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Buffalo Bills 2019-2020

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54 minutes ago, Neo said:

I don’t look at OJ as either/or.  I don’t think North Buffalo does, either.  I hear NB.   It’s just as simplistic to say “he killed two people” as it is to say “he was the greatest”.  Both are true.  I’m not conflating the significance of each sentence.

OJ as a topic is complicated.  I wrote, once, that Mohammad Ali, the person, was complicated.  They stand alone as sports and cultural phenomena.  There’s not another athlete I can put into their category.  Not Ruth, not Mays, not Michael, not LeBron.  When “Buffalo was the armpit of the east”, The Juice lived here.  He’d tell you how great it was.  They’d read that in NYC, LA, Dallas and Chicago.

I’m not able to feel the personal pain the victims and their families feel.  I am left with disappointment, certainly a lesser burden.  OJ thrilled us.  As importantly, he represented us.  We hitched ourselves to his star.  Life’s funny.  I played keep away football with him at the Thruway Exit 56 motel in the early 70s.  Imagine that training camp site in simpler times.  Later in life, I saw him in a nearly empty bar, in Buffalo.  He was with an Oakland Raider training staff member, in town as part of a broadcast crew.  Breaking a celebrity rule I have, I approached him to tell him I’d chased him through fields 25 years earlier.  He asked me to sit down and we had a beer, together.  I vibrated.  I understand NB’s connection.

Disappointed is the best I’ve got.  Something meaningful to me died that June night. I don’t care happens to the number.  That’s my loss.  NB’s not lost that feeling.  Good for him.

Promise I’m asking this for legitimate clarity’s sake: bringing Ali into this, how are you making that connection? Are you saying he and OJ are complicate for what they’ve done throughout their lives or purely for who they were as athletes in their prime?

1 hour ago, sodbuster said:

It's so painfully "Buffalo." He's without a doubt the best player in the history of the franchise, and has a case to be considered the best in the history of his position, and we can't even celebrate him, because he turned out to be an absolute trash can of a human being. We can't have nice things.

Although, I have to admit, when Zay got the call from the Bills war room while wearing the OJ t-shirt, I couldn't help but chuckle.

Is he without a doubt the best player in Bills history or does Bruce have an argument there?

Edited by Hoss

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Just now, Hoss said:

Promise I’m asking this for legitimate clarity’s sake: bringing Ali into this, how are you making that connection? Are you saying he and OJ are complicate for what they’ve done throughout their lives or purely for who they were as athletes in their prime?

Not speaking for Neo, but probably both..

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I hate OJ for what he did or became, but I can't lose those memories of simpler times when he was just the Juice and a childhood hero...

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6 hours ago, Samson's Flow said:

Tyler Kroft broke his foot today in OTA's - out 3-4 months.

Then he killed two people.

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3 minutes ago, Eleven said:

Then he killed two people.

You need to be more specific. Were they valuable human beings or were they human trash?

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Just now, SDS said:

You need to be more specific. Were they valuable human beings or were they human trash?

Why not one of each?  Why is that not an option, you trashist?

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1 minute ago, Eleven said:

Why not one of each?  Why is that not an option, you trashist?

Too messy. I prefer to look at overly simplistic attributes of an individual to determine if they’re worthy of life.

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1 minute ago, SDS said:

Too messy. I prefer to look at overly simplistic attributes of an individual to determine if they’re worthy of life.

Then he killed two people.

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To Hoss ...  you went straight to the heart of my post.  I edited.  I still didn't get it right.  Ali was a complicated person.  OJ is a complicated topic.  At first, I just said they were both complicated.  That’s inadequate.  My edit isn’t much better.

The complicated topic refers to separating what OJ gave me from who he is.  I dont think he’s a particularly complicated person, anymore than any other narcissistic psychopath.  Ali, well he was a complicated person.

Since seeing Leaving Neverland, I’ve wondered about enjoying Michael Jackson’s music.  A bartender said to me “I just celebrate the music and forget the musician”.  Works for her.  I’m sure she’s a good person.

As to using the two, together, I refer only to their stature and ability to transcend their art.  They were two bests who became more than that.  I revere Ali, today.  Some quarrel with me over this.

I think there’s room to understand NB and what he remembers about OJ  because it was all joy.  I can acknowledge this, and still condemn OJ.

 

Edited by Neo
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46 minutes ago, Neo said:

To Hoss ...  you went straight to the heart of my post.  I edited.  I still didn't get it right.  Ali was a complicated person.  OJ is a complicated topic.  At first, I just said they were both complicated.  That’s inadequate.  My edit isn’t much better.

The complicated topic refers to separating what OJ gave me from who he is.  I dont think he’s a particularly complicated person, anymore than any other narcissistic psychopath.  Ali, well he was a complicated person.

Since seeing Leaving Neverland, I’ve wondered about enjoying Michael Jackson’s music.  A bartender said to me “I just celebrate the music and forget the musician”.  Works for her.  I’m sure she’s a good person.

