Patrick Kane: [Updated] D.A. Decides Not to Prosecute; NHL Determines Claims "Unfounded"

[Hoss]

when it comes to witness testimony or any evidence, the first threshold is relevance. Is the evidence supportive of the truth of the matter asserted. If relevant, it must pass a second test and be admissible. Certain evidence can be relevant but lack credibility to the point that introduction would be unfair to the party against whom it is introduced. Hearsay is the classic example because the offering witness lacks first hand knowledge. If evidence is inadmissible, there are exceptions such as effect on the Listener etc. In your example, I can see little relevance in Croce's testimony in a criminal trial. A civil matter maybe. Keep digging.

it is more about brand equity than cash for services. He was tweeting about the cup coming to his establishment before the incident broke. He was leveraging media, albeit social, to leverage celebrity to his advantage. After the news broke he had the choice to distance himself or put more chips in the pot. He tried to do both.

Thanks for the info on the first. That's along the lines of what I assumed when writing the post you responded to. And well said on the second post.

[PASabreFan]

I agree with you that just because she goes to his house isn't an invitation for sex. But there is such thing as common sense and personal responsibililty. Are you going to feel bad for me if I go to Overtown at 4AM with $5,000 in my wallet, my laptop under my arm, cell phone in pocket and come back empty handed with my throat slit? You shouldn't because it was stupid on my part for doing it. There are some things you just don't do if you know there might be consequences that you won't like. That doesn't give Kane the right, but this never would have happened if she used some common sense. It seems like nowadays nobody is ever held accountable for not using common sense.

 

The problem with your theory is that being raped is not a foreseeable outcome of going to a man's house for a late-night party. Especially given that she (apparently) was taking a friend along and would have assumed others would be present. And the invitation came from a superstar athlete, not some dude she met at a truck stop. If she was raped, the only fair and decent thing to say is, she wouldn't have been raped if Kane hadn't raped her. She bears no responsibility.

[TrueBlueGED]

You're right, nobody is saying Kane is guity. And I never said anybody did. But, very few are willing to acknlowledge that this women might have an ulterior motive. In fact throughout this entire thread, any time the direction turns in favor of Kane the majority have come to her defense like a motive isn't even a possibility.

 

I agree with you that just because she goes to his house isn't an invitation for sex. But there is such thing as common sense and personal responsibililty. Are you going to feel bad for me if I go to Overtown at 4AM with $5,000 in my wallet, my laptop under my arm, cell phone in pocket and come back empty handed with my throat slit? You shouldn't because it was stupid on my part for doing it. There are some things you just don't do if you know there might be consequences that you won't like. That doesn't give Kane the right, but this never would have happened if she used some common sense. It seems like nowadays nobody is ever held accountable for not using common sense.

 

A failure to prosecute isn't the equivalent of innocence...... nor is it the equivalent of guilt. People abuse the system every single day to make a buck. People make millions every day with frivilous lawsuits and settlements. Companies aren't willing to spend the money and time on a lawsuit if somebody tries to him them up for $5,000,000 for tripping on a curb. If Kane didn't do anything but doesn't want to drag this out, of course he'll settle just to get it over with. Why? Because he can.

 

I'm not implying that this is the case, that this woman is looking to make a buck. I just wish people here would admit that it just might be a possibility. Like somebody said earlier, the older I get, the less I trust society to do the right thing.

Even if I agreed with your sentiment here (and I couldn't possibly disagree more)... isn't being raped enough accountability? Does public shaming really have to be piled on top of that to satisfy you?

[tom webster]

when it comes to witness testimony or any evidence, the first threshold is relevance. Is the evidence supportive of the truth of the matter asserted. If relevant, it must pass a second test and be admissible. Certain evidence can be relevant but lack credibility to the point that introduction would be unfair to the party against whom it is introduced. Hearsay is the classic example because the offering witness lacks first hand knowledge. If evidence is inadmissible, there are exceptions such as effect on the Listener etc. In your example, I can see little relevance in Croce's testimony in a criminal trial. A civil matter maybe. Keep digging.

it is more about brand equity than cash for services. He was tweeting about the cup coming to his establishment before the incident broke. He was leveraging media, albeit social, to leverage celebrity to his advantage. After the news broke he had the choice to distance himself or put more chips in the pot. He tried to do both.

