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GASabresIUFAN

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2 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Disagree.  Cody McCormick was out on LTIR because of future blood clots.  

I don't think that is accurate.  He was on blood thinners to treat what had already happened.  There is no legitimate doctor that is going to clear someone on anti coagulants to play a game with sharpened blades and high speed contact.  It wasn't future blood clots that kept him medically unavailable, it was the reality of bleeding to death in the event of a bruise or a cut.

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1 minute ago, Tondas said:

I'm sorry I'm so old.  😀  Fair enough.  But I think LTIR has less to do with the player's wishes than it is has to do with the doctors. lawyers and the players union.

I guess the question is a team has doctors that say “this guy shouldn’t play” and the player has doctors who say “this guy can play”, what happens next?  I don’t know, but I think it rarely comes up because teams attempt to maintain positive relationships with players whenever possible.  No organization wants to be known for trying to force unwilling players into retirement as I think most players fear the end of their player career.  It’s a bad look for a team.

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5 minutes ago, Curt said:

I guess the question is a team has doctors that say “this guy shouldn’t play” and the player has doctors who say “this guy can play”, what happens next?  I don’t know, but I think it rarely comes up because teams attempt to maintain positive relationships with players whenever possible.  No organization wants to be known for trying to force unwilling players into retirement as I think most players fear the end of their player career.  It’s a bad look for a team.

The LaFontaine history:

The 1996–97 season was the beginning of the end of his career. In a game against the Pittsburgh Penguins, LaFontaine was hammered by François Leroux with a high hit to the head, knocking him out with a concussion, and resulted in post-concussion syndrome. He was determined to return, even though the doctors advised against such an attempt. Sabres management, in conjunction with team doctors and specialists, refused to clear LaFontaine to return, and recommended he retire. LaFontaine, still believing he could play, was traded to the New York Rangers in a cost-cutting measure for a second round draft choice in the 1998 NHL Entry Draft and future considerations on September 29, 1997.

The difference here is that no team would trade for Kyle with his contract.  Truly, uncharted territory.

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58 minutes ago, Tondas said:

OK, but shouldn't the Sabres be able to get a 2nd and/or 3rd opinion on that fact?   If a doctor says Kyle is not fit to play, the Sabres get out of a 4 year albatross contract.  Are the Sabres just stupid?  Is it up to Kyle entirely?  Do the Sabres have a say in his medical clearance?  All I hear is that the Kyle contract  is a drain on resources.  Then why not get a doctor to certify this and put him on LTIR?

Actually, if he goes to BF-LTIR rather than retirement, he gets every penny that is owed him over the duration of the contract.  The Sabres likely have an insurance policy to cover that contingency, so they might kind of get out of the contract, but they'll still be on the hook for whatever the deductible is at a minimum and Botterill would have to do some minor / easy dancing to stay cap compliant.

54 minutes ago, Curt said:

I don’t think it’s really Buffalo’s decision to make.  They can’t force a player onto LTIR.  The player has to agree to it.

Don't recall if it's the team, the player, or the league that initiates the process to enter BF-LTIR (and don't have access to the CBA at present), but once begun technically it is the teams / player's doctor in coordination with the league's medical staff that determines when the player exits the program.

There was a player (Lupol IIRC) that wanted to get cleared to play but didn't get cleared.  So, apparently, they can force a player into/ remain in the status.

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2 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Actually, if he goes to BF-LTIR rather than retirement, he gets every penny that is owed him over the duration of the contract.  The Sabres likely have an insurance policy to cover that contingency, so they might kind of get out of the contract, but they'll still be on the hook for whatever the deductible is at a minimum and Botterill would have to do some minor / easy dancing to stay cap compliant.

Don't recall if it's the team, the player, or the league that initiates the process to enter BF-LTIR (and don't have access to the CBA at present), but once begun technically it is the teams / player's doctor in coordination with the league's medical staff that determines when the player exits the program.

There was a player (Lupol IIRC) that wanted to get cleared to play but didn't get cleared.  So, apparently, they can force a player into/ remain in the status.

Great info Taro.  I think the Sabres are more concerned with the cap hit since the insurance company is picking up the largest part of his salary.  Their motivation may be to get Kyle to admit to LTIR (along with his doctors approval). 

