Camp Opens September 13th

[LGR4GM]

Rod - Asplund - Bapts line makes me feel things... good things. 

1 minute ago, WildCard said:

#Sabres lines for session two at HarborCenter:

Sheary-Mittelstadt-Pominville
Smith-Sobotka-Thompson
Rodrigues-Asplund-Baptiste
Girgensons-Malone-Randell / O’Regan

Guhle-Nelson
Beaulieu-Bogosian
Hickey-Tennyson
Porter (FW)-Borgen

 

[Randall Flagg]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

I think you are nitpicking. Reinhart was on the roster for camp. He isn't on the roster for today because he hasn't signed a deal and is not participating. Seems straight forward. 

Today is camp. This week was literally nothing except people skating because they got here early. 

And I wasn't picking it out to complain, I was explaining why it was confusing to me that Sam wasn't skating

[WildCard]

4 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Rod - Asplund - Bapts line makes me feel things... good things. 

Same

[Doohickie]

3 hours ago, WildCard said:

Well played Sheary 

Brown noser.

[Thorny]

6 hours ago, Hoss said:

Larry on a trash line makes me feel good vibes on the inside. Skinner-Eichel-Okposo (Samson likely in for Okposo in  no time, yes?)

I think Pominville is Sam's placeholder, in Group 2 alongside Mittelstadt. 

4 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

I'm talking about the list of players they sent out in a weird official list form a few days ago, before camp started. When players were just in town skating in circles and screwing around. That had me thinking Sam was at camp despite not having a contract and it's just weird to do IMO

https://nhl.bamcontent.com/images/assets/binary/300057566/binary-file/file.pdf

Sam is indeed listed on the official camp roster. 

Edited September 14, 2018 by Thorny

[dudacek]

Both Berglund and Sobotka open as centres, Rodrigues does not.

That, along with the Dahlin and Bogosian pairs is what caught my eye on day one.

[Thorny]

5 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Both Berglund and Sobotka open as centres, Rodrigues does not.

That, along with the Dahlin and Bogosian pairs is what caught my eye on day one.

This too, for me, and also that Mittelstadt looks to be the 2C should one put stock in these early lines. 

[Taro T]

7 hours ago, dudacek said:

Both Berglund and Sobotka open as centres, Rodrigues does not.

That, along with the Dahlin and Bogosian pairs is what caught my eye on day one.

Technically Sobotka was listed as the C on that line, but during the 5v5 drills, Thompson was lining up where the C presumably would be.  (Can't say he was lined up at C as they didn't actually drop a puck for a faceoff.)

Curious whether Pominville is Reinhart's placeholder or if Nylander is.  Expecting Okposo will have 1st chance to show he can be the corner man / mucker for Eichel/Skinner.  Would make sense that Pominville was the placeholder, but not everything always makes sense.

1 thing that stood out to me was how well Dahlin was doing boxing out his forward on 2v2 & 4v2 drills.  (At least when he didn't lose his stick.)

Also, knew Sheary was tiny and Thompson a giant, but standing near them that was more obvious than anticipated.

No surprise but Hutton & Ullmark were on a completely different level than the other 4.  Luukkonen looked better than expected.  Johansson looked to be headed back to Cincy.  Quite obvious he's on a lesser plane than even the 2 AHLers.

Also, good to see that for the 1st time in years, the Amerks will have some bodies that wouldn't be clearly over their heads in the NHL.  There will need to be actual debatable decisions on about 4 forward slots and at least 1 D.  

And for those looking to move on from Larsson & Girgensons, that both were on their session's 4th line says that may actually happen.

And for those looking for the "little things" from Eichel, he was 2nd (& well ahead of the pack) in the 1st rink skate at the end of practice & 1st in the 2nd one.

[pi2000]

I suspect because of his tenure (and contract) Okposo will get first shot with Eichel and Skinner.   

If Johansson goes to Cincy, who's in Roch?

If both Larsson and Girgensons make the team, JBOT failed.

 

 

[nfreeman]

Skinner - Eichel - KO has potential. A KO resurgence is not impossible.  

