Off Topic Star Wars -The Last Jedi

[Samson's Flow]

I saw it today with a bunch of family members.  About 1/3 of us liked it and 2/3 did not.  I was in the group that liked it, but like the superhero movies I don't expect much out of these other than popcorn entertainment.  There were some amazing scenes, to be sure. 

 

I read the thread but didn't see any suggestions as to when the spoiler ban should end.  Does anyone have a preference?  Jan. 31?

Do we really have to wait a whole 'nother 35 days to talk about it? Or did you mean to say Jan 1?

 

At some point the continuation of the spoiler ban just prevents conversation.

[darksabre]

It was bad.

[Ogre]

It was bad.

You got all the Star Wars, my friend. I’m sorry.

[darksabre]

You got all the Star Wars, my friend. I’m sorry.

:(

[LGR4GM]

I definitely agree that Kylo lacks menace. However, I love him to pieces as a villain. Utterly compelling. He's far and away the most interesting Star Wars villain from any of the movies.

I think he is suppose to lack menace. He's a kid.

 

Much better then force awakens. Enjoyed it.

[Rasmus_]

Snoke had better not be dead.  That entire scene was a crock of ######. For a villain that was supposed to be more powerful than Vader / Palpatine, I truly believe it was lackluster.  There were parts I definitely liked.  However, it did not live up to the hype for me.  It was a step up from Awakens.  I will have to watch it again at a point to further digest.  I loved Rose. 

Edited December 29, 2017 by De Listig Ett

[ubkev]

Well...I guess we're doing spoilers then.

[darksabre]

If we're doing spoilers then...I have a lot to say. 

[sabills]

I liked it.

[GoPre]

Snoke had better not be dead. That entire scene was a crock of ######. For a villain that was supposed to be more powerful than Vader / Palpatine, I truly believe it was lackluster. There were parts I definitely liked. However, it did not live up to the hype for me. It was a step up from Awakens. I will have to watch it again at a point to further digest. I loved Rose.

I'll second that. Have hopes Snoke knew exactly what was going on w/ Ren. Maybe it was a part of helping Ren make a complete turn or getting to another level of power or even tempt Rey. If Luke could project an image of himself, I'm sure Snoke could do the same. We learned next to nothing about Snoke in episodes 7 and 8. Right now it's a huge waste of a character. Had so much potential. Another waste was Rey. Episode 7 raised interesting questions....and Episode 8 wrote the questions off as if they had little importance. Have never been this disappointed w/ a Star Wars movie.

Edited December 29, 2017 by GoPre

[LGR4GM]

I'll second that. Have hopes Snoke knew exactly what was going on w/ Ren. Maybe it was a part of helping Ren make a complete turn or getting to another level of power or even tempt Rey. If Luke could project an image of himself, I'm sure Snoke could do the same. We learned next to nothing about Snoke in episodes 7 and 8. Right now it's a huge waste of a character. Had so much potential. Another waste was Rey. Episode 7 raised interesting questions....and Episode 8 wrote the questions off as if they had little importance. Have never been this disappointed w/ a Star Wars movie.

I think that's why I liked it. They didn't give everyone some big grand purpose and some tied together backstory. Rey being who she is was perfect.

[Taro T]

I'll second that. Have hopes Snoke knew exactly what was going on w/ Ren. Maybe it was a part of helping Ren make a complete turn or getting to another level of power or even tempt Rey. If Luke could project an image of himself, I'm sure Snoke could do the same. We learned next to nothing about Snoke in episodes 7 and 8. Right now it's a huge waste of a character. Had so much potential. Another waste was Rey. Episode 7 raised interesting questions....and Episode 8 wrote the questions off as if they had little importance. Have never been this disappointed w/ a Star Wars movie.

How would Snokes have cast an image of himself falling into 2 pieces?

 

While it seems a total waste of a character, having him do an Obi Wan or Yoda (or even Anakin @ the very end of RotJ :rolleyes: ) figuring out how to interact w/ the real world from beyond the grave makes for some REALLY silly (IMHO) scenarios of ghost good guys battling ghost bad guys.

 

It's more likely they have the makings for a dark "origins" movie (or series) as we know NOTHING about him except his being crazy powerful & the supreme leader of the 1st order. They could make a really cool story or they could Lucasize his childhood, either way, schmucks like us will shell out our hard earned dough to watch it. ;)

I think that's why I liked it. They didn't give everyone some big grand purpose and some tied together backstory. Rey being who she is was perfect.

Totally disagree. If some totally random nobody can become the person most powerfully channeling the force in the entire galaxy without anymore training than 3 days w/ a very disillusioned Jedi, then we're on our way to Monty Python's "bicycle repairman" skit.