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15 minutes ago, Tondas said:

The LaFontaine history:

The 1996–97 season was the beginning of the end of his career. In a game against the Pittsburgh Penguins, LaFontaine was hammered by François Leroux with a high hit to the head, knocking him out with a concussion, and resulted in post-concussion syndrome. He was determined to return, even though the doctors advised against such an attempt. Sabres management, in conjunction with team doctors and specialists, refused to clear LaFontaine to return, and recommended he retire. LaFontaine, still believing he could play, was traded to the New York Rangers in a cost-cutting measure for a second round draft choice in the 1998 NHL Entry Draft and future considerations on September 29, 1997.

The difference here is that no team would trade for Kyle with his contract.  Truly, uncharted territory.

Haha, I literally read that exact thing from wiki after your early post to see what exactly happened when LaFontaine left.

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16 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Actually, if he goes to BF-LTIR rather than retirement, he gets every penny that is owed him over the duration of the contract.  The Sabres likely have an insurance policy to cover that contingency, so they might kind of get out of the contract, but they'll still be on the hook for whatever the deductible is at a minimum and Botterill would have to do some minor / easy dancing to stay cap compliant.

Don't recall if it's the team, the player, or the league that initiates the process to enter BF-LTIR (and don't have access to the CBA at present), but once begun technically it is the teams / player's doctor in coordination with the league's medical staff that determines when the player exits the program.

There was a player (Lupol IIRC) that wanted to get cleared to play but didn't get cleared.  So, apparently, they can force a player into/ remain in the status.

 

29 minutes ago, Curt said:

I guess the question is a team has doctors that say “this guy shouldn’t play” and the player has doctors who say “this guy can play”, what happens next?  I don’t know, but I think it rarely comes up because teams attempt to maintain positive relationships with players whenever possible.  No organization wants to be known for trying to force unwilling players into retirement as I think most players fear the end of their player career.  It’s a bad look for a team.

Thanks for the info.  Like I posted above, I would still think a team would want to avoid being seen as forcing a player to LTIR to avoid their cap hit.  Taking away a player’s dream in order to save some cash?  It could really sour players across the league on that organization.  So, probably would tread very carefully around these type of situations.

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2 minutes ago, Curt said:

 

Thanks for the info.  Like I posted above, I would still think a team would want to avoid being seen as forcing a player to LTIR to avoid their cap hit.  Taking away a player’s dream in order to save some cash?  It could really sour players across the league on that organization.  So, probably would tread very carefully around these type of situations.

It goes further than that to me. I find it pretty disgusting that people would force a fully functioning adult into an early retirement to save cap space on a contract they agreed to. KO knows the risk and wants to play, nobody is at any risk to suffer any harm except for him. Let the man play as long as he is well and able. Any player can suffer a severally debilitating concussion the next time they step on the ice, doesn’t mean they shouldn’t play. If the Sabres pulled that I would be very much soured on the organization, and I can’t say I’ve said that over many things. It’s about freedom, not finances. 

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8 minutes ago, #freejame said:

It goes further than that to me. I find it pretty disgusting that people would force a fully functioning adult into an early retirement to save cap space on a contract they agreed to. KO knows the risk and wants to play, nobody is at any risk to suffer any harm except for him. Let the man play as long as he is well and able. Any player can suffer a severally debilitating concussion the next time they step on the ice, doesn’t mean they shouldn’t play. If the Sabres pulled that I would be very much soured on the organization, and I can’t say I’ve said that over many things. It’s about freedom, not finances. 

I basically agree, and think that’s why teams don’t seem to try to force unwilling players onto LTIR with saving cap space as the main motivating factor.  It doesn’t appear to be a thing that happens in the NHL.  These situations seem to be handled with a great deal of respect for the player.  It seems to be a very case by case type thing, depending on the player, the team, and the medical situation.

Edited by Curt

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29 minutes ago, #freejame said:

It goes further than that to me. I find it pretty disgusting that people would force a fully functioning adult into an early retirement to save cap space on a contract they agreed to. KO knows the risk and wants to play, nobody is at any risk to suffer any harm except for him. Let the man play as long as he is well and able. Any player can suffer a severally debilitating concussion the next time they step on the ice, doesn’t mean they shouldn’t play. If the Sabres pulled that I would be very much soured on the organization, and I can’t say I’ve said that over many things. It’s about freedom, not finances. 

This hypothetical discussion began with a debate over health vs. freedom, not finances.  Finances were a by product.  Kyle wants to play.  The Sabres are concerned about his health.  Doctors from either side disagree with the risks.  I would be more soured on the organization if they let  a player play knowing the risks and didn't protect the player from himself.  Again, this is similar to the LaFontaine case.  Who was right and who was wrong?  Each side believed in their principles.

