"What's wrong with Dad?" Thoughts on the core problem with the Buffalo NHL franchise

[Eleven]

2 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

Sheary is absolutely one of the guys I'd love to hear talk off the record. Something about him always made me think he was raising his eyebrows the whole time he was here.

 

[PASabreFan]

6 minutes ago, Eleven said:

 

He's doing it wrong, as usual.

[dudacek]

27 minutes ago, Kruppstahl said:

I listened to his pre-game comments from yesterday, quoted above, and I totally agree with you.

If you could get in the right atmosphere with him being genuine, he would be a good guy to talk to about how it really is off the record. 

I don't think it's that complicated though; Buffalo is not a sexy destination for a lot of players, we are (and have been) probably a bottom 3 or 5 franchise in the league for a decade now, it's not getting any better, and there really isn't a concrete plan in sight for how things are going to get better.

Especially if you are a guy used to a winning organization and have a ring, how in the world would you be happy about winding up in Buffalo?  It's just a business for these guys anyway, and they all make way too much money now.  

Players know how to suck it up, pad that retirement fund, and keep on keeping on.

I wonder how many players on the team right now are thinking about the day when they are playing elsewhere.

Sheary seemed to be quite happy to be off the sinking ship.

 

Instead of trying to plug the leaks, Sheary’s response was to edge his way over to the side and call for the lifeboat.

***** that guy.

[PerreaultForever]

On 11/30/2017 at 10:12 AM, spndnchz said:

Spoiled rich kids.

Ya this, but I think that goes to the owner as well.

We lost the work hard lunch bucket aesthetic of the red black and white era and replaced it with an idea of spend and you will win, pamper the athletes and they will come here and perform and focus on star power. As it failed and unravelled it set the foundation for a losing culture or laziness.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't some of the early stuff Pegula did was add a bunch of luxuries to an upgraded locker room? I don't remember the specifics, but as well as saying spend on FAs (money which was quickly wasted on bad choices) didn't he make "improvements" to the players room, etc.? The place became a country club and working hard went out the window. Then drafting players who lacked in the work hard department just fueled this until it started to burn out of control. 

After which the ownership has gone through a series of people with the idea of being with the times and trends rather than building an old style hockey team that competes and wins. So in the end it fails on all levels but definitely starts at the top. 

[bunomatic]

13 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Ya this, but I think that goes to the owner as well.

We lost the work hard lunch bucket aesthetic of the red black and white era and replaced it with an idea of spend and you will win, pamper the athletes and they will come here and perform and focus on star power. As it failed and unravelled it set the foundation for a losing culture or laziness.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't some of the early stuff Pegula did was add a bunch of luxuries to an upgraded locker room? I don't remember the specifics, but as well as saying spend on FAs (money which was quickly wasted on bad choices) didn't he make "improvements" to the players room, etc.? The place became a country club and working hard went out the window. Then drafting players who lacked in the work hard department just fueled this until it started to burn out of control. 

After which the ownership has gone through a series of people with the idea of being with the times and trends rather than building an old style hockey team that competes and wins. So in the end it fails on all levels but definitely starts at the top. 

Should have spent a boatload of money on scouting and development.

[LGR4GM]

13 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Ya this, but I think that goes to the owner as well.

We lost the work hard lunch bucket aesthetic of the red black and white era and replaced it with an idea of spend and you will win, pamper the athletes and they will come here and perform and focus on star power. As it failed and unravelled it set the foundation for a losing culture or laziness.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't some of the early stuff Pegula did was add a bunch of luxuries to an upgraded locker room? I don't remember the specifics, but as well as saying spend on FAs (money which was quickly wasted on bad choices) didn't he make "improvements" to the players room, etc.? The place became a country club and working hard went out the window. Then drafting players who lacked in the work hard department just fueled this until it started to burn out of control. 

After which the ownership has gone through a series of people with the idea of being with the times and trends rather than building an old style hockey team that competes and wins. So in the end it fails on all levels but definitely starts at the top. 

Lol the old and boring "the kids are lazy" motif. 

This team isn't good because it's not talented enough. 

[LGR4GM]

To add, remember how ROR stayed late with guys and had extra practice. Reinhart was one of them. But yea, it's because the pro athletes who've been competing against ppl their entire lives and had to beat out 95% of their competition to get this far, it's because those ppl are "lazy". 