[dudacek]

21 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Skinner - Eichel - KO has potential. A KO resurgence is not impossible.  

Chemistry (and Okposo’s game) are tenuous things, but it has the potential to be he best Sabres line in ages.

47 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Technically Sobotka was listed as the C on that line, but during the 5v5 drills, Thompson was lining up where the C presumably would be.  (Can't say he was lined up at C as they didn't actually drop a puck for a faceoff.)

Curious whether Pominville is Reinhart's placeholder or if Nylander is.  Expecting Okposo will have 1st chance to show he can be the corner man / mucker for Eichel/Skinner.  Would make sense that Pominville was the placeholder, but not everything always makes sense.

1 thing that stood out to me was how well Dahlin was doing boxing out his forward on 2v2 & 4v2 drills.  (At least when he didn't lose his stick.)

Also, knew Sheary was tiny and Thompson a giant, but standing near them that was more obvious than anticipated.

No surprise but Hutton & Ullmark were on a completely different level than the other 4.  Luukkonen looked better than expected.  Johansson looked to be headed back to Cincy.  Quite obvious he's on a lesser plane than even the 2 AHLers.

Also, good to see that for the 1st time in years, the Amerks will have some bodies that wouldn't be clearly over their heads in the NHL.  There will need to be actual debatable decisions on about 4 forward slots and at least 1 D.  

And for those looking to move on from Larsson & Girgensons, that both were on their session's 4th line says that may actually happen.

And for those looking for the "little things" from Eichel, he was 2nd (& well ahead of the pack) in the 1st rink skate at the end of practice & 1st in the 2nd one.

Thanks for the on-site insight.

[Randall Flagg]

I don't mind starting Okie there, but if things ain't working (and I could see either wing being non-ideal for Jack) I just hope we remember the whole Casey-Kyle thing that was going on those last six games

[erickompositör72]

2 hours ago, pi2000 said:

If both Larsson and Girgensons make the team, JBOT failed.

Would that be a JBot call or a Phil call?

IMO, JBot has given Wowie plenty of options with which to put ahead of the two of them.

Call me crazy, but I actually have some hope that Girgensons can become a steady 4th liner on a winning team. Not conviction, but hope.

[dudacek]

10 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

I don't mind starting Okie there, but if things ain't working (and I could see either wing being non-ideal for Jack) I just hope we remember the whole Casey-Kyle thing that was going on those last six games

I’m still big on Jack/Conor, Sam/Jeff, Kyle/Casey

[Ogre]

12 hours ago, Taro T said:

 

No surprise but Hutton & Ullmark were on a completely different level than the other 4.  Luukkonen looked better than expected.  Johansson looked to be headed back to Cincy.  Quite obvious he's on a lesser plane than even the 2 AHLers.

 Dear God I hope Johansson goes back to Cincy. He was a tire fire when they called him up last year. 

[Ogre]

12 hours ago, pi2000 said:

 

If Johansson goes to Cincy, who's in Roch?

 

 

 How does 6k’s entry level contract work? Is he still on loan. I’d take him over Johansson all day.

[dudacek]

17 minutes ago, Ogre said:

 How does 6k’s entry level contract work? Is he still on loan. I’d take him over Johansson all day.

He can play in Rochester, but he won’t.

Youre going to get Wedgewood and Wilcox.

[Taro T]

15 hours ago, pi2000 said:

I suspect because of his tenure (and contract) Okposo will get first shot wit tn Eichel and Skinner.   

If Johansson goes to Cincy, who's in Roch?

If both Larsson and Girgensons make the team, JBOT failed.

 

 

See below on the Ra-cha-cha Q.

Agree on your 1st point.

As for the last point, IF 1 or both make the big club this year, that won't be on Botterill.  On day 1 of camp they were playing with players slotted in initially as forwards 22-29 on the depth chart.  IF they make it, they will have earned it or Housley has a screw loose (suppose technically that doesn't HAVE to be an either/or scenario) or the preseason will have decimated the forward ranks.

