Randall Flagg Posted July 2, 2018 Report Share Posted July 2, 2018 When Pegula took over, the team was perpetually on the playoffs bubble. Perpetually drafting in the middle of round 1, with no star players to build around. His directive was to build a team that contends year in and year out FOR THE CUP.. and he said "if you want to watch the Sydney Crosby's you have to get the Sydney Crosby's." Enter Tim Murray and the tank wars. Draft Eichel and Reinhart, trade for O'Reilly... this team was set down the middle for the next decade, which is something ALL Championship teams have in common. Fast forward to today.... JBOTs trades away one of the best 2way centers in the game for bag of turds. This was a last place team WITH O'Reilly, it will be a last place team without him. O'Reilly wasn't holding this team back. Larsson, Girgensons, Pouliot, Josefson, Bogo, etc... those are the guys that need to be replaced NOT the second best player on your roster. Those bottom sixers could've been replaced last season, if not last summer, then at the deadline for a late round pick or whatever... thats how you change the culture. Move out the guys that have been poisoned by the tank and let them start fresh elsewhere. I feel sick about this O'Reilly trade. This puts BUF back to where they were before the tank.... with the likes of Larsson, Girgensons, Bogosian still poisoning the bench, etc. I...I...I could kiss you, pi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derrico Posted July 2, 2018 Report Share Posted July 2, 2018 I should point out that I don't like the trade and flagg and true blue make excellent points but the media seems to think it was a huge haul the Sabres received. Some seem to think botts got the overpayment he was looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted July 2, 2018 Report Share Posted July 2, 2018 (edited) I should point out that I don't like the trade and flagg and true blue make excellent points but the media seems to think it was a huge haul the Sabres received. Some seem to think botts got the overpayment he was looking for. Convention is that Berglund and Sobotka are good players, which explains that. I need to be convinced that they aren't good players in the sense that Okposo is a good player, rather than in the sense that ROR is a good player. They are cap dumps, is the problem. Edited July 2, 2018 by Randall Flagg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thesportsbuff Posted July 2, 2018 Report Share Posted July 2, 2018 This puts BUF back to where they were before the tank. this is basically all that matters to me when thinking about this trade. i personally feel we got fleeced -- i'm sure i am heavily biased and equally uninformed on the prospect/players we are getting. but it is more about my unwillingness to start over. we have wasted the last 10 years of our fanhood being bad, and the last 5 years being the epitome of bad. i'm really not ready to buy into "another rebuild" -- especially after listening to JBotts talk about age being a factor in the trade. if 27 is too old for this group, then my god -- it will be 5 years before this team sniffs a playoff birth. it is soul crushing, to be honest. i've lost my passion for the game as well over the last 5 years. i am ryan o'reilly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derrico Posted July 2, 2018 Report Share Posted July 2, 2018 Convention is that Berglund and Sobotka are good players, which explains that. I need to be convinced that they aren't good players in the sense that Okposo is a good player, rather than in the sense that ROR is a good player. This is fair. But they seem to be in more of the okposo classification than the pomiville type. Okposo has his issues but it's the cap hit that is the killer. Neither of those two has a hit nearly as bad as okposo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted July 2, 2018 Report Share Posted July 2, 2018 This is fair. But they seem to be in more of the okposo classification than the pomiville type. Okposo has his issues but it's the cap hit that is the killer. Neither of those two has a hit nearly as bad as okposo. But in terms of on-ice value, two Okposos do not get you an O'Reilly, they exacerbate the problem, and Sobotka probably isn't an Okposo at this point Sigh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pi2000 Posted July 2, 2018 Report Share Posted July 2, 2018 Convention is that Berglund and Sobotka are good players, which explains that. I need to be convinced that they aren't good players in the sense that Okposo is a good player, rather than in the sense that ROR is a good player. They are cap dumps, is the problem. Berglund and Sobotka are better than any bottom sixers on the team last season. But the point is that you don't need to trade your second best player to upgrade 2 of the bottom sixers.. especially on this plug squad. Upgrading the bottom sixers should've been done through a combination of free agency, and promotions from Roch... maybe a small trade or two, but not your second best player. O'Reilly is going to thrive next season in STL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted July 2, 2018 Report Share Posted July 2, 2018 Berglund and Sobotka are better than any bottom sixers on the team last season. But the point is that you don't need to trade your second best player to upgrade 2 of the bottom sixers.. especially on this plug squad. Upgrading the bottom sixers should've been done through a combination of free agency, and promotions from Roch... maybe a small trade or two, but not your second best player. O'Reilly is going to thrive next season in STL. Don't look now at how MTL got Armia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pi2000 Posted July 2, 2018 Report Share Posted July 2, 2018 (edited) this is basically all that matters to me when thinking about this trade. i personally feel we got fleeced -- i'm sure i am heavily biased and equally uninformed on the prospect/players we are getting. but it is more about my unwillingness