I'm not arguing any of this. Others tried to imply that this catering gig or even the cancelled party was vital to him and that's just ridiculous.

Considering Kane was to have a private party at SkyBar last night before this all came out and after Croce and Kane spent time together a week ago, he knew. Do you REALLY think that a rich business owner in a city with little in the way of "celebrities" isn't aware when his business has the opportunity to cater to (more than just food) a millionaire? Come on now.

Do you realize how much this guy has going on? I have a tenth of that going on and have found out only afterwards when certain "celebrities" did business with one of my companies.

That being said, I acknowledge that he might have known but that the notion that the party was a reason to come to his defense is laughable.

[JJFIVEOH]

Even if I agreed with your sentiment here (and I couldn't possibly disagree more)... isn't being raped enough accountability? Does public shaming really have to be piled on top of that to satisfy you?

 

We seem to have conflicting definitions of 'accountability'. Mine applies to not going to a house of the opposite sex when he's by himself after you've met him in a bar and then be surprised when something bad happens. Mine applies to being thrown in prison if you physically force yourself on somebody and rape them.

 

We also seem to have conflicting definitions of 'shaming' and 'possibilities'. I'll be sure to pick myself up a Webster.

[3putt]

TW, I was simply pointing out that the value of association was his skin in the game. You are right that the party planners could have ordered food online.

We seem to have conflicting definitions of 'accountability'. Mine applies to not going to a house of the opposite sex when he's by himself after you've met him in a bar and then be surprised when something bad happens. Mine applies to being thrown in prison if you physically force yourself on somebody and rape them.

 

We also seem to have conflicting definitions of 'shaming' and 'possibilities'. I'll be sure to pick myself up a Webster.

if the BN is to be believed she didn't go there alone. Is an escort from Triple Canopy your threshold of acountability?

[tom webster]

TW, I was simply pointing out that the value of association was his skin in the game. You are right that the party planners could have ordered food online.

if the BN is to be believed she didn't go there alone. Is an escort from Triple Canopy your threshold of acountability?

I agree that there is value although I'd argue not enough to justify the heat he is taking now for those comments.

[JJFIVEOH]

The problem with your theory is that being raped is not a foreseeable outcome of going to a man's house for a late-night party. Especially given that she (apparently) was taking a friend along and would have assumed others would be present. And the invitation came from a superstar athlete, not some dude she met at a truck stop. If she was raped, the only fair and decent thing to say is, she wouldn't have been raped if Kane hadn't raped her. She bears no responsibility.

 

Rape isn't, but sex usually is. What do you think happens when two people meet in a bar and agree to go back to his place after some drinks? Think they're going to play a board game? If she was raped, she did not deserve it and Kane needs to be held accountable. But she can't possibly be stupid enough to go back to his place thinking that sex wasn't somewhere in the equation. My god, I knew that before I was old enough to physically have sex much less old enough to be in a bar........... or at least be old enough to pass as the picture in your fake ID.

 

You don't know she assumed there would be others present, except her other female friend. That is itself makes it even worse.

 

I'm beating a dead horse, society is going to hell because people get a pass for not using common sense. So many bad situations can be avoided if people just used it.

[Hoss]

That being said, I acknowledge that he might have known but that the notion that the party was a reason to come to his defense is laughable.

You remind me of a younger me (from a time like five seconds ago) as you continue to force in words like "ridiculous" and "laughable" about the opinions of others.

 

He claims to have no skin in this yet had a photograph hanging on Kane wit a caption bragging about Kane being there and bragging about him coming back. He has skin in this on multiple levels. Nobody is saying his life, fortune or self-worth depend on Kane. But he's got "a skin" in this.

I agree that there is value although I'd argue not enough to justify the heat he is taking now for those comments.

There was no reason to comment outside of pushing his own interests. It was in his best overall interest to keep quiet. It was in his best business interest to make those comments.

But you agreeing that there is value proves that the opinion on the flipside aren't "laughable" or "ridiculous". How can they be if you agree with them?

Edited August 9, 2015 by Hoss

[Eleven]

You remind me of a younger me (from a time like five seconds ago) as you continue to force in words like "ridiculous" and "laughable" about the opinions of others.

 

He claims to have no skin in this yet had a photograph hanging on Kane wit a caption bragging about Kane being there and bragging about him coming back. He has skin in this on multiple levels. Nobody is saying his life, fortune or self-worth depend on Kane. But he's got "a skin" in this.