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9 minutes ago, Tondas said:

This hypothetical discussion began with a debate over health vs. freedom, not finances.  Finances were a by product.  Kyle wants to play.  The Sabres are concerned about his health.  Doctors from either side disagree with the risks.  I would be more soured on the organization if they let  player play knowing the risks and didn't protect the player from himself.  Again, this is similar to the LaFontaine case.  Who was right and who was wrong?  Each side believed in their principles.

If the Sabres do not believe Kyle is functioning then they have the right to get him tested. To my knowledge, he’s passed those tests. To not allow a functional person to participate in something they are able to do because you are concerned for them is wrong. It does not matter if it is in their best interest. They want to do it, they are cognitive, and they are under contract. It’s their choice. Kyle is the only person with the potential to suffer, if he’s willing to risk it so be it. I don’t see any parallels to PL except they both have concussions and maybe the Sabres don’t want Okposo to play, though I’ve never read that. He’s been cleared of all of his injuries, unlike the PL situation. And if the Sabres truly were concerned for something other than the bottom line, they wouldn’t have traded him. For that matter, if PL was cleared cognitive, and he wants to play after weighing the risk, so be it. It’s none of our brains. 

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4 minutes ago, #freejame said:

If the Sabres do not believe Kyle is functioning then they have the right to get him tested. To my knowledge, he’s passed those tests. To not allow a functional person to participate in something they are able to do because you are concerned for them is wrong. It does not matter if it is in their best interest. They want to do it, they are cognitive, and they are under contract. It’s their choice. Kyle is the only person with the potential to suffer, if he’s willing to risk it so be it. I don’t see any parallels to PL except they both have concussions and maybe the Sabres don’t want Okposo to play, though I’ve never read that. He’s been cleared of all of his injuries, unlike the PL situation. And if the Sabres truly were concerned for something other than the bottom line, they wouldn’t have traded him. For that matter, if PL was cleared cognitive, and he wants to play after weighing the risk, so be it. It’s none of our brains. 

I have a different viewpoint on that.  They traded him to let him do what he wanted for an organization that was willing to let him harm himself.  You could say the Sabres did him a favor by letting him continue his career, harmful as it turned out to be.

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1 minute ago, Weave said:

I have a different viewpoint on that.  They traded him to let him do what he wanted for an organization that was willing to let him harm himself.  You could say the Sabres did him a favor by letting him continue his career, harmful as it turned out to be.

I can see it both ways, and relating specifically to this point my opinion is very much in-flux. I guess I would need to know more about the situation regarding him not being cleared by Buffalo and personally being cleared by another doctor to fully form an opinion on what was right. 

 

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1 minute ago, #freejame said:

I can see it both ways, and relating specifically to this point my opinion is very much in-flux. I guess I would need to know more about the situation regarding him not being cleared by Buffalo and personally being cleared by another doctor to fully form an opinion on what was right. 

 

Read the full concussion history on LaFontaine.  It's out there.  I'm too unmotivated to hunt it down. He was having concussion issues when he was still with the Islanders.  Then 3 more if my memory serves with Buffalo.  The guy needed to hang it up. 

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1 minute ago, Weave said:

Read the full concussion history on LaFontaine.  It's out there.  I'm too unmotivated to hunt it down. He was having concussion issues when he was still with the Islanders.  Then 3 more if my memory serves with Buffalo.  The guy needed to hang it up. 

I read what was up-thread, but I’ll look for some more. Either way, in today’s league I would be surprised if one team could not clear a player they were allowed to go to another team who would then clear them 

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1 minute ago, #freejame said:

I read what was up-thread, but I’ll look for some more. Either way, in today’s league I would be surprised if one team could not clear a player they were allowed to go to another team who would then clear them 

It was a very different league then.  Well before the concussion lawsuits.

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Just now, Weave said:

It was a very different league then.  Well before the concussion lawsuits.

Do OSHA regulations apply to the NHL?  It seems that they should.  It's all about workplace safely and keeping employees out of harms way.  If a coal miner wanted to take the risk of working in an unsafe mine, would the employer let him?  It's not always up to the employee i.e. Kyle.

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2 minutes ago, Tondas said:

Do OSHA regulations apply to the NHL?  It seems that they should.  It's all about workplace safely and keeping employees out of harms way.  If a coal miner wanted to take the risk of working in an unsafe mine, would the employer let him?  It's not always up to the employee i.e. Kyle.

