WildCard Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 Conversation happening in the Bills thread. What made Gretzky so dominate? How would he do in today's NHL? Would Crosby be better than him in the 80's NHL? Slow defensemen, bad goalies...what is the difference between today and the NHL of the 80s? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 The training level of NHL players today is light years more advanced than in the 80's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Buffalo Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 That being said guys like Jari Kurri, Paul Coffey a D, Messier, Anderson could all skate and Fuhr was not a totally a stand up goalie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gramps Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 And look at the goalie equipment back then ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kh056e-AYGM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 I would love to see a a guy like Gretzky with modern training. The raw talent is what matters the most. Anyone who was good in the past would be good now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabres Fan in NS Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 Gretzky was the best ever. He would be the best if he played now. Crosby would be a pretty close third in the 80's behind Mario. Mario would be a fair distance behind Wayne. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 I would love to see a a guy like Gretzky with modern training. The raw talent is what matters the most. Anyone who was good in the past would be good now. I disagree. The logic here is that because Gretzky was way above his peers in the 80's with todays training he would be way above his peers still. I think the gap would be considerably closer because of how much more talented the entire NHL is today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Buffalo Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 (edited) Gretzky was the best ever. He would be the best if he played now. Crosby would be a pretty close third in the 80's behind Mario. Mario would be a fair distance behind Wayne. I am not sure, a healthy Mario was a beast... Gretzky a better passer, but Mario was faster and 6-4. Both better than Sid, Sid has gotten tougher as he has gotten older and still has skills. Interesting debate and throw in non athlete except hockey McDavid and hmmm Edited February 16, 2018 by Kottbullar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 I disagree. The logic here is that because Gretzky was way above his peers in the 80's with todays training he would be way above his peers still. I think the gap would be considerably closer because of how much more talented the entire NHL is today. If the NHL is so much more talented then why are there still players who are way ahead of their peers just like Gretzky was? I think it would be impossible for him to equal his stats, sure, but relatively speaking I think if he was the best player in the league then he would still be the best player in the league now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted February 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 If the NHL is so much more talented then why are there still players who are way ahead of their peers just like Gretzky was? I think it would be impossible for him to equal his stats, sure, but relatively speaking I think if he was the best player in the league then he would still be the best player in the league now. I don't think Crosby or McDavid, or anyone else in recent memory, has even been close to having the distance Gretzky had between himself and his peers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 I don't think Crosby or McDavid, or anyone else in recent memory, has even been close to having the distance Gretzky had between himself and his peers You're focusing too much on raw stats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted February 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 You're focusing too much on raw stats. How else would I measure that gap? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gramps Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 (edited) Look at the GAA for goalie in Gretzky's era versus today. Billy Smith was one of the top goalies in 1981-82 with a 2.97 GAA. In 2016, that would've ranked him about 71st. Grant Fuhr was @ 3.31 which in 2016 would have ranked him last among regular starters Bigger equipment and move to a better goaltending style has contributed to reduced scoring. Edited February 16, 2018 by Gramps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 The biggest change in hockey since Gretzky’s heyday is the widespread use of structured defensive systems and play. Wayne’s greatest asset was his creativity on the fly. Would he be as effective today with the team systems in place now? I don’t know. Would he be an elite player? No doubt in my mind. But I don’t know if he’d break all the previous records in this era of structure and defense. I do think Wayne would still be the most talented player in the league, and that bigger goalie pads would reduce his scoring, but he’s still got the talent to be a scoring leader in a league with huge goalie pads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 The biggest change in hockey since Gretzky’s heyday is the widespread use of structured defensive systems and play. Wayne’s greatest asset was his creativity on the fly. Would he be as effective today with the team systems in place now? I don’t know. Would he be an elite player? No doubt in my mind. But I don’t know if he’d break all the previous records in this era of structure and defense. I do think Wayne would still be the most talented player in the league, and that bigger goalie pads would reduce his scoring, but he’s still got the talent to be a scoring leader in a league with huge goalie pads. He wouldn't hit 200 points, but very likely would get ~140 & if he was on a talented (like Chicago or Pittsburgh during their runs) could break 160. His greatest asset - understanding where the puck was going better than