And, especially if Pominville is pencilled into the top 12, 1 of those 2 (most likely Girgensons) could be in the mix with Wilson as the 13th F.  Though my early preference is Pominville at 13.  (Expecting he's top 12 initially though.)

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

He can play in Rochester, but he won’t.

Youre going to get Wedgewood and Wilcox.

Correct.

Edited September 15, 2018 by Taro T

[dudacek]

Vogl with a look at some of the guys on the bubble, and there are a lot of them.

https://theathletic.com/526573/2018/09/15/training-camp-is-everyday-battle-for-nathan-beaulieu-others-after-sabres-overhaul-roster/

 

Interesting takeaway is is that the brass has spent a lot of time with Beaulieu and appear to be giving him every opportunity to succeed. It’s my sense he hasn’t been dedicated enough and/or has been troubled off ice.

Apparently, Botterill and Housley don’t want Beaulieu to be defined that way, either. The GM and coach talked to Beaulieu multiple times this offseason.

“It seems like they believe in me more than I even believe in myself,” Beaulieu said. “They kept their word of giving me every opportunity. It’s my turn to keep my word and play my game and give this city and this team what they deserve out of me.”

 

 

 

Edited September 16, 2018 by dudacek

[Andrew Amerk]

10 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Vogl with a look at some of the guys on the bubble, and there are a lot of them.

https://theathletic.com/526573/2018/09/15/training-camp-is-everyday-battle-for-nathan-beaulieu-others-after-sabres-overhaul-roster/

 

Interesting takeaway is is that the brass has spent a lot of time with Beaulieu and appear to be giving him every opportunity to succeed. It’s my sense he hasn’t been dedicated enough and/or has been troubled off ice.

Apparently, Botterill and Housley don’t want Beaulieu to be defined that way, either. The GM and coach talked to Beaulieu multiple times this offseason.

“It seems like they believe in me more than I even believe in myself,” Beaulieu said. “They kept their word of giving me every opportunity. It’s my turn to keep my word and play my game and give this city and this team what they deserve out of me.”

 

 

 

Ughhhh

[Sabel79]

24 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Vogl with a look at some of the guys on the bubble, and there are a lot of them.

https://theathletic.com/526573/2018/09/15/training-camp-is-everyday-battle-for-nathan-beaulieu-others-after-sabres-overhaul-roster/

 

Interesting takeaway is is that the brass has spent a lot of time with Beaulieu and appear to be giving him every opportunity to succeed. It’s my sense he hasn’t been dedicated enough and/or has been troubled off ice.

Apparently, Botterill and Housley don’t want Beaulieu to be defined that way, either. The GM and coach talked to Beaulieu multiple times this offseason.

“It seems like they believe in me more than I even believe in myself,” Beaulieu said. “They kept their word of giving me every opportunity. It’s my turn to keep my word and play my game and give this city and this team what they deserve out of me.”

 

 

 

Welp, that's 1/2 of ROR's job filled...

[Randall Flagg]

51 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Vogl with a look at some of the guys on the bubble, and there are a lot of them.

https://theathletic.com/526573/2018/09/15/training-camp-is-everyday-battle-for-nathan-beaulieu-others-after-sabres-overhaul-roster/

 

Interesting takeaway is is that the brass has spent a lot of time with Beaulieu and appear to be giving him every opportunity to succeed. It’s my sense he hasn’t been dedicated enough and/or has been troubled off ice.

Apparently, Botterill and Housley don’t want Beaulieu to be defined that way, either. The GM and coach talked to Beaulieu multiple times this offseason.

“It seems like they believe in me more than I even believe in myself,” Beaulieu said. “They kept their word of giving me every opportunity. It’s my turn to keep my word and play my game and give this city and this team what they deserve out of me.”

 

 

 

There's such a peculiar thing about summer. Even though I actively keep tabs on it, I, like John, tend to lock Pominville in. The only thing that keeps that from being permanent is that I trust my takes from when the hockey was fresh that this is unacceptable - not unacceptable for him to have a chance to win a role, just unacceptable for it to be locked in given his performance last year. 

It's amazing how time removes the worst memories. 

