Trade: Ryan O'Reilly to St Louis Blues

[WildCard]

Weak logic? It’s a ###### open market where ROR went to the HIGHEST bidder. STL didn’t give us a top prospect because STL didn’t value ROR enough to give us a top prospect. NO ONE DID.

 

The market spoke today. I’m sorry it didn’t tell you what you wanted to hear.

Which makes me wonder why we didn't just keep him

[Randall Flagg]

Are you talking about the year they bottomed out with a rookie GM and rookie coach

I'm talking about how they had 112 points, traded ROR an offseason later, and then were the worst non-expansion team in NHL history three years after that, steadily sliding downhill all the while. 

 

And yes, I know ROR is only a small piece of that, but I don't think Colorado is good now because they finally got that prima donna off their team, if you get what I'm saying.

[shrader]

I don't think "But the Oilers..." is a compelling argument. As SDS said, everyone in the league knew ROR was on his way out and apparently no one was willing to part with their top prospects for him. It's worth thinking about.

I’d love to know exactly how this whole thing played out. For a few days now we’ve all known that O’Reilly was headed to St Louis. I can’t think of too many cases like that. How exactly does all of this leak out and how does the package morph from what it was on Friday? Just once I’d love to know who is actually leaking this stuff out.

[TrueBlueGED]

I don't think "But the Oilers..." is a compelling argument.  As SDS said, everyone in the league knew ROR was on his way out and apparently no one was willing to part with their top prospects for him.  It's worth thinking about.

 

"If Subban was so good why did Montreal want to trade him..."

 

"If Seguin was so good....." (yea yea Chiarelli)

 

"If Richards and Carter were so good..."    "Richards and Carter had to go for 'the room'...."

 

Good players getting traded for less than they're worth on the ice, in the moment, due to various circumstances happens all the time. O'Reilly's contract isn't unfair for what he brings on the ice, but at the same time, not a ton of teams can just afford to add $7.5 million to the cap. Additionally, it being bonus-laden would deter some ownership groups. We had to work with a team A) looking to win now, B) with the cap space, C) with ownership willing to pay the bonuses, and D) in need of a 2nd line center. There's not a ton of overlap with those four things.

[shrader]

I'm talking about how they had 112 points, traded ROR an offseason later, and then were the worst non-expansion team in NHL history three years after that, steadily sliding downhill all the while.

 

And yes, I know ROR is only a small piece of that, but I don't think Colorado is good now because they finally got that prima donna off their team, if you get what I'm saying.

Based off of their recent track record, I wouldn’t be surprised to see them fall off the cliff again. That team has been a crazy roller coaster ride, never doing what they’re expected to. Edited July 2, 2018 by shrader

[7+6=13]

Kane and ROR are very good proven NHL producers but they're not leaders that young good players can learn from.  On teams where they won't be expected to be leaders and just produce - they'll do fine in that role.  We needed them to lead and play well and they failed to lead - they likely had negative effects.  Obviously we knew Kane wasn't a leader but I think most of us expected ROR to be one.  Lehner, IMO, was a head case and I'm glad he's gone.  

 

Maybe JBot knows Sheary and these new vets can bring a different attitude while this team builds it's lineup through it's very young prospects.  We're going to be very good folks - it's just going to take time.  While we wait it's important the young guys develop leadership skills while playing with vets that know how to play the right way.  

 

Fresh team, new attitude, a ton of viable prospects, 3 -1st round picks and I'm happy where we're headed.  

 

I hated our team the last two years - I hated it.  I didn't want to build upon it - I wanted a totally different roster and we're getting it.  

[Doohickie]

So if you trade out Parayko for Thompson In this deal is their a more favorable reaction for Sabres fans?

 

Hell yes.

[TrueBlueGED]

Weak logic? It’s a ###### open market where ROR went to the HIGHEST bidder. STL didn’t give us a top prospect because STL didn’t value ROR enough to give us a top prospect. NO ONE DID.

 

The market spoke today. I’m sorry it didn’t tell you what you wanted to hear.

