey isn't here beyond this season anyway. JB has him as cover on a contract year to, hopefully, get a good enough amount of points out of him. Next season will be when more of our young players can make the jump up. If Vesey performs well and we can get better than the 3rd round pick back at the deadline that's a decent bit of business imo.

The Vesey trade was the same principle as the Beaulieu trade (failure) the Sheary trade (so far a failure) and the Skinner trade (an overwhelming success, albeit an expensive one) - low risk, buy-low roll of the dice.

Invest in an asset that has come on the market at a depreciated value, see what happens - it’s become a Botterill trademark.

Edited by dudacek
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Current lineup, career highs:

Skinner 40

Eichel 28

Okposo 27

Reinhart 25

Johansson 24

Sheary 23

Vesey 17

Girgensons 15

Mittelstadt 12

Scandella 11

Sobotka 11

Larsson 10

Bogosian 10

Miller 10

Dahlin 9

Montour 9

Rodrigues 9

Ristolainen 8

Thompson 7

McCabe 4

 

That’s more goals than any team in the NHL other than Tampa scored last year.

It would be shocking to see those totals from Okposo, Girgensons, Sobotka, or the defence as a whole, and while they might approach those totals, you certainly can’t expect them from Skinner, Sheary and Johansson. Olofsson might add something.

Could we see the Sabres score 250 this year? That would make them solidly middle-of-the-pack offensively. They had 226, 8th from the bottom last year.

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55 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Current lineup, career highs:

Skinner 40   — 35 (19/20/)

Eichel 28 — 32

Okposo 27 — 10

Reinhart 25 — 26

Johansson 24 — 20

Sheary 23  — 15

Vesey 17 — 20

Girgensons 15 — 9

Mittelstadt 12 — 18

Scandella 11 — 3

Sobotka 11 — 3

Larsson 10 — 10

Bogosian 10 — 2

Miller 10  — 7

Dahlin 9 — 15

Montour 9 — 8

Rodrigues 9 — 12

Ristolainen 8 — 6

Thompson 7 — 13

McCabe 4 — 4

 

That’s more goals than any team in the NHL other than Tampa scored last year.

It would be shocking to see those totals from Okposo, Girgensons, Sobotka, or the defence as a whole, and while they might approach those totals, you certainly can’t expect them from Skinner, Sheary and Johansson. Olofsson might add something.

Could we see the Sabres score 250 this year? That would make them solidly middle-of-the-pack offensively. They had 226, 8th from the bottom last year.

If everyone stays healthy and the kids progress the upside of this lineup is 270 as is.  

Skinner, Eichel, Vesey = 87 goals

Johansson Mitts Reinhart = 64 goals

Sheary Erod Thompson = 40 goals

Girgensons Larsson Okposo = 29 goals plus Sobotka’s 3 for 32

Dahlin Montour = 24 goals

McCabe Risto = 10 goals

Scandella Miller = 10 goals add another 2 each for Bogo and Nelson for 14 goals

Edited by GASabresIUFAN

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The Sabres were among or the worst of all teams in the NHL at consistently generating scoring chances from dangerous areas. 

They added Vesey and Johansson, and should expect some development from Mitts. Olofsson is a wildcard.

Anything can happen, but I think the safe pick is that as constructed this roster is still going to struggle to score relative to the rest of the league. My guess would be that they're still in the bottom third fairly comfortably 

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32 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

The Sabres were among or the worst of all teams in the NHL at consistently generating scoring chances from dangerous areas. 

They added Vesey and Johansson, and should expect some development from Mitts. Olofsson is a wildcard.

Anything can happen, but I think the safe pick is that as constructed this roster is still going to struggle to score relative to the rest of the league. My guess would be that they're still in the bottom third fairly comfortably 

I agree with you, but I don't see why this has to be. Watching other teams (I'm thinking specifically of the Bruins ), it simply doesn't matter when Tim Schaller is on the ice. They still carry play. I'm not sure if it is development, bad FA choices, or just the system they run, but for the past decade the Sabres 3rd and 4th lines have consistently gotten caved in. To me, that's the biggest difference between where the Sabres are and where they should be. When Moulson/Sobotka/Deslaurier/Legwand get a shift, not giving up a goal is a fantastic outcome. This must change, immediately. Even if they obtain a legit 2C, they need all 4 lines to be dangerous. This can come partly from having a more mobile and fast defense, but there must not be any weak links within the forwards. I believe the fastest way to this result is to cut, demote, or bench players that are regardless of contract status (sunk cost). Perhaps that would release the brakes on the offense.    