[GoPre]

How would Snokes have cast an image of himself falling into 2 pieces?

;)

If Snoke was able to cast an image from wherever, I'm sure he could make that image appear as if it was getting cut in two.

 

I know this idea is a bit out there. Just really disliking what they did w/ Snoke.

Edited December 29, 2017 by GoPre

[Taro T]

If Snoke was able to cast an image from wherever, I'm sure he could make that image appear as if it was getting cut in two.

I know this idea is a bit out there. Just really disliking what they did w/ Snoke.

He probably could. But if you allow him to go off in that direction, you simply have him never leave wherever the f### it is he lives, project himself out & become totally invincible. That's a horrendously dull concept, IMHO. Edited December 29, 2017 by Taro T

[GoPre]

He probably could. But if you allow him to go off in that direction, you simply have him never leave wherever the f### it is he lives, project himself out & become totally invincible. That's a horrendously dull concept, IMHO.

And writing the character off was a great idea....

[Taro T]

And writing the character off was a great idea....

On the surface, it doesn't appear to be. Depends on how the next episode's story arc progresses to say that definitively.

 

But if it was the waste it seems, how does coming up w/ a mitichloridianly (sp?) bad idea to resurect him or have him even light years beyond more powerful than any of the Jedi were make that better? 2 wrongs don't make a right, again, IMHO.

 

And if he IS that powerful, why leave any rebels alive? Castro was down to 4 men at one point. If you've shown no compunction of mercy in the past, are at war, and you can annihilate your enemy, do so. To paraphrase BNL, if there's someone you can just snuff out, then so. ;)

Edited December 29, 2017 by Taro T

[Weave]

The Snoke death scene and the Mary Poppins in space scenes were tough swallows.

 

But I’ve learned to accept these movies for what they really are, popcorn and fluff movies for Winter time watching. They are about the same to me as the typical Summer action hero blockbusters. And as such, Last Jedi succeeds.

[ubkev]

Am I the only one who never gave a flyin about snoke?

[TrueBlueGED]

Am I the only one who never gave a flyin ###### about snoke?

Pretty sure Rian Johnson didn't either :lol:

[Doctor of Philhousley]

Am I the only one who never gave a flyin ###### about snoke?

Nope. His death makes room for Kylo and let's him be something more than just another henchman ***cough, cough, "Vader", cough, cough***. 

[darksabre]

I'm going to spoiler tag this for now because there's a lot of stuff. Click to read. 

 

 

I have so much to say but I’ll start with the things I liked:

Grumpy Hermit Luke - They did a great job with him. He’s by far the best actor in the movie and you can tell he’s really having fun using his voice actor experience to make Luke a grouchy old man in contrast to how we remember him as an energetic young guy in the original trilogy. He’s really come a long way as an actor and this should have been his bouquet final.

Chewie and the Porgs - I know, I know, it’s kind of a money grab by Disney. But I thought it was actually kinda fun and I would have liked even more Chewie and the Porgs shenanigans. I also like Ewoks so take that as you will.

Kylo as the Chump - I love how he’s the bad guy no one takes seriously. Where Vader had his haters, Kylo is just the butt of jokes. Even Snoke thinks he’s crap. I love that.

The Overall Kylo Arc - I like Kylo killing Snoke as an act of defiance and an attempt to be taken seriously once and for all. It doesn’t even end up working because they’re still laughing at him at the end. Luke doesn’t take him seriously either, choosing instead to troll him on the salt planet.

Snoke as a Farce - Some supreme leader this guy is, right? Gets his dumb ass killed by that total chud Kylo Ren. He’s no Palpatine, that’s for sure. Just like Kylo is no Vader. It kinda fits.

Benicio del Toro as DJ, ”The Grey Area” - Good character who deserved more screen time. Very classic “Star Wars”. Almost Han Solo-ish.


What I didn’t like:

Basically everything else.

Not enough Luke and Rey dealing with the Dark Side - This should have been the biggest theme of the movie. Rey is clearly more powerful than Luke ever was, and so the temptation of the Dark Side should have been a huge issue. I like that Luke was terrified of her and what she could become if he trained her. But I needed more. They needed to spend a lot more time on the island.

The Script - Jesus the script is bad. They can't let a single concept slide without explaining what it means it to us or trotting out some feckless platitude. They could have cut half the dialogue and made a great movie. Just very lazy writing that takes good actors and makes them bad.