 

But again, this is half of my point. His market value to other teams is (or was, as the case may be) lower than his on-ice value to the Sabres. It's fair market value, but not equal on-ice value, in my estimation. Obviously Botterill disagrees with that assessment. We'll see how it plays out. But just because the market "spoke" doesn't mean it was a smart move to pull the trigger on. The market speaks all the time and is wrong as often as it's right in sports.

[Iron Crotch]

Weak logic? It’s a ###### open market where ROR went to the HIGHEST bidder. STL didn’t give us a top prospect because STL didn’t value ROR enough to give us a top prospect. NO ONE DID.

 

The market spoke today. I’m sorry it didn’t tell you what you wanted to hear.

 

I think we were under the gun to get a deal done prior to midnight. Had the $7.5 million bonus not been there, we could have shopped for better deals with teams that missed on in free agency (e.g., the Isles).

[Randall Flagg]

Based off of their recent track record, I wouldn’t be surprised to see them fall off the cliff again. That team has been a crazy roller coaster ride, never doing what they’re expected to.

If you subscribe to the vague encompassing title of "underlying stats" you'd be right to be not surprised. 

Hell yes.

I'd be dancing in the streets and escorting ROR to the airport myself.

[Doohickie]

If O'Reilly sulked in the locker room and that actually helped crater the team on the ice...do we really think the remaining pieces have the mental toughness to fight through adversity? I don't really believe in this stuff impacting performance on the ice, but even if I did, this still wouldn't make me feel better. A moody teammate in the locker room sinks the team despite playing great on the ice? Talk about some mental weakness...

 

Maybe.  He was a leader.  He had one of the A's.  He was designated by management as one of the guys to follow.  He's gone.  Now we have Dahlin.  Look at Dahlin's work ethic, his attitude.  It would surprise me at all if he comes out of camp with an A.  Vectoring the team away from ROR and toward Dahlin may be exactly what this team needs.

[Randall Flagg]

I honestly thought Berglund was the perfect piece to lower Parayko's value enough for St. Louis to do it.

[TrueBlueGED]

Maybe.  He was a leader.  He had one of the A's.  He was designated by management as one of the guys to follow.  He's gone.  Now we have Dahlin.  Look at Dahlin's work ethic, his attitude.  It would surprise me at all if he comes out of camp with an A.  Vectoring the team away from ROR and toward Dahlin may be exactly what this team needs.

 

The others who had the A are still here, though. If one guy was that big of an influence, does it really speak well to the others who wore the letters? Put differently, is somebody who has to be told "it's your turn" to lead much of a leader? Don't true leaders grab the bull by the horns?

[Randall Flagg]

Since it was so bothersome, I'm going to apologize for my emotional explosion here. 

My real problem is that I see a bad trade as a culmination of bad asset management dating back to Botterill's first decisions here, and it makes me equally pessimistic about the future in a league with high parity and high turnover. In today's NHL, you have to practically try to be this bad for this long and in my eyes we've shown no ability to line-build, line-match, or roster-build on the level of even average NHL teams that we blew things up to stop being.

[Darryl Shannon's +/-]

The others who had the A are still here, though. If one guy was that big of an influence, does it really speak well to the others who wore the letters? Put differently, is somebody who has to be told "it's your turn" to lead much of a leader? Don't true leaders grab the bull by the horns?

Contract and term matter. Moving a guy like 90 should help let others know more is expected.

[Sabel79]

But again, this is half of my point. His market value to other teams is (or was, as the case may be) lower than his on-ice value to the Sabres. It's fair market value, but not equal on-ice value, in my estimation. Obviously Botterill disagrees with that assessment. We'll see how it plays out. But just because the market "spoke" doesn't mean it was a smart move to pull the trigger on. The market speaks all the time and is wrong as often as it's right in sports.

If, because of whatever reason, his continued presence in the room is a negative, well... it’s been pretty clearly demonstrated that with him the team is . Maybe shaking things up and putting a cohesive room together (if indeed that’s the issue) with actual NHL players in pretty much every position isn’t a bad way to go.