anyone before or since - would not be totally negated by better systems & better training. The most amazing thing about watching him live was that he DIDN'T stand out but at the end of the game he'd have about 5 points in an Euler W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 He wouldn't hit 200 points, but very likely would get ~140 & if he was on a talented (like Chicago or Pittsburgh during their runs) could break 160. His greatest asset - understanding where the puck was going better than anyone before or since - would not be totally negated by better systems & better training. The most amazing thing about watching him live was that he DIDN'T stand out but at the end of the game he'd have about 5 points in an Euler W. My thought was, lanes that were open in that unstructured era would not be open at all today. I suspect that 140 points wouldn't happen in today's NHL. I'm thinking 120 is about where he would have topped out if he was in his prime in '16-17. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 My thought was, lanes that were open in that unstructured era would not be open at all today. I suspect that 140 points wouldn't happen in today's NHL. I'm thinking 120 is about where he would have topped out if he was in his prime in '16-17. Others (ok, just Crosby) have hit 120. Really believe that 140 would be reachable for Gretzky in an era that's seen 120. OT would be crazy into his wheelhouse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvelo Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 And look at the goalie equipment back then ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kh056e-AYGM Great video, thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BagBoy Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 Great points by all. As phenomenal as Gretzky was, it was almost a perfect storm of circumstances that allowed him to get to those Babe Ruth type stats. But I think the main reason that even Wayne in his prime could never come anywhere near to the stats he achieved in today's NHL is the salary cap. With the salary cap, there will never be teams like those '80's Oilers teams again. And that's a good thing IMO. And Kottbullar, I'm with you - #66 when healthy was other-freaking-worldly like nobody ever, including Gretzky. I think even Gretzky would say that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjd1001 Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 (edited) In Todays NHL I don't think he would do that well. His 20 year career would get him 550-600 goals....not close to 900 like he got in his era. His lack of speed through the neutral zone (which I don't think would get much better even with todays training) and lack of size and willingness to play along the boards MIGHT lead to him getting less ice time and making those numbers even more. In this era, he would not be the best player....Crosby would be better overall, and Ovechkin would be much more dangerous of a goal scorer. Seeing how the D-men played back then, and the goalies equipment...I think Ovechkin in THAT era would truly be a video game....with his shot, I think he would get 70 goals a season on a routine basis..and at his peak could challenge 100. Look back at the early 1980's...Blaine Stoughton scored 56 one year...Rick Kehoe had 55...Wayne Babych had 54...Denis Maruk had 60....Mike Bullard had 51...John Ogrodnick had 55...Paul Coffey had 48 as a D-MAN....it wasn't uncommon to have 5 or 6 players as 50 goal scorers per year...and 20 or more above 40. Edited February 17, 2018 by mjd1001 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PerreaultForever Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 Perreault was better. Gretzky would have been sent to the hospital by those Philly thugs, Gilbert almost beat them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7+6=13 Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 He'd still be great but the way you're allowed to lean on offensive players today, he'd have to be willing to be more physical. It's tough treading out there now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 Great points by all. As phenomenal as Gretzky was, it was almost a perfect storm of circumstances that allowed him to get to those Babe Ruth type stats. But I think the main reason that even Wayne in his prime could never come anywhere near to the stats he achieved in today's NHL is the salary cap. With the salary cap, there will never be teams like those '80's Oilers teams again. And that's a good thing IMO. And Kottbullar, I'm with you - #66 when healthy was other-freaking-worldly like nobody ever, including Gretzky. I think even Gretzky would say that. Except all those key pieces for the Eulers were in their 2nd contracts (in today's terms) as all the key guys were born between '59-'62. (Gretzky, Huddy, Lowe, Coffey, Kurri, Anderson, Messier, Fuhr, Moog) & a few more were only a year or 2 older. So though it isn't likely a team like that can be assembled anymore due to 31 (soon to be 32) teams drafting, the cap wouldn't necessarily tear it apart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PerreaultForever Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 He'd still be great but the way you're allowed to lean on offensive players today, he'd have to be willing to be more physical. It's tough treading out there now. You really think it's tougher now than when Larry Playfair was cross-checking people over the back of the head to clear the goal area? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woods-racer Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 You really think it's tougher now than when Larry Playfair was cross-checking people over the back of the head to clear the goal area? The nasty back then was NASTY! That part has calmed considerably. But they had enforcers back then to self police. I believe that today's stars actually have it a bit tougher as they don't get the luxury of having their backs protected by a taped wrapped knuckle dragger on double skates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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