I don't even mind Beaulieu with Bogo, until I trust my past self and realize that if we really want to play cohesive NHL hockey, these guys cannot have more than depth/injury roles. 

[Hoss]

To be honest, I watched probably 70 Sabres games last year and paid very little attention most of that time. Pommer was very productive with 16-18-34 for a guy his age and I’m sure there’s a benefit to having him around beyond what he brings on the ice. What exactly was it about his play last year that brings hate (it’s not even mild disdain, it’s been mostly hate). I’m sure I could guess but i’d like to hear more from those paying attention.

[Randall Flagg]

1 hour ago, Hoss said:

To be honest, I watched probably 70 Sabres games last year and paid very little attention most of that time. Pommer was very productive with 16-18-34 for a guy his age and I’m sure there’s a benefit to having him around beyond what he brings on the ice. What exactly was it about his play last year that brings hate (it’s not even mild disdain, it’s been mostly hate). I’m sure I could guess but i’d like to hear more from those paying attention.

So this is approaching the exact territory I posted about roughly 500 times this year because of how it happened last offseason. 

We talk about a winning culture and internal competition. But we shot ourselves in the foot with that regard last year, when, despite fans being completely done with Matt Moulson, and knowing that for a full calendar year before October 2017  he was not an NHL-caliber player, he got a spot on the team. Phil and co. literally said they didn't watch tape of the season before and were giving everyone a fresh slate, and Moulson made the team with the typical vet/locker room leader type talk. There was an element of "the guy has 14 goals and 30+ points in limited minutes last year, of course he's making the team!" from both the team and some fans. But most fans knew that Moulson was shot and we were not icing our best roster with him on it. It took 14 games of zero points and abominable play before he was vanquished from the roster. Right from the get-go we sabotaged ourselves on the ice and the element of honest competition. Moulson had the points, but anyone who watched us regularly in 16-17 saw that the degradation of his hands and his feet left him behind the play in every zone, incapable of either getting himself or the puck to key spots on the ice or even other teammates. The best play was usually a toss up dump around the boards, and anything else resulted in a straight turnover. It was impossible to play cohesive team hockey on the ice, and the dragging-anchor description was perfect for him for a full season, but our staff never watched that and let it hurt them for almost a quarter of the season. Our own zone was a disaster with him out there because he could not effectively get to his man in time, giving the other team all kinds of seams and space. 

It is literally the exact same thing w.r.t. Pominville, with the caveat that he was always smarter on the ice than Matt, and the level of play isn't quite as bad. But he is not one of the 14 best forwards in this organization, and I would argue this more passionately than I would any other topic about this team one could come up with. For all the same reasons as Moulson. 

it's too late for me to properly phrase things, so here are quotes I made right after the season that sum up my reasoning (and Kyle gets shredded too, but just pretend I'm only talking about Pominville):

I think ultimately my disconnect with a lot of people stems from my problems with this team since we finished the tank. 

The results show that Pominville, Moulson last year, Kyle, these guys produced. In the end, production is all that really matters. Goals win games, right? 

I spent all game trashing Kyle against Ottawa and he pulls off an astounding single-handed effort and rips one top corner. But I still didn't feel dumb or any different. This team has been built, and its line-matching strategies have attempted to optimize, this type of production. It's why Jason gets put out with Jack half the season. It's why Moulson played in the top 6 for 1.5 seasons too long, and then still got power play time. In the end, Kyle is scoring, Jason is scoring, Matt is scoring, so the problem lies elsewhere, they say. 

But there's absolutely nothing sustainable about the play Kyle made. There's nothing sustainable about relying on armpit squeakers and Matty Mo somehow getting open in front of the net. You can't base your hockey team on this. You can't, in a larger sense, expect a 25% power play and pin your hopes of winning on playing low-event until your power play gets a chance. Both coaches have done this and both coaches have built lines on this expectation that the points are going to come and that's what matters.