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1 hour ago, Doctor of Philhousley said:

I agree with you, but I don't see why this has to be. Watching other teams (I'm thinking specifically of the Bruins ), it simply doesn't matter when Tim Schaller is on the ice. They still carry play. I'm not sure if it is development, bad FA choices, or just the system they run, but for the past decade the Sabres 3rd and 4th lines have consistently gotten caved in. To me, that's the biggest difference between where the Sabres are and where they should be. When Moulson/Sobotka/Deslaurier/Legwand get a shift, not giving up a goal is a fantastic outcome. This must change, immediately. Even if they obtain a legit 2C, they need all 4 lines to be dangerous. This can come partly from having a more mobile and fast defense, but there must not be any weak links within the forwards. I believe the fastest way to this result is to cut, demote, or bench players that are regardless of contract status (sunk cost). Perhaps that would release the brakes on the offense.    

Last season the forwards who were truly caved in were Sobotka, Thompson, Okposo, and Mittelstadt.  They are the players who had shot share numbers far worse than should be expected given their deployment.  That’s most of what would generally be considered the middle-6.  Girgensons and Larsson didn’t do badly considering they were given the most defensive deployment in the league.  It’s the middle-6 (in addition to the D) that needed serious upgrades.  They got some upgrades in Johansson and maybe Vesey, but that’s definitely not enough.  Olofsson and growth from Mitts may also help, but still, not enough.  

In order to be a truly good team, Buffalo needed to add 3 legitimate 2nd line quality players on top of what they had last season.  If Johansson is his very best self, Mittelstadt takes a huge leap forward, and Olofsson is a ready made 20+ goal/40+ pt player, then that brings the team close.  However, each of those things is unlikely to be true, and the probability that all of them come to pass is almost nil.  

As things stand now, this team will probably still struggle to stay in the playoff hunt, despite being upgraded over last season.

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On 8/24/2019 at 4:29 PM, nfreeman said:

 

I am pretty confident that Vesey will have a season that obliterates Pommer's last few seasons, and Pommer's effectiveness will be even more diminished this year.

We shall see.

Or as he has done for the last 2 season, Vesey will just roughly match what Pommers did. 

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On 8/24/2019 at 6:56 PM, GASabresIUFAN said:

Except players blossom at different times and in different situations.  William Karlsson was a 25 pt player on CBJ and they let him walk in the expansion draft for nothing.  Now the other 31 teams would love to have him after he proved himself as a top line talent in LV.  

There are many other examples in recent years.  Maybe this is Vesey’s Karlsson type opportunity.  I’d be happy if he scores 20 and gives us some depth scoring for as little as Jbot paid.  However there is a real chance he blossoms on Jack’s wing.

There's little chance he "blossoms". At best we might see 20-25 goals if he gets pp time. 

Karlsson went from 13min a night to 18 and #1pp time. Sure he blossomed but he also regressed back to where he should be last year. Jimmy may look good this season but at his age he is what he is with only minor improvement expected. 

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2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Or as he has done for the last 2 season, Vesey will just roughly match what Pommers did. 

I think you're a bit pessimistic on this kid, all star no but he's not as bad you you allude.

Here's a write up on him before the trade:

And he perhaps came a step closer to reaching the peak of his powers in 2018-19 after carving out career highs in a number of categories.

He tallied 17 goals and achieved a career high in assists (18), points (35), games played (81), average total minutes of ice time (16:03) and shots (154).

There was also a dramatic improvement in Vesey’s play in the defensive zone with the forward buying into head coach David Quinn’s all-in philosophy.

Vesey dished out 79 hits, blocked 34 shots and had yet another career-high in takeaways with 50. He was a more polished player in 2018-19 and began to iron out the wrinkles in his game that had hindered his progress.

And, at 26-years-old it is fair to argue that Vesey’s best years of hockey could be ahead of him which means that you risk trading away a player who is still a work of progress and could still have plenty of room to morph into an elite talent. He has improved in each of his three years in the majors and it would be a shock if that upward trend didn’t continue going forward.

Edited by jsb
you're instead of your
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On 8/25/2019 at 12:37 PM, dudacek said:

Current lineup, career highs:

Skinner 40

Eichel 28

Okposo 27

Reinhart 25

Johansson 24

Sheary 23

Vesey 17

Girgensons 15

Mittelstadt 12

Scandella 11

Sobotka 11

Larsson 10

Bogosian 10

Miller 10

Dahlin 9

Montour 9

Rodrigues 9

Ristolainen 8

Thompson 7

McCabe 4

 

That’s more goals than any team in the NHL other than Tampa scored last year.

It would be shocking to see those totals from Okposo, Girgensons, Sobotka, or the defence as a whole, and while they might approach those totals, you certainly can’t expect them from Skinner, Sheary and Johansson. Olofsson might add something.

Could we see the Sabres score 250 this year? That would make them solidly middle-of-the-pack offensively. They had 226, 8th from the bottom last year.

This is insanity. Crazy season from Tampa that will be mostly forgotten due to crashing and burning in the first round. 

Edited by Thorny

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1 hour ago, jsb said:

I think you're a bit pessimistic on this kid, all star no but he's not as bad you you allude.