 

Of course, it could be an abject disaster, based upon the return. But judging it now, especially as we don’t know what other moves might be made, seems hasty.

[stenbaro]

My opinion of this deal is that JBOT is giving Eichel the leadership of this team, he will live or die with this move. I would venture to say Eichel was the problem moreso than Oreilly. Time will tell..

[Doohickie]

Am I the only one who believes this happened largely because ROR wanted it to?

 

I think he did.  He may not have started out that way, but he was marketed so much I think he just wanted out.

[TrueBlueGED]

Contract and term matter. Moving a guy like 90 should help let others know more is expected.

 

Jack Eichel signed an 8-year, $80 million contract. He's ostensibly going to get the C. If he had to be told to be a leader, we're probably in bad shape on that front.

[Tondas]

I'm intrigued by Thompson.  He's only 20 and is 6' 5" 190.  He needs to add size to his frame and probably will.  The reports I have read say he skates well and has a great shot.  He's played 41 NHL games.  If Nylander needs more time and to be patient, why not this kid?? Seems like a more skilled Adam Creighton. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

I'm talking about how they had 112 points, traded ROR an offseason later, and then were the worst non-expansion team in NHL history three years after that, steadily sliding downhill all the while. 

And yes, I know ROR is only a small piece of that, but I don't think Colorado is good now because they finally got that prima donna off their team, if you get what I'm saying.

Yes, but ROR was part of a blossoming core with Duchene, McKinnon, Stastny, Landeskog and engineered his exist from what should have been an exciting team for years to come.

 

ROR wants to be the man, but simply isn’t good enough and sulks because of it. I hope he’s happy in Stl. Last I looked they already the man and he is names Tarasenko. My guess is he sulks there to.

 

Frankly the Sabres now have a core of 5 players who will likely be better players then ROR long term in Jack, Dahlin, Casey, and possibly Risto and even Samson. See Yeah.

[7+6=13]

For the first time in several years I feel like we're moving in a positive direction.  I'm glad Lehner, Kane and ROR are no longer voices being heard in our locker room.  We're loaded with prospects and brought in some NHL players to help the young stars take over.  They're from successful organizations and I think they'll help.  

[Doohickie]

This can't be true, can it?

 

It was implied by a tweet from St. Louis earlier in the thread.  Without context it's hard to know what that means.  If they didn't offer any of their top prospects, JBot may have requested Thompson out of what was available.

[shrader]

Since it was so bothersome, I'm going to apologize for my emotional explosion here.

 

My real problem is that I see a bad trade as a culmination of bad asset management dating back to Botterill's first decisions here, and it makes me equally pessimistic about the future in a league with high parity and high turnover. In today's NHL, you have to practically try to be this bad for this long and in my eyes we've shown no ability to line-build, line-match, or roster-build on the level of even average NHL teams that we blew things up to stop being.

So little of what you’re describing is Botterill though. He’s been on the job one year now. Are you counting anything beyond Kane-O’Reilly to that bad asset management? Yeah, I realize those are two big fish right there if you are in fact right, but I’m trying to get a feel for anything else you might be talking about.

 

What’s becoming very obvious is that this team is coming dangerously close to bills territory where the actions of each GM can easily wind up being lumped together into one giant ball of crap... the new guy automatically gets lumped in with his predecessors

[TrueBlueGED]

Yes, but ROR was part of a blossoming core with Duchene, McKinnon, Stastny, Landeskog and engineered his exist from what should have been an exciting team for years to come.

 

ROR wants to be the man, but simply isn’t good enough and sulks because of it. I hope he’s happy in Stl. Last I looked they already the man and he is names Tarasenko. My guess is he sulks there to.

 

Frankly the Sabres now have a core of 5 players who will likely be better players then ROR long term in Jack, Dahlin, Casey, and possibly Risto and even Samson. See Yeah.

 

Engineered his exit? He used the means available to him (offer sheet) to squeeze Colorado to pay him his value. It's not his fault Colorado was cheap and didn't want to pay him more than Duchene.