But that drives ME nuts, because again, every 3 games Jason or Kyle gets a goal (not really, it's more like 3 in 4 and then you go 16 without, but I digress) and the rest of the time we watch these two fumble away any attempt at maintaining offensive control in a league where the lack of an ability to do so has you getting clowned by teams that have mastered this and geared every facet of their organization, from drafting to minors to line combinations to line usage, towards making it happen. Mike Babcock's sole goal is to funnel the slot with as many pucks as possible, and go out of his way to acquire/teach guys to not only handle pucks there but to score from there. We've been perfectly fine as an organization with assuming Jack's good for a dazzling rush per game, and ROR can shrug off Doughty to walk in front and roof a backhand every game, both facing the brunt of opposing competition, and then paying little mind to the guys behind them and how they play, assuming they'll be able to produce against what's left, and not making any changes when they can't, riding out the season with Griffiths and Moulsons and Pominvilles and Larssons back there. 

This is so backwards from every team that sees success in today's NHL. And the reason I don't mind Wilson as much, even though in a top six role he has less production than Pominville, is because he actively contributes to sustainable hockey for our highest-chemistry duo. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Eichel, Reinhart, ROR, Kane, Okposo, Rodrigues, Girgensons, Baptiste, Mittelstadt, Nylander, Wilson were all clearly better at the ins and outs of hockey, the stuff that happens between goals, the stuff that makes up 95% of the game, than Jason. If any one of these guys got Jason's time with Jack they'd produce too, and more importantly, they'd make a more cohesive unit with Jack and do a far, far better job of maximizing Jack's talent and limiting how much his line gets hindered. Kane is gone, but Pominville isonly getting older, and it should be EASY to make sure he isn't in the 12 man lineup. It needs to happen. 

It's only been 16 hours since the season ended, we cannot already be slipping into "well, it's okay to have Pominville in a prominent role, I mean he had 34 points". The season is too soon. He's useless, and giving meaningful ice time to players who are useless despite Jack's abilities is WHY we're here where we are right now. It's the kind of thing we need to break the cycle on this offseason, and not perpetuate. 

We did the same thing with Moulson last year, who had 34 points and was a zombie the entire year, and he gave us 0 points in 14 games, helping us to one of the worst starts in franchise history. 

Break the cycle Botterill. We are not tanking. replacement level players with NHL floors are not hard to come by. It is not acceptable to start this season with a healthy roster containing Pominville anywhere.

-----------------------------------------------------
Wilson vs. Pominville as depth
You need to watch Pominville try to play hockey with Jack, and then watch how good ROR-Reinhart-Wilson is. Wilson is a legitimate cog with hockey smarts and skating to set up plays, open space, and most importantly, effectively cycle the puck to ROR and Reinhart and let them do their thing. 

Pominville spends his time being unable to catch up to pucks that Jack puts into open areas, and desperately trying to get back into the play after yet another offensive failure.

Find examples of each of the two on the wing in their own zone, the team ready to transition out. Wilson gets the puck to the support. Pominville loses it to the other team, every, single, time. 

I'm just going to stop talking now because I feel like I just finished watching a different season from everyone

 

This sounds needlessly harsh, but it was written with the hockey fresh in my mind, one day after the last game of the year. Of being able to see firsthand why our team was a bad hockey team. That Pommers was in a spot that was helping his stats but light-years from maximizing Jack, the team's record, or the team's passing structure, not only doesn't mean that he's fine there and a good hockey player, but is actually a major reason why we were such a bad team. 

Pominville could come into camp reinvigorated and rightfully earn a spot on the team, but to be genuine it would be a role player on a depth line sheltered with kids, and until we see that happen he's not a top 12 forward in the org. We're losing 47+ games again if he's used even remotely similar to how he was last year. I'm fine with him as a 13/14th forward but we shouldn't let waivers being scary stop us from icing Tage and Rasmus and Alex if they are the best hockey players for those spots, like we did last season keeping Griffiths and Moulson over Baptiste and stuff like that, only now we have enough bodies that those decisions will be even more ridiculous. 

Edited September 16, 2018 by Randall Flagg

[dudacek]

I vaguely remember this post, but I dont get the context of “watching a different season than everyone.”

Were a lot of people touting Pominville’s season as good? All the projections I’ve seen for this year have him anywhere from 3rd line to press box.