Poe as the Usurper - What the hell is this all about? Why do I need Poe, hero of the resistance, acting like this? It does nothing for the plot and by the end of the movie I was hoping he'd just die. What a waste of a character. He's supposed to be Leia's best dude and instead he's just a carless douche. It’s fine if we want to have him struggling and conflicted about the resistance, his role, etc. But this was all a bit much.

Rose - Rose was pointless. I had no need for this character. They could have cut her out completely. You wanna show Finn having a moment of weakness as a plot device? Have Poe catch him packing to leave and let the BFFs have a nice moment. Then let Poe be the one who stops Finn from the suicide run at the end, closing the arc that Finn started when he saved Poe in Force Awakens.

Tracking ships through Hyperspace - Eff right off with this tragically lazy plot device.

Hacking shields - Eff right off with this lazy plot device. TEH 1337 H4X0R5!

Death of Phasma - Eff off with this too. Why create this awesome character just to have her die unceremoniously in this movie? Why give her the Boba Fett treatment? What a waste.

The Entire sub-plot for the Resistance - So this whole thing is supposed to be going on behind the scenes of the Rey and Luke storyline. Except it isn't. Who the heck is this movie even about? I get that we need to have Finn, Poe, and the Resistance doing something, but this was all a bit ridiculous. First we have the big escape, then we have the slow-motion car chase, then the (HURR HURR) “Opposite Day” Hoth battle on the salt planet. Listen, if you’re going to try to make a movie that isn’t Empire Strikes Back, then do that. Instead we end up with a movie that is the Empire Strikes Back, only way less interesting.

The Casino/Failing DJ’s Character and Message - If they wanted to make a point about the military industrial complex, war profiteering, and the ambiguity between what is “good” and what is “evil”, (they got into this with the balance between Light and Dark thing Luke was talking about) they could have used Benicio a lot more and found a way to completely cut the casino, the panther-horse racing, and the children out. Everything about all of that was very on-the-nose and not fun at all. And I say that as a liberal and Roosevelt conservationist who likes a nice shot at the super-rich now and then. It was all shoehorned in in a way that I found myself completely taken out of the movie to the point where I struggled to recover. There was a more simple and elegant way to do all of this that would have been much more meaningful. Instead we get a Bernie-bro Twitter rant. How about just have DJ be a prisoner the resistance was holding captive? We could have had plenty of tension about “will he or won’t he help?” and cut a ton of BS out.

Everything is a Miracle - Speaking of tension, there is no tension in this movie. Every time someone ends up in a sticky situation, something miraculous happens. Not just lucky, but f*cking miraculous. What the hell is going on here? I understand that we need luck as a plot device, but there was no tension. You KNEW something was going to happen and everything was going to be fine no matter how “desperate” the situation appeared to be. This is embodied in the whole “Leia in Space” thing. What the hell am I watching, Star Wars or Kung Fu Hustle? (I love Kung Fu Hustle). I get that Leia is force sensitive and maybe Luke trained her a little bit before he disappeared, but there’s no way she’s surviving in the vacuum of space even if she’s a f*cking Jedi Master. If Emperor Palpatine can’t fly, then f*cking Leia sure as hell can’t do it in space. They should have just killed her character off right there. It would have been fine. We were all sad about it. People in the theater were crying. It was a #moment. But no….we need Leia to live for...some reason? F*cking let her go join Han in the space afterlife or something.

Everyone is a Superhero - There are no human beings in this movie. Every character is magically good at everything and what am I watching an Avengers movie now? Lazy.

Lack of Chewie and Grieving - They missed a huge opportunity here to have Chewie grieving with Luke, maybe have the Porgs fill the hole in his soul? I dunno. All we get is a “Where’s Han?” and then it’s onto the next whotheheckcares plot twist.

Finn was a hot shot Stormtrooper and also a Janitor - I still don’t get this one from the Force Awakens, but it would have been nice if they’d dropped it completely. Instead it’s all we hear about in this movie and it’s really obnoxious. We get it, the black guy was head janitor for some unknown reason. Maybe let’s come up with a better way to move the plot forward.

Finn’s Suicide Run - How dumb was that? They fire up this laser cannon and the first thing they show you is that even the targeting beam for it is giving the shield door a hard time. So clearly Finn can drive a rusted out tin can of a land speeder right into the path and not be boiled alive immediately??? Come on with this. There was a better way.

