"The Sabres are going to be VERY good"

[SwampD]

Repeated ad nauseum....

 

It is NOT foot speed, it is pace of play. ROR and Sam and O’Poso are very good in this league when a fast pace is maintained. They don’t need to be fast, they need to be constantly in motion and making quick decisions.

This.

 

And the whole "the best teams are also the fastest" isn't even true. Sure, they are fast, but there are plenty of fast teams that are bad, as well.

[SabresFanInRochester]

I don't think the team speed is over exaggerated at all. In HC Phil Housley's system which Jason Botteril and Phil Housley explained in the press conferences upon hiring, his system calls for the defense to quickly move the pucks up the ice where we use team speed to enter the zone. Other than Eichel who is not a speed demon but does posses the necessary wheels but who else fits that description on our roster from our forward group? Reinhart, Okposso, O'Reilly? None of them do and that's why this team is struggling mightily, you hired a coach preaching team speed yet we dont have it. We can live with O'Reilly being not so fast but then that leaves us with Reinhart and Okposso, we need to trade these 2 to the highest bidder and it's not that they aren't talented it's just that they don't fit what were trying top do here imo. 

 

The hope now is that Alexandre Nylander isn't a bust because he fits the mold, he's not only fast but he's skilled as well, same goes for Casey Middlestadt, not a trail blazer like Nylander but very quick up the ice.D Brendan Guhle should also help the team speed on the defensive side. So alot of hope surrounds 2 players who've spent limited time in the NHL and 1 player who has yet the touch the NHL ice but hope none the less.

I have to call you on this -- "Eichel who is not a speed demon" -- Just wrong.

[GASabresIUFAN]

I have to call you on this -- "Eichel who is not a speed demon" -- Just wrong.

Wasn’t Eichel the 2nd faster skater at the All-star game behind McJesus?

 

 

One other thought on speed; how much speed do you really need if you are able to maintain puck possession and cycle in the offensive zone?

Edited March 2, 2018 by GASabresIUFAN

[Doohickie]

One other thought on speed; how much speed do you really need if you are able to maintain puck possession and cycle in the offensive zone?

 

On the 90s Red Wings (I hate to go back to them all the time but it's the only other team I ever followed closely besides the Sabres), a decrepit Slava Fetisov was one of the Russian Five.  Their passing more than made up for his lack of wheels.

I bring that up also because HCPH is always talking about activating the D in the O zone.  The Russian Five did that frequently, so probably not a bad model of what the Sabres want to get to.

[Scottysabres]

Soooooo........is the 5ram going to be good, or isn't it?

[SwampD]

Soooooo........is the 5ram going to be good, or isn't it?

Yes. They will be VERY good.

 

 

But like the thread itself, I will give no time frame.

[3putt]

Patrick Kane is deadly quick, but not not straight line fast - kinda like Casey Middelstadt.

Jonathan Toews is no speed demon but he more than compensates with brains and tenacity like Ryan O’Reilly.

Was an aging Marian Hossa quick, or just very powerful, kinda like Kyle Okposo?

Do you really think Seabrook was a way better skater than Risto?

Who was the Hawks Eichel?

 

Before you jump all over me, I’m not saying we have the Hawks core and we do need to get faster as a team.

But good NHL hockey players are good NHL hockey players.

Damn,  just read the last paragraph and was ready to pounce!  ;)  I will point out that there is a difference between skating speed and playing speed.  Kaner, largely due to lateral agility and other worldly hands, plays at a speed few can match.  Ditto for Toews and surprisingly Hossa.  Keith is the guy you left off the list that added speed from the blue line.  Sharp was a very fast player and so were guys like Bickell and Burrish though complementary pieces.  I think we will have enough players to add playing speed to the lineup like Baptiste, Nylander Casey etc.  Where the Hawks were good at finding were fast complementary pieces that were also physical.  Not LA Kings physical, but who would finish checks relentlessly causing turnovers to ignite the transition.  That I see as a hole in our roster and pipeline.  It also needs emphasis from the top down. 

[LTS]

Since Jan 1....

 

The Sabres are 23rd in points in the league with 23 points.  The 16th best team in the league in points is Florida with 27.  Would you feel better if overall this team was only 4 points out of a playoff spot right now?

 

The Sabres are 18th in GF.

The Sabres are 24th in GA.

 

From beginning of the season to Dec. 31

 

The Sabres were 30th in points and the 16th best team in the league was Minnesota with 43 points.  

 

The Sabres were 31st in GF.

The Sabres were 29th in GA.

 

There has been improvement on this team whether you want to admit to it or not.  The team still needs more goal scoring, needs better defense and goaltending.  We're allowed be happy that Antipin and Nelson look solid.  Guhle looked good.  Ullmark looked good.

 

If they can get a bit more scoring out of the forward base then there's no reason to believe they will be miserable next season.

 

Hell Chad Johnson has improved his game significantly since the start of the season as well.  So, keep him in the mix.

[Weave]

The questions of success in garbage time and being taken lightly by the best teams are still in play.  Yes, they've looked better recently.  Is it because they ARE better, or is it because the teams they face assume they are a joke?