[LTS]

Just now, LGR4GM said:

To add, remember how ROR stayed late with guys and had extra practice. Reinhart was one of them. But yea, it's because the pro athletes who've been competing against ppl their entire lives and had to beat out 95% of their competition to get this far, it's because those ppl are "lazy". 

Lazy, at this level, is a relative term I think.  Staying late doesn't always mean you play your butt off on the ice.  A few players on this team are playing a perimeter game. Eichel is the poster child for it right now.  There are others.  They play a stick check game when body check is required and their stick checks are hopeful swings as they drive by the puck carrier.

[LGR4GM]

A lot players on this team play the perimeter. That's not lazy, it's who they are. This team is losing because they are not talented enough. That's been the problem since 2013.

[LTS]

6 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

A lot players on this team play the perimeter. That's not lazy, it's who they are. This team is losing because they are not talented enough. That's been the problem since 2013.

They are lazy.

If you aren't willing to get the puck then it doesn't matter how much talent you have.  They CAN get the puck, they have shown in the past that they are willing to get the puck.  They are not doing it now and have not been for awhile.  Once they have the puck then we can clearly see their lack of talent.

Larssons, Girgensons, Okposo are the example. They are continually on the puck and causing turnovers, unfortunately they are not skilled enough to put it in the net routinely. At the same time Reinhart, Eichel, and others are not doing what it takes to get the puck.  They have talent, but they are too lazy to get the puck.

 

[Randall Flagg]

26 minutes ago, LTS said:

They are lazy.

If you aren't willing to get the puck then it doesn't matter how much talent you have.  They CAN get the puck, they have shown in the past that they are willing to get the puck.  They are not doing it now and have not been for awhile.  Once they have the puck then we can clearly see their lack of talent.

Larssons, Girgensons, Okposo are the example. They are continually on the puck and causing turnovers, unfortunately they are not skilled enough to put it in the net routinely. At the same time Reinhart, Eichel, and others are not doing what it takes to get the puck.  They have talent, but they are too lazy to get the puck.

 

I haven't watched the last 2 games, but historically, Reinhart is absolutely up there in terms of willingness to get the puck on the boards, and in fact, I'd put all the money I have on him being quantitatively better at it than anyone else on this team over a large span of time. He's superb at using his stick and shins to protect the puck, and has the skill to actuallly find a teammate when he gets free again, rather than just flipping it further down the boards for someone else to try and fight for.

[Brawndo]

1 hour ago, bunomatic said:

Should have spent a boatload of money on scouting and development.

This is from the Athletic’s Tim Graham.

The last paragraph is contradictory to the “Starting Today the Sole Purpose of The Buffalo Sabres is to win The Stanley Cup” and I’ll drill another well opening press conference. 

 

Beane assembled a fantabulous scouting department, consisting of several evaluators who have served upper-level roles with other teams or are considered attractive candidates to do so eventually: assistant GM Joe Schoen, pro personnel director Malik Boyd, college scouting director Terrance Gray, player personnel director Dan Morgan, college scouting assistant director Lake Dawson, senior scout Dennis Hickey and personnel adviser Brian Gaine. We at The Athletic Buffalo have written feature stories on most of them.

Think back to previous Bills GMs and their top lieutenants; most never got another NFL job.

Back to the Sabres … I don’t think a hockey czar is needed just as the Bills’ front office proves a football czar is unnecessary. Jason Botterill could be the Sabres’ boss man in the same way Beane commands the Bills.

The significant difference is that Botterill’s staff doesn’t resemble his Orchard Park counterpart’s deep crew.

Sabres assistant GM/Rochester Americans GM Randy Sexton previously was Ottawa Senators GM for two and a half years and Florida Panthers GM for seven months, and his teams failed to reach the postseason. He worked with Botterill in Pittsburgh as amateur scouting director. Sexton oversaw the Penguins’ drafts in 2016 and 2017. None of those picks have played in the NHL. The Penguins didn’t have any first-round selections, but they did take three second-rounders with Sexton.

Buffalo’s other assistant GM, Steve Greeley, is considered a front-office riser. The 39-year-old former Boston University associate head coach interviewed for the Carolina Hurricanes’ top job in 2018.