to start over. we have wasted the last 10 years of our fanhood being bad, and the last 5 years being the epitome of bad. i'm really not ready to buy into "another rebuild" -- especially after listening to JBotts talk about age being a factor in the trade. if 27 is too old for this group, then my god -- it will be 5 years before this team sniffs a playoff birth. it is soul crushing, to be honest. i've lost my passion for the game as well over the last 5 years. i am ryan o'reilly. Some questions I have for JBOT... who's going to take key face-offs? Who's going to kill penalities? Who's going to sport the best beard in the game? Nobody else can grow facial hair, and frankly that's a big concern. OReilly ranked 1st in the league in face-offs (beard strength).. the next best Sabre? Jack Eichel...98th. Yeah, it's going to be another looooong season. Don't look now at how MTL got Armiasickening Edited July 2, 2018 by pi2000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IKnowPhysics Posted July 2, 2018 Report Share Posted July 2, 2018 We did exactly what we should not have done. We took a piece part package in exchange for O'Reilly. We needed quality assets that will help this team now, and that didn't happen. This is the kind of move a team does, the kind of move this team did, in order to sell all assets and tank. This team is continuing to tank. We will lose for Hughes, and we will likely lose the lottery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted July 2, 2018 Report Share Posted July 2, 2018 (edited) The twitter dudes are saying themselves that St. Louis has been looking to dump those contracts for a while. There is a very realistic chance we could have called them independent of ROR and gotten those two players for a 3rd. Edited July 2, 2018 by Randall Flagg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erickompositör72 Posted July 2, 2018 Report Share Posted July 2, 2018 The Sabres have the talent on paper to pick up the slack for O'Reilly's production The shoring up of the bottom 6 with proven, experienced players (not Roch call-ups) may pick up the slack of ROR's contribution to defensive play. Add to that goaltending competency, and it doesn't look so bad And he needed to go, which is why he's gone. If he didn't need to go, he'd be here. I believe that. Everybody needs to chill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IKnowPhysics Posted July 2, 2018 Report Share Posted July 2, 2018 Everybody needs to chill. Tell that to season ticket holders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erickompositör72 Posted July 2, 2018 Report Share Posted July 2, 2018 Tell that to season ticket holders. Ok. Dear season ticket holders: You need to chill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted July 2, 2018 Report Share Posted July 2, 2018 Also, I forget who asked if Botterill pushed for Thompson, but it was according to Doug Armstrong that he did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pi2000 Posted July 2, 2018 Report Share Posted July 2, 2018 The Sabres have the talent on paper to pick up the slack for O'Reilly's production. And he needed to go, which is why he's gone. If he didn't need to go, he'd be here. I believe that. Everybody needs to chill. Who's going to win a faceoffs or kill penalties or play power play or key moments in games? That's not something you can make up for collectively. He did it all, he was a rare breed and now he's gone. Why exactly did he need to go? First Eichel runs Bylsma out of town, now O'Reilly. Who's next? Dahlin? Mittlestadt? Housley? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted July 2, 2018 Report Share Posted July 2, 2018 Improving team speed with two slower forwards than ROR and a prospect noted for being slow... Fitting the age better with two old cap dumps to go with a prospect that no Blues fan had in their top 4... Dumping a big contract by adding an identical cap hit for the next two seasons... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erickompositör72 Posted July 2, 2018 Report Share Posted July 2, 2018 Who's going to win a faceoffs or kill penalties or play power play or key moments in games? That's not something you can make up for collectively. He did it all, he was a rare breed and now he's gone. We will find a way. TBH, I think relying on one guy to do all-of-the-above is a problematic situation in itself. I do believe we can make up for it, collectively Why exactly did he need to go? First Eichel runs Bylsma out of town, now O'Reilly. Who's next? Dahlin? Mittlestadt? Housley? I've chosen to accept the premise that the reason he was traded for a less-than-ideal return boils down to the fact that he needed to go. Are you willing to accept that certain players are poisonous in the locker room, but not willing to accept that O'Reilly could be one? Improving team speed with two slower forwards than ROR and a prospect noted for being slow... Fitting the age better with two old cap dumps to go with a prospect that no Blues fan had in their top 4... Dumping a big contract by adding an identical cap hit for the next two seasons... I understand your frustration, but you seem to be engaging in an exercise of reiteration Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrassValleyGreg Posted July 2, 2018 Report Share Posted July 2, 2018 We had the league's worst bottom 6 (subjective), so yes, Berglund will make it better if strictly used as a 3W or in an ideal world a 4C (you know Phil will staple him to Eichel regardless of how much of a drag it is (speculation), he did the same thing with Jason for the odd goal every 4 games). Sobotka could but he's apparently fallen off the age cliff (speculation) so I'm not counting on it. Tage gives you Zemgus-offense (see his thread) (very subjective) and whatever defense you'd expect from a hockey prospect (subjective), and we traded someone whose whole package can be argued to be our best player to get this upgrade (subjective), when just beating Montreal's offer for Armia gets you a better bottom 6 upgrade than the combined (subjective), because he's actively good and actively drives play, and not just a warm body past their prime (subjective), with less as far as contract troubles go (4 years! 