The Salt Hoth Battle on the whole - This was just stupid. We didn’t need it. The whole “trapped alive in a big sarcophagus” concept was very dramatic on its own. The planet is made of effing salt. None of the equipment the rebels abandoned there should have been operational. They should have gotten there and realized everything was trashed from the salt and that there was nothing they could do except wait for the end. No running. No fighting. Just really tense “here comes the end”. Shoot, you could have made the “trapped on a sinking ship” concept last half of the movie if you had gone straight to it instead of the dumb slow-mo car chase. That tension could have built and built until the miracle ending and been much more powerful because a million other miracles wouldn’t have already happened beforehand. Rey lifting the boulders to save them should have been THE scene for her.

I’m sure I could think of more but I’m just making myself agitated. This movie had so much potential to be great after the groundwork they laid with Force Awakens. Instead we ended up with some bad knock-off of ESB written and directed by M Night Shyamalan.

 

 

[Samson's Flow]

I'm going to spoiler tag this for now because there's a lot of stuff. Click to read. 

 

 

I have so much to say but I’ll start with the things I liked:

 

Grumpy Hermit Luke - They did a great job with him. He’s by far the best actor in the movie and you can tell he’s really having fun using his voice actor experience to make Luke a grouchy old man in contrast to how we remember him as an energetic young guy in the original trilogy. He’s really come a long way as an actor and this should have been his bouquet final.

 

Chewie and the Porgs - I know, I know, it’s kind of a money grab by Disney. But I thought it was actually kinda fun and I would have liked even more Chewie and the Porgs shenanigans. I also like Ewoks so take that as you will.

 

Kylo as the Chump - I love how he’s the bad guy no one takes seriously. Where Vader had his haters, Kylo is just the butt of jokes. Even Snoke thinks he’s crap. I love that.

 

The Overall Kylo Arc - I like Kylo killing Snoke as an act of defiance and an attempt to be taken seriously once and for all. It doesn’t even end up working because they’re still laughing at him at the end. Luke doesn’t take him seriously either, choosing instead to troll him on the salt planet.

 

Snoke as a Farce - Some supreme leader this guy is, right? Gets his dumb ass killed by that total chud Kylo Ren. He’s no Palpatine, that’s for sure. Just like Kylo is no Vader. It kinda fits.

 

Benicio del Toro as DJ, ”The Grey Area” - Good character who deserved more screen time. Very classic “Star Wars”. Almost Han Solo-ish.

 

 

What I didn’t like:

 

Basically everything else.

 

Not enough Luke and Rey dealing with the Dark Side - This should have been the biggest theme of the movie. Rey is clearly more powerful than Luke ever was, and so the temptation of the Dark Side should have been a huge issue. I like that Luke was terrified of her and what she could become if he trained her. But I needed more. They needed to spend a lot more time on the island.

 

The Script - Jesus the script is bad. They can't let a single concept slide without explaining what it means it to us or trotting out some feckless platitude. They could have cut half the dialogue and made a great movie. Just very lazy writing that takes good actors and makes them bad.

 

Poe as the Usurper - What the hell is this all about? Why do I need Poe, hero of the resistance, acting like this? It does nothing for the plot and by the end of the movie I was hoping he'd just die. What a waste of a character. He's supposed to be Leia's best dude and instead he's just a carless douche. It’s fine if we want to have him struggling and conflicted about the resistance, his role, etc. But this was all a bit much.

 

Rose - Rose was pointless. I had no need for this character. They could have cut her out completely. You wanna show Finn having a moment of weakness as a plot device? Have Poe catch him packing to leave and let the BFFs have a nice moment. Then let Poe be the one who stops Finn from the suicide run at the end, closing the arc that Finn started when he saved Poe in Force Awakens.

 

Tracking ships through Hyperspace - Eff right off with this tragically lazy plot device.

 

Hacking shields - Eff right off with this lazy plot device. TEH 1337 H4X0R5!

 

Death of Phasma - Eff off with this too. Why create this awesome character just to have her die unceremoniously in this movie? Why give her the Boba Fett treatment? What a waste.

 

The Entire sub-plot for the Resistance - So this whole thing is supposed to be going on behind the scenes of the Rey and Luke storyline. Except it isn't. Who the heck is this movie even about? I get that we need to have Finn, Poe, and the Resistance doing something, but this was all a bit ridiculous. First we have the big escape, then we have the slow-motion car chase, then the (HURR HURR) “Opposite Day” Hoth battle on the salt planet. Listen, if you’re going to try to make a movie that isn’t Empire Strikes Back, then do that. Instead we end up with a movie that is the Empire Strikes Back, only way less interesting.