Amateur scouting director Ryan Jankowski was assistant GM with the New York Islanders from 2005 to 2010 and oversaw player personnel for Canada’s world junior and under-18 teams before joining Buffalo.

An answer to fortifying the Sabres’ front office would be to spend money to make those lieutenant jobs more attractive to top scouts with better credentials. But with rumblings of more personnel cutbacks across Pegula Sports and Entertainment offices, a substantial cash infusion into hockey operations seems unlikely.

 

 

[bunomatic]

18 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

This is from the Athletic’s Tim Graham.

The last paragraph is contradictory to the “Starting Today the Sole Purpose of The Buffalo Sabres is to win The Stanley Cup” and I’ll drill another well opening press conference. 

 

Beane assembled a fantabulous scouting department, consisting of several evaluators who have served upper-level roles with other teams or are considered attractive candidates to do so eventually: assistant GM Joe Schoen, pro personnel director Malik Boyd, college scouting director Terrance Gray, player personnel director Dan Morgan, college scouting assistant director Lake Dawson, senior scout Dennis Hickey and personnel adviser Brian Gaine. We at The Athletic Buffalo have written feature stories on most of them.

Think back to previous Bills GMs and their top lieutenants; most never got another NFL job.

Back to the Sabres … I don’t think a hockey czar is needed just as the Bills’ front office proves a football czar is unnecessary. Jason Botterill could be the Sabres’ boss man in the same way Beane commands the Bills.

The significant difference is that Botterill’s staff doesn’t resemble his Orchard Park counterpart’s deep crew.

Sabres assistant GM/Rochester Americans GM Randy Sexton previously was Ottawa Senators GM for two and a half years and Florida Panthers GM for seven months, and his teams failed to reach the postseason. He worked with Botterill in Pittsburgh as amateur scouting director. Sexton oversaw the Penguins’ drafts in 2016 and 2017. None of those picks have played in the NHL. The Penguins didn’t have any first-round selections, but they did take three second-rounders with Sexton.

Buffalo’s other assistant GM, Steve Greeley, is considered a front-office riser. The 39-year-old former Boston University associate head coach interviewed for the Carolina Hurricanes’ top job in 2018.

Amateur scouting director Ryan Jankowski was assistant GM with the New York Islanders from 2005 to 2010 and oversaw player personnel for Canada’s world junior and under-18 teams before joining Buffalo.

An answer to fortifying the Sabres’ front office would be to spend money to make those lieutenant jobs more attractive to top scouts with better credentials. But with rumblings of more personnel cutbacks across Pegula Sports and Entertainment offices, a substantial cash infusion into hockey operations seems unlikely.

 

 

We’re ¥%€#ed.

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, Randall Flagg said:

I haven't watched the last 2 games, but historically, Reinhart is absolutely up there in terms of willingness to get the puck on the boards, and in fact, I'd put all the money I have on him being quantitatively better at it than anyone else on this team over a large span of time. He's superb at using his stick and shins to protect the puck, and has the skill to actuallly find a teammate when he gets free again, rather than just flipping it further down the boards for someone else to try and fight for.

This has been absolutely true with Reinhart for most of the past two years.

The past three or four games, not so much.

[Randall Flagg]

7 minutes ago, dudacek said:

This has been absolutely true with Reinhart for most of the past two years.

The past three or four games, not so much.

I understand the frustration this causes, but I also don't think people watch other players/teams with the same critical eye that they do their own players/teams when things get bad. 

Because there isn't a player on the planet that is immune to three or four games of this

[dudacek]

11 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

I understand the frustration this causes, but I also don't think people watch other players/teams with the same critical eye that they do their own players/teams when things get bad. 

Because there isn't a player on the planet that is immune to three or four games of this

Absolutely true over the course of the season.

On a more macro sense though, my take on Sam and Jack is that they've kinda followed a career path of " happy to be here' ->  'losing sucks, but we will get better because I'm really good and that's what happens' -> 'somebody needs to fix this' -> (this summer) 'I need to fix this' -> (right now) 'I gave it everything I have and nothing changes.'

Right now, they are feeling the same way the fan base feels and it is reflected in their play. Let's see how they move past it.