As to using the two, together, I refer only to their stature and ability to transcend their art.  They were two bests who became more than that.  I revere Ali, today.  Some quarrel with me over this.

I think there’s room to understand NB and what he remembers about OJ  because it was all joy.  I can acknowledge this, and still condemn OJ.

 

I very much struggle with separating the person from the “entertainer.” I don’t view them as separate souls. They are a marriage that doesn’t even end with death, and so when someone does something ghastly I simply cannot look back on their production with any sort of kind eye while ignoring what was in their heart. The same heart that drove them to great success drove them to commit unspeakable acts.

Down with OJ, down with MJ, damn the man who cannot hold themself to a higher standard.

I do not hold any form of resentment towards those who can acknowledge who OJ is and what he’s done while still wanting his number held aside for the rest of the franchise’s time in Buffalo. I reserve that for the people committing the crime.

Edited by Hoss
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A quote from Abraham Lincoln about the alcoholic but could be attributed to the duality of human existence including OJ...  Is he just a bad man or more complicated, though it throws out my argument about not caring about the murder of two bad people by another:

https://silkworth.net/pages/washingtonians/abraham_lincoln_on_alcoholism.php

Edited by North Buffalo

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13 hours ago, Samson's Flow said:

Tyler Kroft broke his foot today in OTA's - out 3-4 months.

Joe Buscaglia ‏Verified account @JoeBuscaglia 1m1 minute ago Kroft's broken foot is the same one he broke last season as a member of the Cincinnati Bengals. #Bills

Given his history, I had wondered why this particular staff signed him. Now that this has happened, I wonder whether they’ll keep him on.

Also, broken feet among NFL route runners strikes me as among the most inevitable issues in that game. The way those guys punish their feet with pressure, torque, etc. is insane.

12 hours ago, Taro T said:

Not entirely sure I agree there.

There was a time he was THE best player in the game & the Bills as a (misguided IMHO) policy didn't retire #'s so they did the Ralph Wilson Special & simply locked the # away.  It made sense for nobody wearing it prior to '94.

Since then, by putting it back into service they're calling attention to a double murderer that did a fair amount of time for committing other felonies.  Yes, after 3-4 men have worn the # there likely won't be a stigma there.  But why go there?  Why should the self-centered pr### get a non completely negative moment in the sun?

When he finally croaks, then bring the # back into rotation.  And ideally, only give it to UDFAs that stand almost no chance of making the team.  Or give it to the punter.  Make the number a pathetic joke of a uni, so that's how it gets remembered.  My 2 cents.

I agree: The franchise should have kept the number shelved.

9 hours ago, North Buffalo said:

just saying back then stuff like this was happening Jerry Butler was notorious never made the papers. Mom was a counselor and I heard stories as a kid about lots of football players though they didnt murder anyone.  And again she and Goldman were notorious drug users...

Ignoring what he did for the Bills and how little the NFL helped players emotionally struggling post career given how much they made off them nuff said, but back when I grew up OJ was every kids hero... So allowing his number to be used now to me is wrong.

Guess we will have to disagree.

Dude.

7 hours ago, Neo said:

I don’t look at OJ as either/or.  I don’t think North Buffalo does, either.  I hear NB.   It’s just as simplistic to say “he killed two people” as it is to say “he was the greatest”.  Both are true.  I’m not conflating the significance of each sentence.

OJ as a topic is complicated.  I wrote, once, that Mohammad Ali, the person, was complicated.  They stand alone as sports and cultural phenomena.  There’s not another athlete I can put into their category.  Not Ruth, not Mays, not Michael, not LeBron.  When “Buffalo was the armpit of the east”, The Juice lived here.  He’d tell you how great it was.  They’d read that in NYC, LA, Dallas and Chicago.

I’m not able to feel the personal pain the victims and their families feel.  I am left with disappointment, certainly a lesser burden.  OJ thrilled us.  As importantly, he represented us.  We hitched ourselves to his star.  Life’s funny.  I played keep away football with him at the Thruway Exit 56 motel in the early 70s.  Imagine that training camp site in simpler times.  Later in life, I saw him in a nearly empty bar, in Buffalo.  He was with an Oakland Raider training staff member, in town as part of a broadcast crew.  Breaking a celebrity rule I have, I approached him to tell him I’d chased him through fields 25 years earlier.  He asked me to sit down and we had a beer, together.  I vibrated.  I understand NB’s connection.

Disappointed is the best I’ve got.  Something meaningful to me died that June night. I don’t care happens to the number.  That’s my loss.  NB’s not lost that feeling.  Good for him.

He was absolutely magnetic and electrifying, on and off the field. That’s for sure. As for being like that off the field: Narcissistic sociopaths can be that way, I’m told (as you seem to have acknowledged).