4!!) This avenue is objectively suspect. I'm not saying it won't work out but giving a blind pass due to the authority Botts has wrt me (and I'm not saying that's what you're doing) stopped working for me after watching Ron Rolston roll through this organization. Mostly a reader here, and I always appreciate your in-depth analysis and discussion Flagg, but in an effort to promote optimism, I just want to point out that your strong disapproval of this trade is grounded almost entirely in opinion. My sense is you're being overcritical of Berglund/Sobotka (clear bottom 6 improvements) and undervaluing Tage as a prospect, who I'd now put number 3 in our pipeline behind Rasmus and Casey (ahead of Guhle and Alex). From what I've seen (admittedly limited but nearly all his international play), he's a big, smart power forward with a super quick and hard release - something we sorely lack in our paltry pipeline. He can possess the puck, is good around the net, and can drive play. The comparison to Zemgus is an odd one. Also, I do like the idea of a nucleus of young American forwards who can grow together at a time when US youth hockey is at its best. Add another first and a second, and we can start to reconstruct an organization bereft of talent. It should have happened 5 years ago, but it didn't, and thats not on Bots watch. I'm positive on: the amount of draft capital we've accumulated watching another skilled American forward grow in the NHL next year an improved bottom 6, including a big smart Swede who can cycle and finish an overhaul of the locker room dynamic, with the reigns now handed over to our franchise player Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SabresBillsFan Posted July 2, 2018 Report Share Posted July 2, 2018 Wow not impressed with this move. It must have been real bad in Sabre land that either O’Reilly wanted out or Buffalo didn’t want him back. The players they got back are Meh? The picks are okay but geez when do you finally stop this rebuild? When Pegula took over, the team was perpetually on the playoffs bubble. Perpetually drafting in the middle of round 1, with no star players to build around. His directive was to build a team that contends year in and year out FOR THE CUP.. and he said "if you want to watch the Sydney Crosby's you have to get the Sydney Crosby's." Enter Tim Murray and the tank wars. Draft Eichel and Reinhart, trade for O'Reilly... this team was set down the middle for the next decade, which is something ALL Championship teams have in common. Fast forward to today.... JBOTs trades away one of the best 2way centers in the game for bag of turds. This was a last place team WITH O'Reilly, it will be a last place team without him. O'Reilly wasn't holding this team back. Larsson, Girgensons, Pouliot, Josefson, Bogo, etc... those are the guys that need to be replaced NOT the second best player on your roster. Those bottom sixers could've been replaced last season, if not last summer, then at the deadline for a late round pick or whatever... thats how you change the culture. Move out the guys that have been poisoned by the tank and let them start fresh elsewhere. I feel sick about this O'Reilly trade. This puts BUF back to where they were before the tank.... with the likes of Larsson, Girgensons, Bogosian still poisoning the bench, etc. Typical Buffalo move. I hope that this deal works out but on paper this doesn’t look good for Buffalo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted July 2, 2018 Report Share Posted July 2, 2018 Just curious, how many here have officially given up on this team, and how many die-hards are still waiting around for that small glimmer of hope? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted July 2, 2018 Report Share Posted July 2, 2018 Excitable bunch, aintchya? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted July 2, 2018 Report Share Posted July 2, 2018 (edited) Who's going to win a faceoffs or kill penalties or play power play or key moments in games? That's not something you can make up for collectively. He did it all, he was a rare breed and now he's gone. Why exactly did he need to go? First Eichel runs Bylsma out of town, now O'Reilly. Who's next? Dahlin? Mittlestadt? Housley? It's Buffalo. Real winners want out before they turn into losers. In 3 years, Eichel's contract will seem like a bargain and he'll want out too. Edited July 2, 2018 by JJFIVEOH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted July 2, 2018 Report Share Posted July 2, 2018 (edited) Just curious, how many here have officially given up on this team, and how many die-hards are still waiting around for that small glimmer of hope?It’s always been about Eichel, Reinhart, Ristolainen, Dahlin, Nylander and Mittlestadt.I think we’ve hit on five of the six. I am no less hopeful today than I was yesterday. We were the worst team in hockey last year.did you expect status quo, or teams to trade us better players for the ones who led us to last place? Edited July 2, 2018 by dudacek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted July 2, 2018 Report Share Posted July 2, 2018 (edited) It’s always been about Eichel, Reinhart, Ristolainen, Dahlin, Nylander and Mittlestadt. I think we’ve hit on five of the six. I am no less hopeful today than I was yesterday. We were the worst team in hockey last year. I'm with you too. After all these years of incompetence, I have no hope left. And it appears to be 3-4 more years of incompetence. While some GM's can turn around and make a team successful in a year or two, this team will be riding a decade long string of failure. Just not into waiting it out any longer. This is one of the worst trades in the history of the team. Edited July 2, 2018 by JJFIVEOH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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