Edited March 7, 2020 by dudacek

[thewookie1]

49 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

This is from the Athletic’s Tim Graham.

The last paragraph is contradictory to the “Starting Today the Sole Purpose of The Buffalo Sabres is to win The Stanley Cup” and I’ll drill another well opening press conference. 

 

Beane assembled a fantabulous scouting department, consisting of several evaluators who have served upper-level roles with other teams or are considered attractive candidates to do so eventually: assistant GM Joe Schoen, pro personnel director Malik Boyd, college scouting director Terrance Gray, player personnel director Dan Morgan, college scouting assistant director Lake Dawson, senior scout Dennis Hickey and personnel adviser Brian Gaine. We at The Athletic Buffalo have written feature stories on most of them.

Think back to previous Bills GMs and their top lieutenants; most never got another NFL job.

Back to the Sabres … I don’t think a hockey czar is needed just as the Bills’ front office proves a football czar is unnecessary. Jason Botterill could be the Sabres’ boss man in the same way Beane commands the Bills.

The significant difference is that Botterill’s staff doesn’t resemble his Orchard Park counterpart’s deep crew.

Sabres assistant GM/Rochester Americans GM Randy Sexton previously was Ottawa Senators GM for two and a half years and Florida Panthers GM for seven months, and his teams failed to reach the postseason. He worked with Botterill in Pittsburgh as amateur scouting director. Sexton oversaw the Penguins’ drafts in 2016 and 2017. None of those picks have played in the NHL. The Penguins didn’t have any first-round selections, but they did take three second-rounders with Sexton.

Buffalo’s other assistant GM, Steve Greeley, is considered a front-office riser. The 39-year-old former Boston University associate head coach interviewed for the Carolina Hurricanes’ top job in 2018.

Amateur scouting director Ryan Jankowski was assistant GM with the New York Islanders from 2005 to 2010 and oversaw player personnel for Canada’s world junior and under-18 teams before joining Buffalo.

An answer to fortifying the Sabres’ front office would be to spend money to make those lieutenant jobs more attractive to top scouts with better credentials. But with rumblings of more personnel cutbacks across Pegula Sports and Entertainment offices, a substantial cash infusion into hockey operations seems unlikely.

 

 

I won't quite jump off a cliff yet as I do know for a fact that there are PSE personnel cutbacks but it mainly has to do with unifying some roles between the Bills and Sabres. Primarily its them trying to get rid of some of the more redundant roles. I can't really comment on if they don't intend to help the Sabres scouting department or if they do.

On a similar note, BIlls employees want to keep their NFL worker pensions which are far better than the NHL's pensions.  

[Randall Flagg]

39 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Absolutely true over the course of the season.

On a more macro sense though, my take on Sam and Jack is that they've kinda followed a career path of " happy to be here' ->  'losing sucks, but we will get better because I'm really good and that's what happens' -> 'somebody needs to fix this' -> (this summer) 'I need to fix this' -> (right now) 'I gave it everything I have and nothing changes.'

Right now, they are feeling the same way the fan base feels and it is reflected in their play. Let's see how they move past it.

I just remember Avs fans shredding Nathan MacKinnon in the same fashion, while he was healthy, for that 48 point Avs season, and getting on him for similar lapses in the 15-16 season the year before. 

Suddenly, with a functional team built around him such that the hockey was important and the team was pulling their own weight around him the next three years, those discussions are long forgotten

I hope the Sabres can build their team to that point before it all needs to be flushed. I'm less and less confident this will happen with each passing season 

[PASabreFan]

1 hour ago, Brawndo said:

This is from the Athletic’s Tim Graham.

The last paragraph is contradictory to the “Starting Today the Sole Purpose of The Buffalo Sabres is to win The Stanley Cup” and I’ll drill another well opening press conference. 

An answer to fortifying the Sabres’ front office would be to spend money to make those lieutenant jobs more attractive to top scouts with better credentials. But with rumblings of more personnel cutbacks across Pegula Sports and Entertainment offices, a substantial cash infusion into hockey operations seems unlikely.

Interesting. I don't suppose we can find out what those guys make vs. the league average and whether the Sabres underpay. The last sentence seems like a logical disconnect and sheer speculation. It seems to be saying if Jason went to Terry and said we need to pay more for front office staff, Terry would say no, we're tightening the belt at PSE. I'm not sure I buy that.