 

The Casino/Failing DJ’s Character and Message - If they wanted to make a point about the military industrial complex, war profiteering, and the ambiguity between what is “good” and what is “evil”, (they got into this with the balance between Light and Dark thing Luke was talking about) they could have used Benicio a lot more and found a way to completely cut the casino, the panther-horse racing, and the children out. Everything about all of that was very on-the-nose and not fun at all. And I say that as a liberal and Roosevelt conservationist who likes a nice shot at the super-rich now and then. It was all shoehorned in in a way that I found myself completely taken out of the movie to the point where I struggled to recover. There was a more simple and elegant way to do all of this that would have been much more meaningful. Instead we get a Bernie-bro Twitter rant. How about just have DJ be a prisoner the resistance was holding captive? We could have had plenty of tension about “will he or won’t he help?” and cut a ton of BS out.

 

Everything is a Miracle - Speaking of tension, there is no tension in this movie. Every time someone ends up in a sticky situation, something miraculous happens. Not just lucky, but f*cking miraculous. What the hell is going on here? I understand that we need luck as a plot device, but there was no tension. You KNEW something was going to happen and everything was going to be fine no matter how “desperate” the situation appeared to be. This is embodied in the whole “Leia in Space” thing. What the hell am I watching, Star Wars or Kung Fu Hustle? (I love Kung Fu Hustle). I get that Leia is force sensitive and maybe Luke trained her a little bit before he disappeared, but there’s no way she’s surviving in the vacuum of space even if she’s a f*cking Jedi Master. If Emperor Palpatine can’t fly, then f*cking Leia sure as hell can’t do it in space. They should have just killed her character off right there. It would have been fine. We were all sad about it. People in the theater were crying. It was a #moment. But no….we need Leia to live for...some reason? F*cking let her go join Han in the space afterlife or something.

 

Everyone is a Superhero - There are no human beings in this movie. Every character is magically good at everything and what am I watching an Avengers movie now? Lazy.

 

Lack of Chewie and Grieving - They missed a huge opportunity here to have Chewie grieving with Luke, maybe have the Porgs fill the hole in his soul? I dunno. All we get is a “Where’s Han?” and then it’s onto the next whotheheckcares plot twist.

 

Finn was a hot shot Stormtrooper and also a Janitor - I still don’t get this one from the Force Awakens, but it would have been nice if they’d dropped it completely. Instead it’s all we hear about in this movie and it’s really obnoxious. We get it, the black guy was head janitor for some unknown reason. Maybe let’s come up with a better way to move the plot forward.

 

Finn’s Suicide Run - How dumb was that? They fire up this laser cannon and the first thing they show you is that even the targeting beam for it is giving the shield door a hard time. So clearly Finn can drive a rusted out tin can of a land speeder right into the path and not be boiled alive immediately??? Come on with this. There was a better way.

 

The Salt Hoth Battle on the whole - This was just stupid. We didn’t need it. The whole “trapped alive in a big sarcophagus” concept was very dramatic on its own. The planet is made of effing salt. None of the equipment the rebels abandoned there should have been operational. They should have gotten there and realized everything was trashed from the salt and that there was nothing they could do except wait for the end. No running. No fighting. Just really tense “here comes the end”. Shoot, you could have made the “trapped on a sinking ship” concept last half of the movie if you had gone straight to it instead of the dumb slow-mo car chase. That tension could have built and built until the miracle ending and been much more powerful because a million other miracles wouldn’t have already happened beforehand. Rey lifting the boulders to save them should have been THE scene for her.

 

I’m sure I could think of more but I’m just making myself agitated. This movie had so much potential to be great after the groundwork they laid with Force Awakens. Instead we ended up with some bad knock-off of ESB written and directed by M Night Shyamalan.

 

 

Bravo. Put the finger on a lot of the things that just didn't feel right to me.

 

That said, I was still generally entertained by the movie once I realized it was more Marvel comics and less Star Wars. My theory is that the modern graphics technology has removed the limitations in terms of what they can do, so now the story goes from normal with ships & lightsabers to bat insane/not rooted in reality.

[darksabre]

Bravo. Put the finger on a lot of the things that just didn't feel right to me.

 

That said, I was still generally entertained by the movie once I realized it was more Marvel comics and less Star Wars. My theory is that the modern graphics technology has removed the limitations in terms of what they can do, so now the story goes from normal with ships & lightsabers to bat ###### insane/not rooted in reality.

See, I don't want Marvel comics. We have too many of those movies already, and they're all just kinda okay.

 

I want Star Wars. This wasn't Star Wars. It was just another generic superhero action movie based on Star Wars. 

[bunomatic]

I hate the marvel series of movies so I'll wait to see this one on t.v. ( unless the wife drags me )

[darksabre]

It was a movie that wants you to know how intellectual it is so it keeps telling you it's intellectual, instead of actually just being intellectual.