There was no reason to comment outside of pushing his own interests. It was in his best overall interest to keep quiet. It was in his best business interest to make those comments.

But you agreeing that there is value proves that the opinion on the flipside aren't "laughable" or "ridiculous". How can they be if you agree with them?

 

 

Sending you a PM.

[tom webster]

You remind me of a younger me (from a time like five seconds ago) as you continue to force in words like "ridiculous" and "laughable" about the opinions of others.

 

He claims to have no skin in this yet had a photograph hanging on Kane wit a caption bragging about Kane being there and bragging about him coming back. He has skin in this on multiple levels. Nobody is saying his life, fortune or self-worth depend on Kane. But he's got "a skin" in this.

 

There was no reason to comment outside of pushing his own interests. It was in his best overall interest to keep quiet. It was in his best business interest to make those comments.

But you agreeing that there is value proves that the opinion on the flipside aren't "laughable" or "ridiculous". How can they be if you agree with them?

I stand by the adjectives I used as they pertain to the specific instance I'm referring to.

Some other words of advice, you may want to retract that "cars loaded with Sky Bar food" quote.

[Fidelio]

There are a LOT of dots to connect there and I'm not sure she could do it.

 

 

I'm sure he's not even there that late on a Saturday unless there's a celeb in the joint.

 

 

Look at his quote.  It implies nothing other than she was interested in him--and we don't even know if it's the same young woman.  I guess if that's the "looking for something" that you're deriving, fine, but I'm guessing you mean more.

 

I think this is all nonsense, and I'd love to know what her father's occupation would have to do with anything.  Are you saying that because he's a lawyer (which I'll continue to believe Hoss on that one), that he and his daughter are up to something shrewd?

 

I was actually trying to add a bit of levity, provoke some pseudo silliness, but this thread has escalated with other users becoming agitated and aggressive so I'm gunna go watch Commando.... 

 

Peace out Col. Matrix

Oh and this

[darksabre]

I was actually trying to add a bit of levity, provoke some pseudo silliness, but this thread has escalated with other users becoming agitated and aggressive so I'm gunna go watch Commando....

 

This thread doesn't need your dumb attempts at levity. Bye bye.

[Hoss]

I stand by the adjectives I used as they pertain to the specific instance I'm referring to.

Some other words of advice, you may want to retract that "cars loaded with Sky Bar food" quote.

It seems like every time we get into a discussion you feel backed into a corner and offer some unsolicited advice. Again: I do not want it.

Also, I'm okay with regurgitating what has been reported.

[JJFIVEOH]

I was actually trying to add a bit of levity, provoke some pseudo silliness, but this thread has escalated with other users becoming agitated and aggressive so I'm gunna go watch Commando.... 

 

Peace out Col. Matrix

Oh and this

 

I'm not agitated, I wouldn't be here if I was.

[tom webster]

It seems like every time we get into a discussion you feel backed into a corner and offer some unsolicited advice. Again: I do not want it.

Also, I'm okay with regurgitating what has been reported.

I'm not backed into any corner and as I have stated I have no problem with you regurgitating info but when it is incorrect you may want to distance yourself from it

[PASabreFan]

This thread doesn't need your dumb attempts at levity. Bye bye.

May I try? You can't wear shorts below the knees at SkyBar. I just got lectured by my nephew the other day for wearing shorts that ended above the knees. I'm not hip to the scene or anything, but I'm pretty sure young guys trying to look good aren't wearing "short shorts" to a place like that.

[MattPie]

We seem to have conflicting definitions of 'accountability'. Mine applies to not going to a house of the opposite sex when he's by himself after you've met him in a bar and then be surprised when something bad happens. Mine applies to being thrown in prison if you physically force yourself on somebody and rape them.

 

We also seem to have conflicting definitions of 'shaming' and 'possibilities'. I'll be sure to pick myself up a Webster.

Rape isn't, but sex usually is. What do you think happens when two people meet in a bar and agree to go back to his place after some drinks? Think they're going to play a board game? If she was raped, she did not deserve it and Kane needs to be held accountable. But she can't possibly be stupid enough to go back to his place thinking that sex wasn't somewhere in the equation. My god, I knew that before I was old enough to physically have sex much less old enough to be in a bar........... or at least be old enough to pass as the picture in your fake ID.