I feel about the same way.  An employer has a responsibility to protect you from yourself while, at least during the time you are actually working for them.

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57 minutes ago, Tondas said:

This hypothetical discussion began with a debate over health vs. freedom, not finances.  Finances were a by product.  Kyle wants to play.  The Sabres are concerned about his health.  Doctors from either side disagree with the risks.  I would be more soured on the organization if they let  a player play knowing the risks and didn't protect the player from himself.  Again, this is similar to the LaFontaine case.  Who was right and who was wrong?  Each side believed in their principles.

One thing to keep in mind in this entire discussion is if / when Okposo isn't considered one of the 4 best RWs on the team, the team develops a huge incentive to have him no longer playing (at least for them, and given his salary it is hard to see anyone trading for him).

This discussion seems to be based upon Kyle being a legit NHLer.  But, should his talent depreciate to a minor degree from last year, he wouldn't be a legit NHLer and regardless of whether he wants to be in the 20 dressed on any given night or not, he won't be.

And then the question becomes, does he keep battling to be an NHLer even from the press box or Ra-cha-cha, does he retire outright (foregoing his remaining salary), retire due to injury (collects remaining salary as the injury was due to a hockey related injury), or go onto BF-LTIR?  And at that point, the BF-LTIR may be the best play for both parties.

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1 hour ago, #freejame said:

It goes further than that to me. I find it pretty disgusting that people would force a fully functioning adult into an early retirement to save cap space on a contract they agreed to. KO knows the risk and wants to play, nobody is at any risk to suffer any harm except for him. Let the man play as long as he is well and able. Any player can suffer a severally debilitating concussion the next time they step on the ice, doesn’t mean they shouldn’t play. If the Sabres pulled that I would be very much soured on the organization, and I can’t say I’ve said that over many things. It’s about freedom, not finances. 

This is reasonable.  A different but related question is:  what if the motivation is that JB (or TP, or whoever the decision-maker is) is legitimately concerned that one more big hit to the head will leave KO with a serious and degenerative condition that will materially impair his life (and his family's) from the age of 33 onward?

I appreciate your point about personal freedom, and I'm not sure what I would decide if I were the one who had to make the call for the Sabres, but I can understand someone saying "take the money, but I'm not going to sign off on you getting on the ice again and risking everything."

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24 minutes ago, Tondas said:

Do OSHA regulations apply to the NHL?  It seems that they should.  It's all about workplace safely and keeping employees out of harms way.  If a coal miner wanted to take the risk of working in an unsafe mine, would the employer let him?  It's not always up to the employee i.e. Kyle.

In this instance the mining company (Sabres) has a mine as safe as a mine can be (hockey) with an employee (KO) with a lung condition (head) who was cleared to dig. KO is in the same mine he’s always been in, just with a preexisting condition. 

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45 minutes ago, Tondas said:

Do OSHA regulations apply to the NHL?  It seems that they should.  It's all about workplace safely and keeping employees out of harms way.  If a coal miner wanted to take the risk of working in an unsafe mine, would the employer let him?  It's not always up to the employee i.e. Kyle.

I’m an OSHA Outreach trainer on the side...OSHA regulations apply to anyone working for the Sabres on any of their property. Filming, maintenance etc. The players are independent contractors and are not covered by OSHA. 

Coal miners(and any other miner) are also not covered by OSHA...they’ll find their regulations in the MSHA standards.

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4 minutes ago, Ogre said:

I’m an OSHA Outreach trainer on the side...OSHA regulations apply to anyone working for the Sabres on any of their property. Filming, maintenance etc. The players are independent contractors and are not covered by OSHA. 

Coal miners(and any other miner) are also not covered by OSHA...they’ll find their regulations in the MSHA standards.

This board is great.  Is there any skill set or experience that is not represented?  Thanks, Ogre.

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15 minutes ago, Tondas said:

This board is great.  Is there any skill set or experience that is not represented?  Thanks, Ogre.

No problem. I’d also like to add that the OSHA standards are bare minimum. These standards are the no-brainer/least I should do/moron if I don’t standards. Any employer that doesn’t go far above and beyond with their own rules and regs are GD fools. 

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So Botterill has made repeated references to wanting scoring on all four lines.

Should we be taking that more seriously? What if Ralph comes out with something unexpected like putting one of the big three on each line?

Vesey Eichel Sheary

Skinner Johansson Okposo

Olofsson Mittelstadt Reinhart

Girgensons Larsson Rodrigues

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