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16 hours ago, SDS said:

The elephant in the room goes away once it is reissued a bunch of times. It's a story for a year or two and then no one will care. There are a lot of people whose concept of sports hasn't changed since the mid-70s. The 20-year olds don't give a flip about OJ Simpson the football player nor the murderer. 

The Bills have done the right thing, IMO. Enough time has passed and the number isn't getting retired. That anyone cares about what he did on the field prior to what he did after is mind-boggling.

How long does it take and how many reissues are needed before the topic dies?  I have no idea what the answer is to that one, but I suspect that it will take more time than it's worth. 

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33 minutes ago, shrader said:

How long does it take and how many reissues are needed before the topic dies?  I have no idea what the answer is to that one, but I suspect that it will take more time than it's worth. 

My opinion? This will be the last time the media reports on it as a large story. Next time, it will be a few bloggers and message board types and then it will hit the tail end of the Gaussian curve.

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1 minute ago, SDS said:

My opinion? This will be the last time the media reports on it as a large story. Next time, it will be a few bloggers and message board types and then it will hit the tail end of the Gaussian curve.

Unless you get the guy who chooses the number as a tribute to OJ.  Sadly I think that's a real possibility.

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8 minutes ago, shrader said:

Unless you get the guy who chooses the number as a tribute to OJ.  Sadly I think that's a real possibility.

I don't think anyone coming into the league going forward thinks about OJ as a player at all. I've got 10 years on any draft pick and OJ being a Bill was basically a trivia question for me growing up.

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12 minutes ago, sabills said:

I don't think anyone coming into the league going forward thinks about OJ as a player at all. I've got 10 years on any draft pick and OJ being a Bill was basically a trivia question for me growing up.

Right, which means if they're wearing it in tribute, it's not a tribute to anything positive.  That element is certainly out there, the OJ was framed community.

And come on, there had to at least have been a couple Naked Gun movies in your youth.

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7 hours ago, North Buffalo said:

A quote from Abraham Lincoln about the alcoholic but could be attributed to the duality of human existence including OJ...  Is he just a bad man or more complicated, though it throws out my argument about not caring about the murder of two bad people by another:

https://silkworth.net/pages/washingtonians/abraham_lincoln_on_alcoholism.php

This works in some cases but it’s easier to separate a person from a disease than it is to separate a person from committing gruesome murder.

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Just now, shrader said:

Right, which means if they're wearing it in tribute, it's not a tribute to anything positive.  That element is certainly out there, the OJ was framed community.

And come on, there had to at least have been a couple Naked Gun movies in your youth.

A) No, I don't think they care about him at all. These guys were born after the trial.

B) I honestly knew him more because of Naked Gun than as a Bill, haha

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Very minor trivia: My Mother-in-Law once danced with OJ back in the 70's at a bar without knowing who he was.

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Yesterday, SabreSpace.  Today, the world.  “It’s complicated ...”.

https://sports.yahoo.com/buffalo-bills-finally-reissue-no-32-jersey-for-first-time-since-oj-simpson-wore-it-143513031.html

 

Edit to add:  In my efforts to frame a larger discussion and express an understanding of NB’s opinion, I ignored the original issue, jersey 32.  With a good night’s sleep, I have come to respect shelving (never remind, again) without retiring (honoring).

And, to Smell, who graciously used “sociopath” correctly in lieu of my “psychopath” without feeling the need to publicly correct me!  I had to googlize! 

Edited by Neo

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I have a very simplistic take on this topic. I just don't care.

Let's hope Perry (or someone else in the future) takes back ownership of the number from its negative connotations.

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The last few pages of this thread make the 2018 Bills offense look pretty good. 

Edited by TrueBlueGED
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This is one of the most sustained civil discussions I’ve seen here.

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19 hours ago, North Buffalo said:

Sorry for those of us who grew up with OJ this is blasphemy.  Later in life he sucked.  But with the Bills he was unreal.  Handed me and my friends oranges as we chased Bills on our bikes while they rode in old fash model Ts down Delaware Ave, signed a superman comic book at Buffalo airport.  He was larger than life back then.  His number should never be used..  seriously disappointed in the Bills.  

 

19 hours ago, North Buffalo said:

Hey understand why they dont officially retire his number, but it should not be used imo. New guy couldnt hold OJ's jock so why do it.

So -- is there *anything* OJ could've done post-Bills career that would make you feel differently? 

What if he were a child rapist?  What if he killed 10 people?  How about 100?

The point, of course, is that at some point it doesn't matter how great a player he was -- and he was a great freaking player -- if he's a bad enough guy, he shouldn't be honored by the team.  As others have noted, retiring/not using his # is unquestionably an honor bestowed on him by the team. 

 

17 hours ago, North Buffalo said:

Yeh because he murdered two white cocaine addicts its a big deal.  Not excusing him but really dont care about them.

What? 

If they hadn't been cocaine users, would you feel differently about retiring his #?

17 hours ago, North Buffalo said:

If they had been black and not rich barely anyone would have cared

Pure crapola here.

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