 

You don't know she assumed there would be others present, except her other female friend. That is itself makes it even worse.

 

I'm beating a dead horse, society is going to hell because people get a pass for not using common sense. So many bad situations can be avoided if people just used it.

Dude, it is NEVER THE VICTIM'S FAULT IF THERE'S A RAPE. It doesn't matter when, where, or how they got there. EDIT: I re-read your posts and I see you're kind of saying that. But it doesn't matter if she went back to his house expecting Scrabble, Connect 4, or sex; as soon as she was unhappy with the situation that's it.

 

----

 

Re: Croce: he's saying (I think) he didn't over-serve Kane. Can the same be said of the women? Are there legal ramifications if someone is served too much at a bar and they are injured by another party?

Edited August 9, 2015 by MattPie

[Hoss]

I'm not backed into any corner and as I have stated I have no problem with you regurgitating info but when it is incorrect you may want to distance yourself from it

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/3f82ffcf17c64fe598d47c7feb73cc4f/under-police-investigation-blackhawks-kane-hires-lawyer

 

May have been one car loaded with the bar's food. I was under the impression it was multiple. But that's simply not worth trying whatever it is you're trying.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Hoss

[JJFIVEOH]

Dude, it is NEVER THE VICTIM'S FAULT IF THERE'S A RAPE. It doesn't matter when, where, or how they got there.

 

----

 

Re: Croce: he's saying (I think) he didn't over-serve Kane. Can the same be said of the women? Are there legal ramifications if someone is served too much at a bar and they are injured by another party?

 

I never said it wasn't their fault being raped. I said it was their fault they didn't use common sense to avoid a situation like that altogether.

 

She voluntarily went to his house, with a witness...........................

It's a 'blame somebody else' society. Why not find a way to blame the driver for taking her there? Can we blame the beer company for having alcohol in their drinks? If she wasn't 21, let's find a way to blame the person that made the fake ID. Should we blame the bartender who doesn't have the benefit of testing each person's BAC before giving them another drink?

 

Personal responsibility................. it's an endangered species.

Edited August 9, 2015 by JJFIVEOH

[PASabreFan]

I never said it wasn't their fault being raped. I said it was their fault they didn't use common sense to avoid a situation like that altogether.

 

She voluntarily went to his house, with a witness...........................

It's a 'blame somebody else' society. Why not find a way to blame the driver for taking her there? Can we blame the beer company for having alcohol in their drinks? If she wasn't 21, let's find a way to blame the person that made the fake ID. Should we blame the bartender who doesn't have the benefit of testing each person's BAC before giving them another drink?

 

Personal responsibility................. it's an endangered species.

How about all those people who went to work at the World Trade Center on the morning of 9/11, knowing that it had been a target of terrorists years before and remained such a target?

Edited August 9, 2015 by PASabreFan

[Fidelio]

How about all those people who went to work at the World Trade Center on the morning of 9/11, knowing that it had been a target of terrorists years before and remained such a target?

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[JJFIVEOH]

How about all those people who went to work at the World Trade Center on the morning of 9/11, knowing that it had been a target of terrorists years before and remained such a target?

 

That's not even remotely similar.

 

What do you think goes through the minds of two people who have been flirting at a bar all night, when one of them asks 'You wanna go back to my place'?

[Hoss]

That's not even remotely similar.

 

What do you think goes through the minds of two people who have been flirting at a bar all night, when one of them asks 'You wanna go back to my place'?

You realize that it isn't just no holds barred after initial consent, right? There is just so much gray area right now that you attempting to push personal responsibility is premature and distasteful.

[JJFIVEOH]

You realize that it isn't just no holds barred after initial consent, right? There is just so much gray area right now that you attempting to push personal responsibility is premature and distasteful.

 

Of course it's not and there is a ton of gray area. But there are a couple of things we do know about. 1. She was at the bar with him. 2. He asked her back to his place. 3. She agreed to go. 4. I've already covered what most people already know happens when somebody asks you back to their place. She went there knowing sex would be somewhere in the realm of possibilities. With that said, yes, there is a level of personal responsibility right there.

 

And don't tell me my posts are distasteful after you just got through lecturing Tom Webster about using the words "ridiculous" and "laughable" when describing somebody's opinion. You have a bad habit of being critical of what people have to say and how they say it without heeding your own advice.