[Brawndo]

54 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Interesting. I don't suppose we can find out what those guys make vs. the league average and whether the Sabres underpay. The last sentence seems like a logical disconnect and sheer speculation. It seems to be saying if Jason went to Terry and said we need to pay more for front office staff, Terry would say no, we're tightening the belt at PSE. I'm not sure I buy that.

The counter argument to this would be during the Sale of The Bills to the Pegulas, Tim Graham was spot on with his reporting of the Pegulas Activities leading up to and the conclusion of the sale. His contact very well might have been Russ Brandon, but some of other information sounded as if it came directly from them. The question remains who Graham is getting information from. 

In terms of salary Steve Greeley did not take the job in Carolina because the Salary would have been a pay cut from his AGM Salary with the Sabres.

Ultimately Botterill has the staff that he wanted with him. I’m more worried that the New GM whether they are hired this summer or next will want to expand the analytics department and be told no. 

[darksabre]

Drill another welp 

[LTS]

6 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

I haven't watched the last 2 games, but historically, Reinhart is absolutely up there in terms of willingness to get the puck on the boards, and in fact, I'd put all the money I have on him being quantitatively better at it than anyone else on this team over a large span of time. He's superb at using his stick and shins to protect the puck, and has the skill to actuallly find a teammate when he gets free again, rather than just flipping it further down the boards for someone else to try and fight for.

I 100% agree with you.  And the problem has been that lately Reinhart has not been that engaged.  As with others...

4 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

I understand the frustration this causes, but I also don't think people watch other players/teams with the same critical eye that they do their own players/teams when things get bad. 

Because there isn't a player on the planet that is immune to three or four games of this

This is also true, but the Sabres don't have the talent to overcome this where other teams do.  They can't take games off.  The overall tendency has been to drift into a conservative shell (all lines) but some have been doing it a bit TOO often.  It all starts with the leaders and if Eichel is going to pull his attitude, as he has been, then there will be others that see that and respond accordingly.

It has to change.. when they are hard on the puck they are far more successful, all the way around. 

[PerreaultForever]

8 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Lol the old and boring "the kids are lazy" motif. 

This team isn't good because it's not talented enough. 

It's a hard one to want to face isn't it? maybe it's "old and boring" because it's true.

It takes something special to stay consistently bad. If the owners never realize/or admit to their mistakes it will take some miracles to change things. Even if we add talent somehow, that talent won't give you what you expect. Just more Skinners doing less than they're worth. So keep preaching about how all we need is a 2C plays one or two players, or whatever your not tired motif is these days and then switch it to something else when that fails as well and maybe one day you too will see that tired and boring motifs are not necessarily wrong.

Truly, I hope you are right and I am wrong, because yours is a lot easier to fix than mine.

[Pimlach]

On 3/6/2020 at 6:47 PM, PerreaultForever said:

Ya this, but I think that goes to the owner as well.

We lost the work hard lunch bucket aesthetic of the red black and white era and replaced it with an idea of spend and you will win, pamper the athletes and they will come here and perform and focus on star power. As it failed and unravelled it set the foundation for a losing culture or laziness.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't some of the early stuff Pegula did was add a bunch of luxuries to an upgraded locker room? I don't remember the specifics, but as well as saying spend on FAs (money which was quickly wasted on bad choices) didn't he make "improvements" to the players room, etc.? The place became a country club and working hard went out the window. Then drafting players who lacked in the work hard department just fueled this until it started to burn out of control. 

After which the ownership has gone through a series of people with the idea of being with the times and trends rather than building an old style hockey team that competes and wins. So in the end it fails on all levels but definitely starts at the top. 

You can’t build an “old style “ team anymore.  The players are different today.  Even the Blues, Flyers, Caps, Bruins are not “old style”.  Its just that they have size and speed and they have players that work hard, set the example, and expect everyone else to follow. 

[bunomatic]

3 hours ago, Pimlach said:

You can’t build an “old style “ team anymore.  The players are different today.  Even the Blues, Flyers, Caps, Bruins are not “old style”.  Its just that they have size and speed and they have players that work hard, set the example, and expect everyone else to follow. 

You forgot grit, determination and never say die.