Here's a write up on him before the trade:

And he perhaps came a step closer to reaching the peak of his powers in 2018-19 after carving out career highs in a number of categories.

He tallied 17 goals and achieved a career high in assists (18), points (35), games played (81), average total minutes of ice time (16:03) and shots (154).

There was also a dramatic improvement in Vesey’s play in the defensive zone with the forward buying into head coach David Quinn’s all-in philosophy.

Vesey dished out 79 hits, blocked 34 shots and had yet another career-high in takeaways with 50. He was a more polished player in 2018-19 and began to iron out the wrinkles in his game that had hindered his progress.

And, at 26-years-old it is fair to argue that Vesey’s best years of hockey could be ahead of him which means that you risk trading away a player who is still a work of progress and could still have plenty of room to morph into an elite talent. He has improved in each of his three years in the majors and it would be a shock if that upward trend didn’t continue going forward.

Age curves for production say 25-27 is the peak. 28-29 starts a decline and 30 seems to be a cliff. So yes we could get 1 or 2 career years and that's great, but he's at best getting 30 once and that's only with powerplay time. 

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4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

There's little chance he "blossoms". At best we might see 20-25 goals if he gets pp time. 

Karlsson went from 13min a night to 18 and #1pp time. Sure he blossomed but he also regressed back to where he should be last year. Jimmy may look good this season but at his age he is what he is with only minor improvement expected. 

So a 17 goal scorer becomes a 25 goal scorer here for the price of a 3rd rd pick.  You talk about Karlsson getting more minutes overall and Pt time.  Vesey was a 14:30 guy last year, if gets a similar increase here and contributes 25 goals, I think we'll be thrilled. I confused why this is a bad thing?

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13 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

So a 17 goal scorer becomes a 25 goal scorer here for the price of a 3rd rd pick.  You talk about Karlsson getting more minutes overall and Pt time.  Vesey was a 14:30 guy last year, if gets a similar increase here and contributes 25 goals, I think we'll be thrilled. I confused why this is a bad thing?

Ice time and production are never linearly related

And players can score goals while being awful hockey players that detract from their team while on the ice - see Sheary's game last year

hence getting a player that scores goals for so cheap

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22 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Ice time and production are never linearly related

And players can score goals while being awful hockey players that detract from their team while on the ice - see Sheary's game last year

hence getting a player that scores goals for so cheap

Right. Laine has *averaged* 37 goals a season since coming into the league, at ages 18, 19, 20, to boot. Those are staggering goal-scoring numbers, and the Jets won't even consider giving him a long-term deal right now. There's more to it than outright goal-scoring numbers. 

I don't really care if Vesey scores 30 goals this season if his impacts are similar to a Laine. 

Edited by Thorny

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49 minutes ago, inkman said:

Longest. Off-season. Ever. 

Just wait until Jack and Skinner collide in training camp and both suffer season ending injuries. 

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3 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

So a 17 goal scorer becomes a 25 goal scorer here for the price of a 3rd rd pick.  You talk about Karlsson getting more minutes overall and Pt time.  Vesey was a 14:30 guy last year, if gets a similar increase here and contributes 25 goals, I think we'll be thrilled. I confused why this is a bad thing?

Vesey averaged 16:03 according to hockey reference last year. Also Karlsson regressed. He was never going to come close to maintaining a 24% shot percentage. So sure vesey could see an uptick, but it's about usage more than him breaking out. 

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3 hours ago, Thorny said:

Right. Laine has *averaged* 37 goals a season since coming into the league, at ages 18, 19, 20, to boot. Those are staggering goal-scoring numbers, and the Jets won't even consider giving him a long-term deal right now. There's more to it than outright goal-scoring numbers. 

I don't really care if Vesey scores 30 goals this season if his impacts are similar to a Laine. 

Interesting.  So the expectation in Winny is either a short-term bridge deal or a trade? 

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57 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Vesey averaged 16:03 according to hockey reference last year. Also Karlsson regressed. He was never going to come close to maintaining a 24% shot percentage. So sure vesey could see an uptick, but it's about usage more than him breaking out. 

Karlsson is also a great all-around hockey player, something Vesey isn't. His goal totals came down on shooting percentage but he was still a capable 1C on a team that should have won at least one playoff series

Jimmy is a depth winger on a team that has brutal offensive depth and yet traded him for a third

Jimmy could be a good player for us but there's plenty of context with him worth talking about

Edited by Randall Flagg

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2 hours ago, Wyldnwoody44 said:

Just wait until Jack and Skinner collide in training camp and both suffer season ending injuries. 

molly ringwald shut up GIF

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22 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

molly ringwald shut up GIF

I'll shut mine.... If she opens hers 😘👺👺

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8 hours ago, Wyldnwoody44 said:

I'll shut mine.... If she opens hers 😘👺👺

correct breaking bad GIF

Edited by Doohickie
I searched for You're a bad man in the gifs but it gave me this instead, so I'm going with it.

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