[GASabresIUFAN]

Since Jan 1....

 

The Sabres are 23rd in points in the league with 23 points.  The 16th best team in the league in points is Florida with 27.  Would you feel better if overall this team was only 4 points out of a playoff spot right now?

 

The Sabres are 18th in GF.

The Sabres are 24th in GA.

 

From beginning of the season to Dec. 31

 

The Sabres were 30th in points and the 16th best team in the league was Minnesota with 43 points.  

 

The Sabres were 31st in GF.

The Sabres were 29th in GA.

 

There has been improvement on this team whether you want to admit to it or not.  The team still needs more goal scoring, needs better defense and goaltending.  We're allowed be happy that Antipin and Nelson look solid.  Guhle looked good.  Ullmark looked good.

 

If they can get a bit more scoring out of the forward base then there's no reason to believe they will be miserable next season.

 

Hell Chad Johnson has improved his game significantly since the start of the season as well.  So, keep him in the mix.

Improved, yes, but playoff caliber team no. I’d like to see how many times since 12/31 have they faced the opponents backup goalie.

 

This team earned 14pts in the first 20 games, 15pts in next 20 and 16pts in the following 20. While that’s improvement that not a huge step forward. By comparison, Fl started almost as bad we did with 16 pts in their first 20 games, and then have earned 23 and 25 over then next two 20 game periods. That is the type of improvement I had hoped to see from this group. The Sabres are 3-1-0 in their last 4 however.

[LTS]

The questions of success in garbage time and being taken lightly by the best teams are still in play.  Yes, they've looked better recently.  Is it because they ARE better, or is it because the teams they face assume they are a joke?

 

So the hypothesis is that every team is taking the Sabres too lightly and that's why they are winning?  How do we account for that from every team they are playing?  Do we also account for other teams who have performed significantly worse since Jan 1.  (a purely arbitrary date certainly).?  

 

If you are the Bruins or Lightning and recently were beaten by the Sabres and then had to play them again... are you still taking them as a joke?  I think it's possible to look past a game certainly, but if you were just recently beaten by a team you'd be foolish to continue looking past them.

 

Curious, when does garbage time begin?  I mean, out of the gate they were bad and teams would have not taken them seriously right?  So why did they suddenly improve?  Is there a time when the other teams finally believed they were awful and started playing worse against the Sabres? 

Improved, yes, but playoff caliber team no. I’d like to see how many times since 12/31 have they faced the opponents backup goalie.

 

This team earned 14pts in the first 20 games, 15pts in next 20 and 16pts in the following 20. While that’s improvement that not a huge step forward. By comparison, Fl started almost as bad we did with 16 pts in their first 20 games, and then have earned 23 and 25 over then next two 20 game periods. That is the type of improvement I had hoped to see from this group. The Sabres are 3-1-0 in their last 4 however.

 

Fair points on the points earned in 20 game blocks.  That's why I also added the scoring... they've been steadily climbing in both charts.  Not great, but it's improvement.. and that's with a team we know is incomplete.  If they're able to be as competitive as they've been with players out of the lineup, how much better will they be with those players back in the lineup and some other talent added?

 

There's the eye test as well.  They just look better.

[Weave]

So the hypothesis is that every team is taking the Sabres too lightly and that's why they are winning?  How do we account for that from every team they are playing?  Do we also account for other teams who have performed significantly worse since Jan 1.  (a purely arbitrary date certainly).?  

 

If you are the Bruins or Lightning and recently were beaten by the Sabres and then had to play them again... are you still taking them as a joke?  I think it's possible to look past a game certainly, but if you were just recently beaten by a team you'd be foolish to continue looking past them.

 

Curious, when does garbage time begin?  I mean, out of the gate they were bad and teams would have not taken them seriously right?  So why did they suddenly improve?  Is there a time when the other teams finally believed they were awful and started playing worse against the Sabres? 

 

No idea.  I'm not proposing it as fact.  But I'm not discounting the idea either.  It's not unlike those glorious runs to 9th place.

 

 

ETA- Boston and Tampa are a level of magnitude more deeply talented than Buffalo.  What other theories shall we propose for why they lost to us several times this season?  I'm hard pressed to believe that the makeup of our team is somehow accidentally a poor match up for those two.

Edited March 2, 2018 by We've

[WildCard]

Is this a joke? Seriously, this is totally ridiculous. This team is still a total mess void of true nhl talent.

Yeah this is insane

[PASabreFan]

Okposo isn't falling for it, and the door slam tells me Botterill isn't either. Housley at one point during this renaissance, after a disgusting loss (Dallas?), had to say something to the effect of, "We know what kind of individuals we have here." He wasn't being kind.

 

More tearing down to come. It's not a matter of tweaking.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Okposo isn't falling for it, and the door slam tells me Botterill isn't either. Housley at one point during this renaissance, after a disgusting loss (Dallas?), had to say something to the effect of, "We know what kind of individuals we have here." He wasn't being kind.

 

More tearing down to come. It's not a matter of tweaking.

No question. It’s unlikely Lehner, Johnson, Josefson, Nolan, Gorges, Falk, and Pouliot return. Kane and Moulson are gone. Girgensons, and Larsson could easily be on the chopping block. I’m sure Jbot would love to get rid of Bogo. The Sabre have 12 RFA’s plus Nelson with expiring contracts. I seriously doubt Jbot keeps all of them.

[SwampD]

No idea.  I'm not proposing it as fact.  But I'm not discounting the idea either.  It's not unlike those glorious runs to 9th place.

 

 

ETA- Boston and Tampa are a level of magnitude more deeply talented than Buffalo.  What other theories shall we propose for why they lost to us several times this season?  I'm hard pressed to believe that the makeup of our team is somehow accidentally a poor match up for those two.

Who knew that those seasons actually were, um, glorious compared to what we have witnessed since?

[Weave]

Who knew that those seasons actually were, um, glorious compared to what we have witnessed since?

 

Even then we were complaining about wins.  Nothing much has changed.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

I wish I felt differently but I just have no excitement at all for the Sabres. None. Nada.

 

Oh no, they have finally got to you.

 

My fear is that we have lost chz forever.

[Randall Flagg]

The questions of success in garbage time and being taken lightly by the best teams are still in play.  Yes, they've looked better recently.  Is it because they ARE better, or is it because the teams they face assume they are a joke?

It's a valid question, but I do wonder if well coached teams with good vets like the Bruins and Lightning would allow their team to look past us the first time, let alone AGAIN less than two weeks later. We beat them both twice in the last half of last month. 

 

Also, last year's team was also out of the playoffs and considered an easy win, only they were playing at a 55 point pace during this part of the season, and these guys aren't. 

 

So while there's probably truth to the fact that some other teams are playing down to us or looking past us, and starting their backups often, we still outplayed two great teams and beat the one even with Vasilevskiy. We still are outshooting teams more often than not, which is not something we did during that stretch more than once or twice in the equivalent portion of recent seasons. 

 

And the eye test shows that these guys just seem more comfortable/confident with the game they're playing and with where they expect each other to be and what they expect each other to do. 

 

So I wouldn't blame someone for raising hopes a bit, with the caution that they need to be like this starting early October next year for it to mean anything.

[spndnchz]

Oh no, they have finally got to you.

 

My fear is that we have lost chz forever.

10 years of season tickets, the first 2 out of three seeing the playoffs. Nothing since. I’m watching still. These last few games the fan base is definitely looking at. They may lose us or give us some spark of hope.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

10 years of season tickets, the first 2 out of three seeing the playoffs. Nothing since. I’m watching still. These last few games the fan base is definitely looking at. They may lose us or give us some spark of hope.

 

I hear you.  I think we are all pretty much at the same place as you are.

[Weave]

It's a valid question, but I do wonder if well coached teams with good vets like the Bruins and Lightning would allow their team to look past us the first time, let alone AGAIN less than two weeks later. We beat them both twice in the last half of last month.

 

Also, last year's team was also out of the playoffs and considered an easy win, only they were playing at a 55 point pace during this part of the season, and these guys aren't.

 

So while there's probably truth to the fact that some other teams are playing down to us or looking past us, and starting their backups often, we still outplayed two great teams and beat the one even with Vasilevskiy. We still are outshooting teams more often than not, which is not something we did during that stretch more than once or twice in the equivalent portion of recent seasons.

 

And the eye test shows that these guys just seem more comfortable/confident with the game they're playing and with where they expect each other to be and what they expect each other to do.

 

So I wouldn't blame someone for raising hopes a bit, with the caution that they need to be like this starting early October next year for it to mean anything.

We all know that Boston and Tampa are much better constructed. MUCH better. There is no question. So there isn’t much explanation for our wins other than they were playing down to us. They are both SCF favoritesin many eyes. Our game hasn’t improved that much. It can’t.

[Randall Flagg]

We all know that Boston and Tampa are much better constructed. MUCH better. There is no question. So there isn’t much explanation for our wins other than they were playing down to us. They are both SCF favoritesin many eyes. Our game hasn’t improved that much. It can’t.

Eh, that would be true for a sport like basketball, but the inherent nature of the game means that the worst team can beat the best team when both teams show up. All it takes is a bounce and a goalie being on. 

 

It's not so much that our game has improved to be one that holds up on a deep playoff run, but it happened to be structured enough and supplied with enough effort that within the parameters of luck/bounces/everything else that makes hockey hockey, we happened to score 1 or 2 goals more than good teams in a 60 minute stretch. 

Edited March 2, 2018 by Randall Flagg

[Weave]

Eh, that would be true for a sport like basketball, but the inherent nature of the game means that the worst team can beat the best team when both teams show up. All it takes is a bounce and a goalie being on.

Not consistently though. Look at our seasons series with both teams. Thats not any given Sunday stuff.

[Randall Flagg]

Not consistently though. Look at our seasons series with both teams. Thats not any given Sunday stuff.

Yeah, check my edit. 

I only saw 2 of the 4 games between those teams but it looked to me like Tampa and Boston were both trying (at least not obviously slacking wrt their normal selves) and doing pretty well but just not having it go their way. It happens. I've also lost the thread of my original point a little bit, can't remember exactly where I was going, I'm tired.